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  1. #1
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    Default How do you tell the difference between e4 envy and regular envy?

    Is it just a matter of frequency or is there something more at play here?

    I get the sense that envy is a cognitive lens that colors a 4's every judgment but I don't know what that actually means or how it's experienced or what sets it apart from regular old envy where you look at someone else's circumstances or talents and wish you had them.

    4s and non-4s, you can also post stories of how you experience envy here. I like stories.

  2. #2
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    It's difficult to stand other people's happiness. You can imagine what it's like around social gatherings of joyous occasions, ie weddings, etc. I usually exclude myself lol. Of course this seeps itself into other aspects of life, but I'm not gonna reveal everything. It's something I've always tried to deny, even so far as to create a sort of counter envy attitude towards. It's why the type has issues with superiority/inferiority. It stems from this... the envy/counter-envy. It's been frequently associated with a longing. I would personally describe it as a starving.

    Anyways, cool thread. It actually got me thinking about the other passions again.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
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    I think 4s perfect the combination of shame+envy+self loathing where the three are alway combined. The envy is never isolated for 4s like it is with other types.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

  4. #4
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    I've seen a lot of envy in others and would say almost all of it is completely unrelated to the 4 type. How it's different, I'm not entirely sure.

    I don't know what others see of my own envy. I wouldn't even call myself a naturally envious person. While I don't deny the type fix, I just don't particularly identify with the term, at least not literally. For me I see it as related to my inclination to fantasise about my life, to idealise a better, future self, the desire to be special - and then feeling disappointed at these things often not working out. Most of this I keep to myself, but then maybe 4w3s and/or extroverts would be more expressive of it. I will admit I do whine about it on occasion, but it's usually only when people specifically ask me about such things. It almost never descends into jealousy and resentment towards others. I feel genuinely happy for others when something good happens to them. I might secretly wish the same thing to happen for myself or feel inferior because I fail to achieve the same level, but that's just me, it has nothing to do with the other person or how I feel towards them.

    You want a specific situation so here's one: I've applied for a lot of jobs without getting them. These are jobs I think I would be really good at, that I know I could do better than probably all the other people that are applying for the job. I know that I'm intelligent, capable, hard-working, qualified etc, and when I continually don't get these jobs I start to get a bit bitter about it. I think about the person that got that job and how they won't value it, that they won't work hard or will just take it on for a brief time before quitting. I think how that person will probably have got it through nepotism and networking, or because they right the perfect CV or cover letter, or because they went to the interview and charmed the pants off the employers, or because they're a really convincing liar. It pisses me off because it doesn't really matter if you're the intelligent, or hard-working, or best person for the job; what matters is how well you can bullshit your way into that job. But that envy isn't for a real person. If I met the person that got the job over me, I wouldn't hate them or hold it against them. I'm envying an imaginary person; I'm angry at the theory of it. And in reality, the person I'm actually upset with, is me. I'm failing to live up to a idealised, fantasy version of myself who can charm and win people over, whose talent/virtues are recognised and appreciated, and who gets what she deserves in life.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #5
    Senior Member prplchknz's Avatar
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    I know I've been envious but i don't remember how or why or what
    In no likes experiment.

    that is all

    i dunno what else to say so

  6. #6
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    I've only felt envy in two scenarios and both involved feeling deeply dismissed. I think I've mostly gotten past both. The first is with a romantic partner when I feel like he isn't as in to me as I'm invested in him. I then fear he is in to someone else instead. The second is related to my profession because when I was younger I didn't have any opportunities, so I used to feel envy towards those who get ahead because of more opportunity. I've worked through that because I realize I can be of more help to others who had fewer opportunities like me. I'm more relatable to more people because of my background.

    I find that empathy makes it easier to correct for envy because you can connect to others happiness in success and feel part of it as you own - if that makes sense.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  7. #7
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I've seen a lot of envy in others and would say almost all of it is completely unrelated to the 4 type. How it's different, I'm not entirely sure.

