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Relation of wings to core

Flatlander

Fair and Square
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
124
MBTI Type
iNtj
Enneagram
582
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
How do you relate to your wings?

I was thinking the other day along these lines, and found that I was curiously repelled by the psychology, just the idea, of both of my wings (I'm a core 5), even more so for the 4 than the 6, though I have enjoyed acquaintence with individuals of both cores. I scorn the 4 idea of attaching oneself to one's emotions and having a psychology based in envy, and I ward strongly against the kind of existential doubt that informs the 6, instead confident in the understanding I have gathered and holding it to a logical scale of probability when necessary. On the other hand, I can see intellectually/logically where each of these forces goes toward creating the core: when you combine envy and doubt, you get, quite naturally, avarice. And I can see both wings in my behavior.

Do you share this kind of relation to the wings around you? If not, how do they act within your psychology?
 

Amargith

Hotel California
Joined
Nov 5, 2008
Messages
14,717
MBTI Type
ENFP
Enneagram
4dw
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Despite loving a 3 very very much and admiring their strength and tenacity, I cannot stand the idea of being a 3 myself. I refuse to care about the rat race that the world forces on us..or so I tell myself :)

I admire 5s greatly,and am more open to their influence as I enjoy gathering knowledge and educating myself in various fields, but the idea of being *that* emotionally cut off and aloof scares the living day lights out of me. I also..find it amusing when 5s rationalise everything and cannot identify their own emotional undercurrents which are clearly influencing them :)

So yes..I relate to what you are saying. And yes, I very much do not relate to my wings in a way.

But Ive realised over the years that I am influenced by them, very much so. I do have some need to compete and to put myself out there. And i have a very big need to understand the world and research the heck out of it. And yes, I identify with the need to impress others the way 3s do and the fear of facing the world unprepared that 5s experience.


- With love, from your 4 neighbour :smooch:
 

Animal

So carnal it's spiritual
Joined
Mar 9, 2013
Messages
650
MBTI Type
SeFi
Enneagram
4
8s are known to feel like the world is not going to save them and everyone is out for themselves, so they have to take care of themselves and protect the innocent, and take matters into their own hands, realistically, to avoid being overpowered by cruel outside forces who don't care. This leads to a lot of emphasis on pragmatism.

9s get rid of unpleasantry by disassociating (psycho-spiritual laziness); 7s do it by avoiding being critical towards themselves (narcissism). I explicitly find both lines of thinking to be anti-pragmatic. When I have a problem I face it head-on, and one of the things I do automatically is to fish out my own weaknesses, to figure out where I went wrong and how to fix it.

While I get along well with some 9s and 7s, 9-like or 7-like thinking within myself is anathema to me: anti-pragmatic, working against my goal-focus. I don't find most of the enneatypes to be directly 'against' the way I think as with those two, even though if I'm honest, I can see shades of both in myself.

I can be psycho-spiritually lazy in the sense of doing, or reacting, without thinking. Doing without thinking is a defense against sloth, but ironically, also lazy in its own rite. Also, sadism is rooted in denial of shame through shaming the other. I've never had any conscious awareness of shame. If shame is part of human nature then certainly, I've lived with a great deal of denial (a problem for type 8), and this is also psycho-spiritually lazy - because I have not felt driven to have shame or to find it within myself. I experience shame in the carnal sense: when I'm emotionally hurt or physically sick, I'm driven to hide in my room by myself, like a cat. I don't want to be seen (or overpowered) when I'm weak. Other than that, I feel shameless, like I have nothing to hide. When other people tell me of their shame, I don't relate, but I try to hear them out and help them move past it. If someone tries to shame me, it's an utter failure and gets turned around on them instantly - it's their problem. (There's my sadism.) This must be some combination of spiritual laziness and narcissism?

I'll gladly brag about the things I consider assets or accomplishments, but I'm equally open about the sides of me that I consider faults or failures. It's important to me to be aware of my assets and faults so that I can approach my goals realistically. Awareness of my assets gives me confidence and makes me feel I have the stuff to achieve what I want (therefore, contributes to my drive), and awareness of my faults helps me to avoid being vulnerable or putting myself in a bad position.

I'm naturally VERY aware of my flaws as well as my assets, (unlike 7 who would rather not see their flaws), and I don't tend to think I'm inherently better than anyone; it is neither my inclination, nor is it realistic. But I'd say that pragmatism and 'realism' or , the type of awareness: "I'm good at this, but terrible at that" is a defense against narcissism, too. At the same time, I am apt to overestimate myself from time to time, so that narcissistic bent is definitely there.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
How do you relate to your wings?

