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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    What the title says. I am for example reading this thread because I am really trying to get a better grasp of the soc instinct:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/fo...6#.UU3HR1eRfXI

    However, I constantly see people mentioning social anxiety and shyness and to a degree introversion in relation to why they are soc last. The only other time seemed to be related to grasping historical connections but I am not sure being able to cognitively grasp the background for WWI is a true indication of the soc instinct or not. I mean, I understand it but I can't say that beyond understanding it that these things are interesting, relevant or something I pay attention to. Not in history or in present day time.

    Also, I'm not suffering from shyness or social anxiety. I do however fail to understand this sense of "belongingness" that was described to be indicative of strong soc, that you're a part of something greater.

    My rationale would thus be this: that a person who still has this sense but is too shy/socially anxious to seek it out would still be a soc first or second, yes? As is usual with our dominant instinct, we feel a certain lack or need if we do not fulfill or satisfy it properly and neuroticism could also appear in relation to our instincts by being afraid of it.

    Thoughts?
    It's interesting, because I have the opposite problem that the person on that EI thread has. I find it impossible to remember historical data like dates and names, but it's easy for me to infer how a variety of factors converged to trigger a historical event. Only reason I passed my AP history tests.

    I've had high social anxiety in the past and it still can resurface depending on my mood. and, yeah, I'd agree that social anxiety is probably most common in social-firsts. On the other hand, in cultures/circumstances where ones' personal security is dependent upon their adherence to social rules, maybe an Sp-first would have serious anxiety then? e.x. if someone was beginning a job as a waiter and was not very socially graceful, but had no other job options to fall back on.

  2. #22
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Title View Post
    I'm pretty sure social anxiety makes more sense for so-first people, because they care enough about it to actually get anxious I agree with your rationale whole-heartedly; as a so-first (maybe second) person, it's something I've been through a lot.
    This.

    I'm a shy So-first. I'm too sensitive to what others think of me (or what I imagine they think of me) and of my social failings.
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  3. #23
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This.

    I'm a shy So-first. I'm too sensitive to what others think of me (or what I imagine they think of me) and of my social failings.
    But would you say this could also apply as soc last but in an opposite sense, kind of? Like you are so aware of your lack of social grace and inability to connect with groups that it creates anxiety for this reason since you realize this is a blind spot and it feels shameful when you try to engage it which has led to a neurotic attitude in a similar manner?

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  4. #24
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    But would you say this could also apply as soc last but in an opposite sense, kind of? Like you are so aware of your lack of social grace and inability to connect with groups that it creates anxiety for this reason since you realize this is a blind spot and it feels shameful when you try to engage it which has led to a neurotic attitude in a similar manner?
    In a way, but I would think your attention isn't going to be drawn to the lacking as much. It's not something playing over and over in your head, unnerving you. For So-lasts it could be more of an insecurity, rather than an anxiety. I mean, isn't anxiety by definition a sort of agitated rumination?

    But who knows? I don't know whether it does feel differently to you. Perhaps it's just like how I feel about connecting with people. I want intimacy with people but feel so awkward and strange about it. This lacking can make me feel uncomfortable and a bit nervous but it's not at all comparable to the social anxieties I feel - the first is related to unfamiliarity and uncertainty, the latter is related to fear.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

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    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #25
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    In a way, but I would think your attention isn't going to be drawn to the lacking as much. It's not something playing over and over in your head, unnerving you. For So-lasts it could be more of an insecurity, rather than an anxiety. I mean, isn't anxiety by definition a sort of agitated rumination?

    But who knows? I don't know whether it does feel differently to you. Perhaps it's just like how I feel about connecting with people. I want intimacy with people but feel so awkward and strange about it. This lacking can make me feel uncomfortable and a bit nervous but it's not at all comparable to the social anxieties I feel - the first is related to unfamiliarity and uncertainty, the latter is related to fear.
    I've never suffered from social anxiety so I can't say where the difference would lie. I was just hypothesizing. Perhaps as you say, it wouldn't be true genuine social anxiety then but rather just a sense of insecurity.