    I'm not entirely sure what others see of my own envy. I wouldn't even call myself a naturally envious person. While I don't deny the type fix, I just don't particularly identify with the term, at least not literally. For me I see it as related to my inclination to fantasise about my life, to idealise a better, future self, the desire to be special - and then feeling disappointed at these things often not working out. Most of this I keep to myself, but then maybe 4w3s and/or extroverts would be more expressive of it. I will admit I do whine about it on occasion, but it's usually only when people specifically ask me about such things. It almost never descends into jealousy and resentment towards others. I feel genuinely happy for others when something good happens to them. I might secretly wish the same thing to happen for myself or feel inferior because I fail to achieve the same level, but that's just me, it has nothing to do with the other person or how I feel towards them.
    I agree with this, and most applies to me as well. I had a hard time seeing myself as envious when I first learned that aspect of 4s & enneagram, because I rarely experience jealousy in the usual usage. I have no desire to take from others, sabotage them, or gain at their expense. I am not catty at all. I love when my female friends are beautiful & smart & talented - I am proud to call them a friend. I admire other people who are unique, brilliant, interesting, etc. So I scoffed at the idea of being envious at first.

    But a little deeper consideration & I saw how envy very much twisted my view of reality. I do not often envy actual individuals. It's more like an over all feeling of being defective and/or "overlooked by life" in some way while other people (no one specific again, just "other people") are more functional, accepted, likable, etc, and find it easier to be happy & fulfilled in life. I feel like other peope naturally have that "thing" I am missing, a thing I can never quite pinpoint. Resentment is born when those people seem less, well, unique (yes I hate that term & over-association with 4s, but it's the best I can do ATM). The sense of being defective & unique go hand-in-hand, and the unique aspect is actually often fed by others reactions to you (gifted intellectually, talented artistically, preciously insightful, etc). But because you conflate the two, you hold onto the flaws like your strengths are attached to them, which allows you to feel there is an unfairness in more "ordinary" people finding love or happiness (or whatever you're fixated on "missing") just because they lack your flaws, when they also don't have your uniqueness. I envy the ease of "ordinariness", but resent that I cannot be weirdo me & still have what the ordinary have. Normality is something I scoff at & desperately want on some level (I am not really weird or abnormal outwardly; it's a sense of an inner grotesqueness). And while some will envy your ease in uniqueness, an ability to just be different without trying in an authentic way, somehow you still feel like a fraud, like it's just shallow & meaningless anyway. The "simple" things the ordinary have look more fulfilling - the friendships, the romances, the satisfaction with their work. I envy a contentment I cannot seem to cultivate within myself.

    So the more aware I have become of this mindset, I do see how I have resented other people though, resented their happiness to the point of not being able to stomach seeing it or hearing about it. I think it's the sx-y 4s who experience more seething. It's almost similar to e1 righteous anger, cuz there's a sense of injustice about it. SK's job interview example highlights how resentment manifests; an idea that there's been some overlooking of you in favor of someone less deserving (and I've had that feelin gafter many a job interview myself). This can be self-experienced & demonstrated outwardly in the personality as elitism, self-pity, giving up before trying, etc.

    Again, sx-y 4s have a more fiery resentment whereas sx last like SK seem sort of SAD. 4s kind of range between the two when it comes to how envy is experienced emotionally. It rarely looks or feels like jealousy or wanting to have something at the expense of someone else; that's just not what it is. My envy is also often experiences as a wistful sadness, a perpetual longing for some void I can't quite define, a dull ache - not a burning jealousy. Sometimes I feel an angry frustration too though - that righteous anger. I aso can feel alienated from others, those not "missing" that essential component I seem to be missing; they cannot understand me then.

    4s often consciously experience envy as rejection of what others are/like/do as "mundane" or just beneath them somehow. They don't envy, but scorn. The envy aspect is that they'll resent that whatever it is they are scorning is somehow more appreciated by others, that it's given a significance it doesn't "deserve".

