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  1. #31
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    Dutch? Or one of the Scandinavian languages?
    Scandinavian. Guess the language below. (Actually, it says on my profile but that'd be cheating.)

    It's the same with me. When I was in high school, my brother would say, you have stupid friends. Meaning the people who were in my grade that I was on speaking terms with. When I would say, they're not my friends, he would look at me like I was crazy or heartless or I don't know what. (He's INFP 6w7 btw). And you know, a lot of those people might have seen me as their friend. People take it the wrong way being called "acquaintance". That's a good thing though. I view "Bekannte" or acquaintance as neutral, but leaning more towards a positive connotation. Acquaintances are people that I see and talk to on a daily basis. What people don't get is, if I don't like someone, I'm not going to take the effort to talk to them. If I don't like you, you're not an acquaintance, you're "that asshole". To be considered a "friend", there has to be a deeper connection than "hey we hung out a couple times and got along".

    I tend to divide people in my mind as "family", "(close) friends", "Bekannte/acquaintances" (this could include people from work, people I went to school with, people I know from church, old friends of the family, etc.), "people on Facebook who I would never interact with again if Facebook didn't exist" (includes same people groups from the Bekannte category, but those that I'm either indifferent towards or find a little annoying, but have never had a problem with personally), "people who I refuse to interact with even on something as banal as Facebook" (no thank you Facebook, I don't need to suggest "people you might know"...this category should really be called "people you know that you didn't add on purpose").

    I would be interested in seeing research on how the Facebook phenomenon has redefined how we view the concept of friendship.
    Hah, yeah. I put things in this category: people I don't know about or care about at all, people I know about but don't care about at all; acquaintances somewhat falls into the latter category. Then there's people hate and I care about because I hate them with my guts and I somehow can't seem to stay away to revel in their misery. The word bekant is pretty old-fashioned over here and not really used anymore although there's the word "vän" and then there's "kompis" and "polare" which is a slang, the latter is probably the best translated into polare = buddies, To be a vän is something distant, not quite acquaintance but not really friend either to me, although it is the best translated into friend, but I make the distinction between good and close friends and to me a friend is really only a friend if they are good or close friends.

    Then there's also the distinction family and relatives (in English relatives is more interchangeable with family but in my country family only denotes the closest family members being parents and siblings) but I separate this from friends because as much as I'd like to be friends with my dad the way I view family and relatives is very distant. I think other people would think I'm a cold and heartless bastard for not caring more about them (like I mentioned in the Shit 5s say thread, it sounded like my grandmother would choke because I didn't give two damns about my cousin having twins). So to me, family and relatives are simply people I am related to by blood so they mostly fall into the category of people I know but don't really give a damn about.

    Also, any bets that Mark Zuckerberg is a soc 5? I'm very selective about the people I add on Facebook and I add people I have personal interest in. If you got personal interest in me too bad, if it's not mutual.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  2. #32
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Yeah, I honestly don't think it helps being a 5 because 5s feel naturally disconnected from the world including the social realm. It doesn't really add much social grace and the 4 wing just makes it even worse. Then add that I'm not an Fe type either and it's probably just an recipe for utter social disaster. When I talk about these issues with other people most just raise their eyebrows and tell me, "go talk to more people" and I'm like... that's what I've been doing my entire life and I still feel like an idiot when I realize we don't click which happens 99% of the time.

    The problem for me also when I listen to people whose interest doesn't necessarily overlap with mine is that I feel like I can't contribute or personally share and I grow bored for this reason alone. I'm often more of an observer anyway in most social situations but asking questions about another person's tastes isn't something that comes natural to me. In general it doesn't come very naturally to ask people questions at all about who they are. I'm very self-centered this way and it works with people who can just ramble on and on about their lives without ever considering including me into the conversation but when I'm the one who's stuck asking questions I feel so awkward because it's like I never know what questions to ask or how to make people open up in a way that feels meaningful to me.

    With that said, as a Jungian INFP I'm a very good listener (I was once considering becoming a psychologist for this reason) and some people think that just because I don't interrupt them when they're talking I'm genuinely concerned or care about what they say. This isn't true either though, not in all cases, since I also default to observation mode when I'm bored. It's pretty much what Naranjo said, hit a sweet spot about a subject I'm passionate about and I can ramble on endlessly about that but otherwise I'm just very quiet.

    But yes, it's the bridging element that's difficult as you call it. I just don't get... how you go from light socialization to meaningful interaction with people I don't feel I click with right away. I used to call it the invisible wall when I was younger and I complained about to my parents. I told them there's this invisible wall that keeps me from making friends. Of course no one understood. Not even the therapist I saw later for exactly these issues understood.

    /wrists
    It's strange that people don't understand what you're having trouble with - it's not that difficult to get your head around.

    I think a lot of what you describe is how most INFPs feel too. We have problem with achieving successful and fulfilling interactions. I usually just let people talk and ask questions if I'm not comfortable with the situation or the subject. It takes the burden off me and means they don't ask me questions I don't want to answer. I'm rather ramble-y too when I get on a subject that interests me. Too ramble-y actually - I won't shut up and I bore people silly.