    I did kind of suffer from that especially when I was younger and unhealthy, that I felt making "light" social connections with people just being so difficult (I still do, I fail to see the value in it, my definition of a friend is clearly different to that of other people, I suppose soc types in particular), it ultimately felt meaningless and pointless like I wasn't really... connecting at all, if you get what I mean? I was just here chatting to these people in a room but at the same time I don't feel like I'm making bonds. I'm just talking to them because doing anything else would be awkward but at the same time I feel this awkwardness talking to them and trying to get to know them but I really am not in my mind, I am not connecting, I don't feel this is a person I want to get to know better, have a deep relationship with, we're not clicking.

    And then at some point when I notice that I don't click with anyone in the room, I'm too different, my interests are too counter-culture, too dark, too strange and morbid for them, I just give up and sit in my corner and I rather be asocial than trying to... connect this way. It's like it's this puzzle of human social relations that I never managed to figure out and then there's always a fear that when I'm around strangers and open up too much I'll be rejected exactly because I'm too strange, too different, my interests to dark, morbid and quirky for them, especially the things I'm really passionate about.

    So when I was younger in particular I was like... why even bother with all this. Then I rather go on and lead my hermit life. It seems simpler that way. At least I don't have to fear the feeling of rejection every time when someone tells me that my passion for these metal subgenres I love is too obscure for them, even for other metalheads, or that my love for anything mindfuck is too... complex, complicated, too high-brow to the point it's arrogant.

    /wrists

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  6. #26
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I've never suffered from social anxiety so I can't say where the difference would lie. I was just hypothesizing. Perhaps as you say, it wouldn't be true genuine social anxiety then but rather just a sense of insecurity.

    I did kind of suffer from that especially when I was younger and unhealthy, that I felt making "light" social connections with people just being so difficult (I still do, I fail to see the value in it, my definition of a friend is clearly different to that of other people, I suppose soc types in particular), it ultimately felt meaningless and pointless like I wasn't really... connecting at all, if you get what I mean? I was just here chatting to these people in a room but at the same time I don't feel like I'm making bonds. I'm just talking to them because doing anything else would be awkward but at the same time I feel this awkwardness talking to them and trying to get to know them but I really am not in my mind, I am not connecting, I don't feel this is a person I want to get to know better, have a deep relationship with, we're not clicking.

    And then at some point when I notice that I don't click with anyone in the room, I'm too different, my interests are too counter-culture, too dark, too strange and morbid for them, I just give up and sit in my corner and I rather be asocial than trying to... connect this way. It's like it's this puzzle of human social relations that I never managed to figure out and then there's always a fear that when I'm around strangers and open up too much I'll be rejected exactly because I'm too strange, too different, my interests to dark, morbid and quirky for them, especially the things I'm really passionate about.

    So when I was younger in particular I was like... why even bother with all this. Then I rather go on and lead my hermit life. It seems simpler that way. At least I don't have to fear the feeling of rejection every time when someone tells me that my passion for these metal subgenres I love is too obscure for them, even for other metalheads, or that my love for anything mindfuck is too... complex, complicated, too high-brow to the point it's arrogant.

    /wrists
    This sounds like Sx issues. Being So-last just exacerbates the problem, making it hard to balance that out. Sx/Sp is all or nothing: you want deep and meaningful connections and can't do with anything less than that. I can see how that would be frustrating and disillusioning. You've been knocked back a bit and it puts you off making the effort again.

    I'm not sure if what I have is just shyness or a social anxiety thing but what I feel is usually more overwhelming than what you describe. It's not really the idea of things going wrong in social situations that puts me off going; it's usually more of abstract anxiety. I just don't even want to be there in the first place; it's too scary and stressful. I must say, I can do the light social connections under the right circumstances (a little, or a lot, of alcohol often helps) but I don't often get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I am a INFP and a 4 after all - I want more meaningful interactions too. So I guess I have some ability but still feel incompetent, dissatisfied and uneasy.

    I find when your interests won't really go down well, it's helpful to feed off other people's passions. Ask them questions about things they love and what they like about them. I don't really like Metal at all until I had workmate who could talk for hours about it. He was forgiving of me being ignorant but appreciated my open-mindedness and explained things in universal terms. Now I know about the various Metal genres and subcultures, the history of Metal, as well as a bunch of information about Metallica (and my god, he loves Metallica). I only meant to be polite at first but I actually got a lot out of it. His passion and enthusiasm for the subject certainly was compelling and infectious. I don't ever think I'm going to love Metal, but I appreciate his appreciation - and that in itself can bond people.