    Some examples:

    - When I was a child, I was annoyed when someone I deemed not as smart as me was given the same grade as me on a project in school. I guess I felt it diminished my accomplishment, or something, especially when this person might be raved over for their one-off A while I churned the As out to little fanfare because it became expected of me. I never resented people as I saw as equals or better.

    - As an adult, I'll feel resentment when someone I see as less or equally talented has an opportunity to do something I'd like to do, and it's less something they've earned than a circumstantial opportunity (or so it appears). I have a sense of being "cursed" then.

    - I can envy people who "connect" easily with others - form relationships from friendships to professional networks, etc. I always feel like I have a hurdle to overcome with others - bad first impressions & general discomfort with my demeanor - before I can form any bond. I always feel like I'm working against some automatic prejudice and that there's this invisible wall blocking me from people.

    Hm, I think you could say that what is envied is often the meaning & significance given to things/people more than people or things in themselves.

    I will add that, intellectually, I know none of the above is really *true*. But emotionally, it still colors my reality. I've had to be very emotionally honest with myself to see & admit this. Now that it's in awareness, it feels almost stronger, but then so do I. It's like I know the size of the beast I am fighting at least.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It almost never descends into jealousy and resentment towards others. I feel genuinely happy for others when something good happens to them. I might secretly wish the same thing to happen for myself or feel inferior because I fail to achieve the same level, but that's just me, it has nothing to do with the other person or how I feel towards them.
    You must be an incredibly healthy person. Envy, in the case of 4s, even in average health, does not come across as that nice. At least not in how I experience it (I'm open to mistype for myself) or what I've observed in others. Perhaps it is the instinct stacking as Orange alluded to or a trifix difference. Hostility ain't no foreign matter to the passion of envy.

  9. #9
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You must be an incredibly healthy person. Envy, in the case of 4s, even in average health, does not come across as that nice. At least not in how I experience it (I'm open to mistype for myself) or what I've observed in others. Perhaps it is the instinct stacking as Orange alluded to or a trifix difference. Hostility ain't no foreign matter to the passion of envy.
    Hmm.

    What is your instinct stacking and your wing?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  10. #10
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    You must be an incredibly healthy person. Envy, in the case of 4s, even in average health, does not come across as that nice. At least not in how I experience it (I'm open to mistype for myself) or what I've observed in others. Perhaps it is the instinct stacking as Orange alluded to or a trifix difference. Hostility ain't no foreign matter to the passion of envy.
    Did you read SK's whole post? I think you did, but perhaps are not noting the bit of inconsistency with her claim & then her later description of her reaction to not getting a job. Does it sound like genuine happiness for the success of someone else? Sure, she says it's not directed at a real person, but some idea of an unfair reality, and then more deeply, a disappointment with herself. I agree with that as typical 4.

    I still wonder how much some 4s go into envy denial, because I certainly have done that. I have not been conscious of any envy stirred by real people at times, not connecting bouts of sadness or a sense of inferiority as an outsider looking in with ENVY. I still consciously experience envy more at an idea of other people than specific people. But I have identified in retrospect when real people have triggered envy, but they often just get absorbed into some general idea of reality than focused on specifically. It's more like PROOF that my negative view is real.

    The reason many 4s don't tend to direct envy hate at specific individuals they know is because they know those people. Their relationship with them triggers their empathy, which is a great way 4s get a better grasp of reality - seeing that others feel alienated, disappointed, unfulfilled, etc, also. You can't begrudge success to someone you relate to; it may even give "hope". If you still feel sad, then it's because you DO relate to that person yet wonder why happiness alludes you & not them. There's no direct envy then so much as that disappointment with yourself.

    This increasingly principled attitude shows positive 1 integration also (and perhaps positive 2 traits also). In an average 4, you have this principled "disgust" for envy and enviousness permeating your entire consciousness existing side by side, which can lead to SHAME. This is why envy can feel more like sadness and disappointment with yourself than rage at others.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

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