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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Hmm.

    What is your instinct stacking and your wing?
    3w and strong sp. So much so that it mutes out the other instincts, but leaning towards sp/sx. Probably the more closed-off, insulated, mood/aesthetic prissiness, over-indulgent stack, in combination with core 4. Finally got some grasp on the whole dauntless 4 thang.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Did you read SK's whole post? I think you did, but perhaps are not noting the bit of inconsistency with her claim & then her later description of her reaction to not getting a job. Does it sound like genuine happiness for the success of someone else? Sure, she says it's not directed at a real person, but some idea of an unfair reality, and then more deeply, a disappointment with herself. I agree with that as typical 4.
    You're right, I missed that. It's just regardless of what she said afterwards, the not feeling much resentment part is what confuses me. Even you mentioned experiencing resentment despite your initial attitude with envy. I do agree that it's likely the way sx-last plays out attitude-wise. I also think different life circumstances and environmental factors bring out the fixations in different ways, plus personality is more complex than I'm making it out to be.

    I still wonder how much some 4s go into envy denial, because I certainly have done that. I have not been conscious of any envy stirred by real people at times, not connecting bouts of sadness or a sense of inferiority as an outsider looking in with ENVY. I still consciously experience envy more at an idea of other people than specific people. But I have identified in retrospect when real people have triggered envy, but they often just get absorbed into some general idea of reality than focused on specifically. It's more like PROOF that my negative view is real.
    I suppose that's the big difference between you, Southern Kross, and I. It isn't as subtle compared to the way you both described it. Envy has always been glaringly obvious to me. I don't like to admit it, but I can't deny it either. What you mentioned of how envy plays out is not unfamiliar though. I saw envy in myself in the way I reacted towards certain situations, in my inability to appreciate, to feel a sense of genuine joy for others successes/happiness. Seeing this in others, makes the void in me more glaring. I don't sabotage others, as I see that being more sx-first, perhaps indicative of a core ID driven/assertive type. But admittedly at some level deep within my person, I secretly wanted others to fall flat on their faces, to have the world crumble on them, and that makes me less lonely, happy even. It doesn't feel particularly good to admit as it's a petty and unglamorous attitude. Above all, I think the description on the R&H site, the Enneagram Institute I believe, is reflective of my attitude. There's an excerpt there...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enneagram Institute
    Leigh is a working mother who has struggled with these difficult feelings for many years.

    "I collapse when I am out in the world. I have had a trail of relationship disasters. I have hated my sister’s goodness—and hated goodness in general. I went years without joy in my life, just pretending to smile because real smiles would not come to me. I have had a constant longing for whatever I cannot have. My longings can never become fulfilled because I now realize that I am attached to ‘the longing’ and not to any specific end result.”
    And this...

    Quote Originally Posted by Enneagram Institute
    There is a Sufi story that relates to this about an old dog that had been badly abused and was near starvation. One day, the dog found a bone, carried it to a safe spot, and started gnawing away. The dog was so hungry that it chewed on the bone for a long time and got every last bit of nourishment that it could out of it. After some time, a kind old man noticed the dog and its pathetic scrap and began quietly setting food out for it. But the poor hound was so attached to its bone that it refused to let go of it and soon starved to death.
    It's the hostility that I was referring to.

  2. #12
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    Thanks for your insights, everyone. It's made for interesting reading.

    One theme that sticks out to me is that envy is rarely directed towards a real person but is a more general state of dissatisfaction with yourself and the privileges you lack. So how do you differentiate between envy and just plain dissatisfaction with your own circumstances?

    I don't know, I identify with a lot of these things but as a 9, I have a tendency to universalize qualities and look for common ground in all things. I think 4s have an almost diametrically opposite point of view and identify the unique very quickly. I want to be able to do that.
    @OrangeAppled, thanks for the bit about how sx-4s vibe as fired up on resentment and sx-last 4s seem sad. I hadn't thought to pick up on that but based on what I've seen, it's seems true, especially of sp/so.

  3. #13
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    1w2 speaking:

    I get angry when the undeserving are rewarded and the deserving aren't. Sometimes, maybe one time out of fifty or a hundred, those feelings are envy sneakily disguised as righteous rage.

    That's all I can think of at the moment. I have pretty much zero experience with 4 except that I disintegrate to 4 and have a 4 wing in my heart fix. No type 4 friends IRL.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



    ESTJ - LSE - ESTj (mbti/socionics)
    1w2/7w6/3w4 so/sx (enneagram)
    want to ask me something? go for it!

  4. #14
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Thanks for your insights, everyone. It's made for interesting reading.

    One theme that sticks out to me is that envy is rarely directed towards a real person but is a more general state of dissatisfaction with yourself and the privileges you lack. So how do you differentiate between envy and just plain dissatisfaction with your own circumstances?

    I don't know, I identify with a lot of these things but as a 9, I have a tendency to universalize qualities and look for common ground in all things. I think 4s have an almost diametrically opposite point of view and identify the unique very quickly. I want to be able to do that.
    @OrangeAppled, thanks for the bit about how sx-4s vibe as fired up on resentment and sx-last 4s seem sad. I hadn't thought to pick up on that but based on what I've seen, it's seems true, especially of sp/so.
    4s tend to notice what is different about them from others & what is missing in situations (including their life). The focus is on voids. This is why the 4 generally feels defective or broken, and that this is preventing them from having the intrinsic significance others have. It's a sense of not being "whole" and everything in life is viewed through that lens - of missing some essential piece that would make it meaningful.

    All types experience the fix of the others, but it's a matter of what is the ego, what is your lens for reality, not just a feeling you have sometimes.

    I mean, everyone gets scared or angry or lustful, etc.

    One thing which distinguishes 4s is the perpetual sense that others have what they do not, and that they don't have it because of something terribly wrong with them. Circumstances are not just bad, they're indicative of you being bad at core.


    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    1w2 speaking:

    I get angry when the undeserving are rewarded and the deserving aren't. Sometimes, maybe one time out of fifty or a hundred, those feelings are envy sneakily disguised as righteous rage.

    That's all I can think of at the moment. I have pretty much zero experience with 4 except that I disintegrate to 4 and have a 4 wing in my heart fix. No type 4 friends IRL.
    I don't naturally gravitate towards 1s, but I know a lot now through my church in just the past year or so. Admittedly they would have irritated me just a few years ago. I'd like to see it as a sign of maturity now :P.

    And there's a direct connection between the righteous anger of the 1 & envious anger of the 4, yeah.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #15
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    E4 envy isn't a destructive force like E3 envy. They bask in it and enjoy the despair. E3's rape your family.

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