    This approach can give you more of the intensity you want. You can create a bond indirectly because people open up more and feel connected to someone that listens empathically to the things they're passionate about. They might even invite you to talk about what you like about the music you like in return. This is where light connections can be a gateway to something more meaningful. If you see this as a bridging element, that lays the foundations, you can then use it to form stronger bonds with like-minded people (rather than simply requiring people to like the same things as you). But then maybe this is the problem - So-last people struggle with the bridging element.

    That said, I wish my friends liked the same music as me. Some of them have appalling taste and mostly think what I listen to is weird or dull.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #27
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    This sounds like Sx issues. Being So-last just exacerbates the problem that it's hard to balance that out. Sx/Sp is all or nothing: you want deep and meaningful connections and can't do with anything less than that. I can see how that would be frustrating and disillusioning. You've been knocked back a bit and it puts you off making the effort again.

    I must say, I can do the light social connections under the right circumstances (a little, or a lot, of alcohol often helps) but I don't often get a great deal of satisfaction out of it. I am a INFP and a 4 after all - I want more meaningful interactions too. It doesn't help that I find interacting with strangers (or outer acquaintances) to be stressful. So I guess I have some ability but still feel incompetent and dissatisfied.

    I find when your interests won't really go down well, it's helpful to feed off other people's passions. Ask them questions about things they love and what they like about them. I don't really like Metal at all until I had workmate who could talk for hours about it. He was forgiving of me being ignorant but appreciated my open-mindedness and explained things in universal terms. Now I know about the various Metal genres and subcultures, the history of Metal, as well as a bunch of information about Metallica (and my god, he loves Metallica). I only meant to be polite at first but I actually got a lot out of it. His passion and enthusiasm for the subject certainly was compelling and infectious. I don't ever think I'm going to love Metal, but I appreciate his appreciation - and that in itself can bond people.

    This approach can give you more of the intensity you want. You can create a bond indirectly because people open up more and feel connected to someone that listens empathically to the things they're passionate about. They might even invite you to talk about what you like about the music you like in return. This is where light connections can be a gateway to something more meaningful. If you see this as a bridging element, that lays the foundations, you can then use it to form stronger bonds with like-minded people (rather than simply requiring people to like the same things as you). But then maybe this is the problem - So-last people struggle with the bridging element.

    That said, I wish my friends liked the same music as me. Some of them have appalling taste and think what I listen to is weird.
    Yeah, I honestly don't think it helps being a 5 because 5s feel naturally disconnected from the world including the social realm. It doesn't really add much social grace and the 4 wing just makes it even worse. Then add that I'm not an Fe type either and it's probably just an recipe for utter social disaster. When I talk about these issues with other people most just raise their eyebrows and tell me, "go talk to more people" and I'm like... that's what I've been doing my entire life and I still feel like an idiot when I realize we don't click which happens 99% of the time.

    The problem for me also when I listen to people whose interest doesn't necessarily overlap with mine is that I feel like I can't contribute or personally share and I grow bored for this reason alone. I'm often more of an observer anyway in most social situations but asking questions about another person's tastes isn't something that comes natural to me. In general it doesn't come very naturally to ask people questions at all about who they are. I'm very self-centered this way and it works with people who can just ramble on and on about their lives without ever considering including me into the conversation but when I'm the one who's stuck asking questions I feel so awkward because it's like I never know what questions to ask or how to make people open up in a way that feels meaningful to me.

    With that said, as a Jungian INFP I'm a very good listener (I was once considering becoming a psychologist for this reason) and some people think that just because I don't interrupt them when they're talking I'm genuinely concerned or care about what they say. This isn't true either though, not in all cases, since I also default to observation mode when I'm bored. It's pretty much what Naranjo said, hit a sweet spot about a subject I'm passionate about and I can ramble on endlessly about that but otherwise I'm just very quiet.

    But yes, it's the bridging element that's difficult as you call it. I just don't get... how you go from light socialization to meaningful interaction with people I don't feel I click with right away. I used to call it the invisible wall when I was younger and I complained about to my parents. I told them there's this invisible wall that keeps me from making friends. Of course no one understood. Not even the therapist I saw later for exactly these issues understood.