    I'm not sure how you overcome the bridging problem. I don't know how instinctual variants are meant to develop; whether you need to find a way to use your first variant to overcome the deficiencies of the last, or if you simply work on developing your last variant.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  3. #33
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's strange that people don't understand what you're having trouble with - it's not that difficult to get your head around.
    Well, people are not me. I guess that's why? I you've never experienced it before how can you relate? It's weird though, my dad is a 9, I expected him to relate at some level but just being his typical 9 he doesn't say... anything. And my stepmother is a 3 or a 6, I can't say, and she's like, "Just go talk to people." And the therapist told me, "You need to work on your self-esteem." Not because I think what he did was useless but... he didn't understand the problem either.

    I think a lot of what you describe is how most INFPs feel too. We have problem with achieving successful and fulfilling interactions. I usually just let people talk and ask questions if I'm not comfortable with the situation or the subject. It takes the burden off me and means they don't ask me questions I don't want to answer. I'm rather ramble-y too when I get on a subject that interests me. Too ramble-y actually - I won't shut up and I bore people silly.
    Probably. My boss at work has come up with a simple solution to shut me down whenever I ask her for help but I begin to ramble and it starts confusing her: LeaT, what was your question again? I have a smart boss.

    I'm not sure how you overcome the bridging problem. I don't know how instinctual variants are meant to develop; whether you need to find a way to use your first variant to overcome the deficiencies of the last, or if you simply work on developing your last variant.
    I don't know either although it helped gaining some confidence and just ignore. A big problem for the 5 is that you easily get so anxious about dealing with something you've never dealt with before that you get stuck in perpetual preperation mode because the problem is bigger in your head than it is in actuality. So I think for me the best solution would probably just be integration and not worry so much but just practice and keep doing. Easier said than done though... It's stupid how I have no problems running out in the middle of the night armed with a kitchen knife ready to chase away a person I thought was carrying a gun and beating up a woman but when it comes to interpersonal relationships it feels like I'll be forever incompetent.

    Dexter has such a fine quote for it: "I can kill a man, dismember his body and be home in time for Letterman, but knowing what to say when my girlfriend's feeling insecure I'm totally lost."

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  4. #34
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Well, people are not me. I guess that's why? I you've never experienced it before how can you relate? It's weird though, my dad is a 9, I expected him to relate at some level but just being his typical 9 he doesn't say... anything. And my stepmother is a 3 or a 6, I can't say, and she's like, "Just go talk to people." And the therapist told me, "You need to work on your self-esteem." Not because I think what he did was useless but... he didn't understand the problem either.
    Don't you just love people who do that? It's just so much fun being lectured about social skills by people whom it all comes incredibly easily to. Especially when they offer such 'helpful' advice that completely oversimplifies the problem and dismisses your experience.

    I have a relative who's a ESTP 8w7. She's a confident, outgoing people-person, is wonderful on the phone, and is at complete easy talking to strangers and winning people over. She has zero understanding of what it is like to be shy and reserved, but presumes to criticise me for it. She's been trying to help me get a job, and, despite my insistence that I want one that minimises human interaction, she keeps suggesting ones I would be hopeless at. Then when I am reluctant and uneasy about it, she tells me off for being negative and waffles on about how she had to learn to deal with people too, blah, blah, blah. It's such a bunch of bullshit. What the hell does she know about what it feels like?
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #35
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Well, my experience as what I believe is a Sp/So is this: I'm not as attuned to the social realm as an So-dom, but I do try to save face while sort of blending into the background. It can be hard to "do my own thing" when others are watchingaround, and sometimes even when they're not there. (That last part could be just me, though.)

    I agree with, you, SK ^. That kind of attitude can even disencourage people with mental illnesses from seeking help. It's like asking someone "why don't you get over your asthma and become an athlete?"
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  6. #36
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Don't you just love people who do that? It's just so much fun being lectured about social skills by people whom it all comes incredibly easily to. Especially when they offer such 'helpful' advice that completely oversimplifies the problem and dismisses your experience.

    I have a relative who's a ESTP 8w7. She's a confident, outgoing people-person, is wonderful on the phone, and is at complete easy talking to strangers and winning people over. She has zero understanding of what it is like to be shy and reserved, but presumes to criticise me for it. She's been trying to help me get a job, and, despite my insistence that I want one that minimises human interaction, she keeps suggesting ones I would be hopeless at. Then when I am reluctant and uneasy about it, she tells me off for being negative and waffles on about how she had to learn to deal with people too, blah, blah, blah. It's such a bunch of bullshit. What the hell does she know about what it feels like?
    Yeah, I know. My aunt and cousin keep suggesting that I'd get some kind of social service job like personal assistant or work at elderly care center... <.< Perfect job for a 5. Not. And then they keep claiming it's so easy to take care of people. I can barely take care of myself! I mean, perhaps if I was an sp first type maybe I could do it simply for self-sustenance but ultimately I desire a job that's self-fulfilling and these jobs are not. I don't want to take care of living for a living.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  7. #37
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Scandinavian. Guess the language below. (Actually, it says on my profile but that'd be cheating.)
    Finnish is out. Probably Swedish, although most of the Scandinavian languages are mutually intelligible. (I didn't peek, so you'll have to tell me if I'm right or not.)