I was thinking the other day along these lines, and found that I was curiously repelled by the psychology, just the idea, of both of my wings (I'm a core 5), even more so for the 4 than the 6, though I have enjoyed acquaintence with individuals of both cores. I scorn the 4 idea of attaching oneself to one's emotions and having a psychology based in envy, and I ward strongly against the kind of existential doubt that informs the 6, instead confident in the understanding I have gathered and holding it to a logical scale of probability when necessary. On the other hand, I can see intellectually/logically where each of these forces goes toward creating the core: when you combine envy and doubt, you get, quite naturally, avarice. And I can see both wings in my behavior.

Do you share this kind of relation to the wings around you? If not, how do they act within your psychology?

Phenomenal prompt.

I have to say, I'm actually pretty impressed with some of the enneagram discussion that's been taking place recently.

For a while now the board has seemed to be moving more towards enneagram than MBTI.

And some of these newer members are creating some really good threads.

Anyway, enough metaing.

***

I do actually get pretty sickened by my wings (but, frankly, I can feel that way about all the enneatypes, when unhealthy [which is how they tend to be described most often, due to the oft-pathological roots of much enneagram thinking]).

But, that being said, I probably sympathize more with 6s, as that is my type, than with 5s and 7s.

The certainty you describe to me just seems full of shit. You don't seem objective. Frankly, I think 6s are the most objective of all types (in terms of what they aim for -- when they start getting spun up, well, that can certainly be a different story). In Molina's system, the head center is the "Systemic" center (the heart/image center is the "Extrinsic" center, and the gut/instinctual center is the "Intrinsic" center), and, within each center, one type manifests the Intrinsic, one type the Systemic, and one type the Extrinsic. In the Systemic center, 5s manifest the intrinsic, 6s the systemic, and 7s the extrinsic.

As such, 5s are 5SI, 6s are 6SS, and 7s are 7SE. Basically, 5s are in the Systemic center, but they kinda go inwards, and put importance on their own intrinsic valuations of things. To me, as a 6SS (a purely systemic thinker), their convictions just seem like bullshit, much like the 1IS. Why the fuck should I care what it is that your gut tells you? Is your gut completely infallible? Does your gut know all? No. And, as such, I think 5s often display a false confidence. They might feel confident, but, imo, they don't actually deserve to be (which is not to say that no 5 deserves to be confident in their convictions, because, well, I think some are actually rightly confident [though they are greatly outweighed by those who are wrongly confident]). Essentially, my conflict with them is that they are not Systemic enough. They trust their own intrinsic (i.e., gut) valuation of things too much.

7SEs, on the other hand, are just too extroverted. I can find them very enjoyable for a while, or just on a temporary/shallow basis, but the whole running from their internal selves (i.e., lack of intrinsic capacity [hence, they need to integrate to 5SI]) is so obvious and pathetic. I really can't stand people so lacking in self-awareness and/or who won't/don't deal with their problems.

6SSs, I mean, they can be annoying as shit, but I guess I feel more for them, cuz I am one, and I empathize, and I'm just like, "Man, this person's just nervous/anxious about shit."
 

rav3n

.
Joined
Aug 6, 2010
Messages
11,655
8w7. I relate my 7 wing to tertiary Se. It's an alternate coping strategy of break out, impulsivity and extroversion. Relax and have some fun without judgment.
 
G

Ginkgo

Guest
3s come off as mindless preps and 5s impact the world about as much as a floating spec would damage a heavily fortified bunker. From a detached perspective, 4s are basically just the original hipsters, and as such sometimes don't have that much to actually say about their subjects of interests, besides "I was more innovative than you pshah".

I find it hard to be as conservative (as far as resources, time, etc is concerned) as a 5; they tend to be fairly steady and choosy about how they want to present themselves. However, there remains that hipster attitude, which, arguably, may be the true testament to that particular subculture. 5s are more elusive in certain ways, like I am.

I find it even harder to be as transparent as a 3. Sure, I use an "image oriented" approach, but the very things I see as my misgivings are what allow me to ignore what others may think of me in a situation where I might interact with a foreign group of people. My idealized "self" seems to be more relevant to who I am than a 3, which permits a sort of universal, egalitarian procedure, as if I'd rather the entire world hate me than just a local group.
 

Entropic

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Messages
1,200
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8w9
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sx/so
I wanted to respond to this since I know the source of this thread, haha. But I'm different to Flatlander because I have a very strong attraction to 4 cores, especially sp first types. I don't tend to jive so well with 6s in contrast though, although phobic types are better than counterphobic. I do see both wing influence in me but it is clear that 4 is superior or I wouldn't type it as my wing.