    /wrists

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  8. #28
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I did kind of suffer from that especially when I was younger and unhealthy, that I felt making "light" social connections with people just being so difficult (I still do, I fail to see the value in it, my definition of a friend is clearly different to that of other people, I suppose soc types in particular), it ultimately felt meaningless and pointless like I wasn't really... connecting at all, if you get what I mean?
    What is your definition of a friend? It might be a 5 thing you're speaking of here, rather than SX vs SO, because I know exactly what you mean: I've felt that same way my whole life. I am extremely selective of who I call a "friend". People who are my acquaintances don't register as "friend" in my mind until we've passed a certain threshold in our relationship. For me, the problem is that the English language is limiting when it comes to expressing degrees of friendship. There's not really an appropriate word to describe people that I know, whom I am friendly with, but don't consider them close enough to be called "friend". The Ti in me is annoyed at this lacking. German is a better language for drawing these distinctions, but they still have the overt concept of formality vs. informality in their language and society. But unfortunately, it's not like I can go around and call people "Bekannte". No one would know what I'm saying.

  9. #29
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    What is your definition of a friend? It might be a 5 thing you're speaking of here, rather than SX vs SO, because I know exactly what you mean: I've felt that same way my whole life. I am extremely selective of who I call a "friend". People who are my acquaintances don't register as "friend" in my mind until we've passed a certain threshold in our relationship. For me, the problem is that the English language is limiting when it comes to expressing degrees of friendship. There's not really an appropriate word to describe people that I know, whom I am friendly with, but don't consider them close enough to be called "friend". The Ti in me is annoyed at this lacking. German is a better language for drawing these distinctions, but they still have the overt concept of formality vs. informality in their language and society. But unfortunately, it's not like I can go around and call people "Bekannte". No one would know what I'm saying.
    Ah, well, bekannte or in my language, bekant, is what I'd translate into acquaintance. Most of the people I speak to on a day to day basis fall in this category to me even though some of them most likely see me as a friend. I am not even sure where the threshold is drawn to me, but it should be a mutual desire to see each other on a regular basis I guess, and you get something out of that.

    I agree though, I'm equally annoyed over the lack of nuance when it comes to describing social relations to people.

    Should be clarified that when I mentioned soc, I meant pretty much every other type than 5. I know 5s naturally have issues with bonding, although perhaps the intensity I experience is sx.

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  10. #30
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Ah, well, bekannte or in my language, bekant, is what I'd translate into acquaintance.
    Dutch? Or one of the Scandinavian languages?

    Most of the people I speak to on a day to day basis fall in this category to me even though some of them most likely see me as a friend. I am not even sure where the threshold is drawn to me, but it should be a mutual desire to see each other on a regular basis I guess, and you get something out of that.

    I agree though, I'm equally annoyed over the lack of nuance when it comes to describing social relations to people.
    It's the same with me. When I was in high school, my brother would say, you have stupid friends. Meaning the people who were in my grade that I was on speaking terms with. When I would say, they're not my friends, he would look at me like I was crazy or heartless or I don't know what. (He's INFP 6w7 btw). And you know, a lot of those people might have seen me as their friend. People take it the wrong way being called "acquaintance". That's a good thing though. I view "Bekannte" or acquaintance as neutral, but leaning more towards a positive connotation. Acquaintances are people that I see and talk to on a daily basis. What people don't get is, if I don't like someone, I'm not going to take the effort to talk to them. If I don't like you, you're not an acquaintance, you're "that asshole". To be considered a "friend", there has to be a deeper connection than "hey we hung out a couple times and got along".

    I tend to divide people in my mind as "family", "(close) friends", "Bekannte/acquaintances" (this could include people from work, people I went to school with, people I know from church, old friends of the family, etc.), "people on Facebook who I would never interact with again if Facebook didn't exist" (includes same people groups from the Bekannte category, but those that I'm either indifferent towards or find a little annoying, but have never had a problem with personally), "people who I refuse to interact with even on something as banal as Facebook" (no thank you Facebook, I don't need to suggest "people you might know"...this category should really be called "people you know that you didn't add on purpose").

    I would be interested in seeing research on how the Facebook phenomenon has redefined how we view the concept of friendship.

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