    Hah, yeah. I put things in this category: people I don't know about or care about at all, people I know about but don't care about at all; acquaintances somewhat falls into the latter category. Then there's people hate and I care about because I hate them with my guts and I somehow can't seem to stay away to revel in their misery. The word bekant is pretty old-fashioned over here and not really used anymore although there's the word "vän" and then there's "kompis" and "polare" which is a slang, the latter is probably the best translated into polare = buddies, To be a vän is something distant, not quite acquaintance but not really friend either to me, although it is the best translated into friend, but I make the distinction between good and close friends and to me a friend is really only a friend if they are good or close friends.

    Then there's also the distinction family and relatives (in English relatives is more interchangeable with family but in my country family only denotes the closest family members being parents and siblings) but I separate this from friends because as much as I'd like to be friends with my dad the way I view family and relatives is very distant. I think other people would think I'm a cold and heartless bastard for not caring more about them (like I mentioned in the Shit 5s say thread, it sounded like my grandmother would choke because I didn't give two damns about my cousin having twins). So to me, family and relatives are simply people I am related to by blood so they mostly fall into the category of people I know but don't really give a damn about.

    Also, any bets that Mark Zuckerberg is a soc 5? I'm very selective about the people I add on Facebook and I add people I have personal interest in. If you got personal interest in me too bad, if it's not mutual.
    While I think I put a little more importance on "blood" than you do, I'm not gung-ho about it like I've seen other people get. Like if "blood" raped someone, I'd happily see "blood" rot in prison for the rest of their life. Being family doesn't give them a free pass to be an asshole with me. I have a very large family. It would be a miracle if I liked them all. There are some who I have completely written off, many that irritate me and who are full of themselves, many that I have no problem seeing only once a year. And I have never been struck with baby craze. With my cousins' kids, when they're first born, I want nothing to do with them, but when they're just learning to crawl and walk, they're fun. They're like little sponges, and so curious about the world around them. But once they start talking, I don't want to deal with them until they're 16.

    I have no idea about Mark Zuckerberg. I actually get very irritated with Facebook, with everyone's soap-boxing. I only use it to play Scrabble and talk shit with some college friends in a private group we made. The only reason I don't deactivate it is it's a universal means of communication. I don't hand out my phone number to just anyone, so if people want to get a hold of me, Facebook is the way to go.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    Finnish is out. Probably Swedish, although most of the Scandinavian languages are mutually intelligible. (I didn't peek, so you'll have to tell me if I'm right or not.)
    Yes, that would be be correct. Swedish that is, not Finnish. Although there's Swedish-Finnish but it's different.

    While I think I put a little more importance on "blood" than you do, I'm not gung-ho about it like I've seen other people get. Like if "blood" raped someone, I'd happily see "blood" rot in prison for the rest of their life. Being family doesn't give them a free pass to be an asshole with me. I have a very large family. It would be a miracle if I liked them all. There are some who I have completely written off, many that irritate me and who are full of themselves, many that I have no problem seeing only once a year. And I have never been struck with baby craze. With my cousins' kids, when they're first born, I want nothing to do with them, but when they're just learning to crawl and walk, they're fun. They're like little sponges, and so curious about the world around them. But once they start talking, I don't want to deal with them until they're 16.
    Honestly, I don't want anything to do with children for most of the part because I feel so incompetent around them. Also, they tend to stare at me for some reason, especially random kids on the street and their parents never notice. This bothers me like hell. Why stare at me out of all the godamn people you could stare at?!

    I have no idea about Mark Zuckerberg. I actually get very irritated with Facebook, with everyone's soap-boxing. I only use it to play Scrabble and talk shit with some college friends in a private group we made. The only reason I don't deactivate it is it's a universal means of communication. I don't hand out my phone number to just anyone, so if people want to get a hold of me, Facebook is the way to go.
    Same. It's simple and easy communication. I don't use it for much either more than mostly being a music exhibitionist actually.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  9. #39
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    Well, I just realized that I'm social-last, so I'm going to try to answer this again

    The social realm provides opportunities to connect with people. Connection is important to me, but my preferred way of relating is intensely idealistic and not shared (or at least openly expressed) by the majority of people I come in contact with. Because social fluidity doesn't come naturally to me, and because many social patterns are in stark contrast to my ideals, my anxiety when dealing with people escalates. It all seems incredibly complex and impossible for me to deal with on a meaningful level.

    So, in answer to the original question, it's important to look at the individual's core interpersonal goals. Is the social instinct more of a means for them, or an end in itself? If they would describe it as a tool they struggle to use, or an obstacle they struggle to overcome, they're most likely not social-first.

  10. #40
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    Everyone pegs me as an so-first, and I had hella social anxiety growing up--with individuals and crowds alike. The 'neurosis' kinda flipped over into 'unadulterated strength,' but not without a lot of effort.

    I've often heard that dominant instinct represents the thing that one pays compulsive attention to, for good or for bad.

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