But yes, I like 4s very much on average and I tend to find their overall way of being strangely mysterious and attractive. Their emotional volatile vulnerability creates a strong sense of something that I need to protect for some reason. Of course, this doesn't apply to all 4s but I do not feel as strongly naturally aversed towards 4s as I do 6s. It's also interesting to note here that Flatlander types without any wing, I type with wing 4. I tend to thus also strongly identify with 4s as I see my suffering in them. I guess parhaps part why I feel the need to protect 4s because by doing so I also protect myself. How 8-like?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I wanted to respond to this since I know the source of this thread, haha. But I'm different to Flatlander because I have a very strong attraction to 4 cores, especially sp first types. I don't tend to jive so well with 6s in contrast though, although phobic types are better than counterphobic. I do see both wing influence in me but it is clear that 4 is superior or I wouldn't type it as my wing.

But yes, I like 4s very much on average and I tend to find their overall way of being strangely mysterious and attractive. Their emotional volatile vulnerability creates a strong sense of something that I need to protect for some reason. Of course, this doesn't apply to all 4s but I do not feel as strongly naturally aversed towards 4s as I do 6s. It's also interesting to note here that Flatlander types without any wing, I type with wing 4. I tend to thus also strongly identify with 4s as I see my suffering in them. I guess parhaps part why I feel the need to protect 4s because by doing so I also protect myself. How 8-like?

Are you people PersonalityCafe refugees or something?

Also: could you expand on what you don't like about counterphobic 6s, and why you feel an aversion towards 6s in general?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
Joined
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Messages
8,110
A few of us are. PerC is too full of drama.

Got it.

It always just surprises me when someone comes in with very few posts but clearly has a strong understanding of typology.

I'm never quite sure, but my primary reaction is just to figure they're a PerC refugee.
 
0

011235813

Guest
I'm a 9. Can't say I feel any aversion to the inner motivations and neuroses of either of my enneagram neighbours. If anything, I'd say that knowing that their particular frailties exist helps me see them as more human, partially because it's easier to identify with people I feel genuinely sorry for. While individuals and individual behaviours can rub me the wrong way, I admire the 8's assertiveness and drive and the 1's competence and clarity.

I identify more with 1's motivations, which is why I picked 9w1 for myself.

The motivations and shortcomings I have the most strained relationship with belong to my core type 9 itself because I'm uncomfortably aware of how true they are for me, and I really don't like what they say about me as a person. On the other hand, I'm not so wretchedly slothful and lost to myself that I don't try to rise above them every now and then. So that's something.
 

Entropic

New member
Joined
Aug 20, 2012
Messages
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INTJ
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8w9
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sx/so
Are you people PersonalityCafe refugees or something?

I've been lurking here for a long time. I've become more active because Maybe and Flatlander whom I consider to be two good friends are probably more aptly called refugees than I am. I still post on PersC.
Also: could you expand on what you don't like about counterphobic 6s, and why you feel an aversion towards 6s in general?

I don't like how CP6s in particular tend to project their anxiety onto their surroundings. It kind of triggers my own neurosis as a result so I seek this one answer and I think I have it but a CP6 will go, "but what if it's not the actual answer?!" and I start self-doubting myself and my knowledge to an unhealthy point where I can potentially disintegrate which has actually happened. I was for example looking into tritype theory and trying to figure out my gut fixation and a CP6 tells me over and over, how do you know it's not 1 over 8? Look at all these behaviors, it must be proof of 1! I know that he was just trying to help but it didn't help me because it questioned my entire body of knowledge that I had of myself and I fell into an unhealthy spiral of questioning who I am, what I know and kind of like why I am here. A lot of exisential anxiety.

Also, a lot of the people on PersC who bitch at me are CP6s, either core types or fixed. So just bad experiences. A phobic 6 tends to more often hold their doubting to themselves and avoid whatever triggers their anxiety instead of having this need to always "call things out". Health levels obviously also play a large role here.

It gets tiring to have what I know constantly questioned. I do wish to point out that I'm good friends with a person who types as 6w5 INTJ though, but she's phobic. There is also an ISFP CP6 on PersC I respect a lot even though I don't always agree with her but we have a mutual understanding of each other's POVs. I don't hate or dislike all 6s but a lot of 6s, at least on the internet, really tend to rub me the wrong way even when I know they don't try to. I just think that they have a natural ability to often trigger my own 5 neurosis and I inherently know this so I avoid them. I hate feeling anxious and disintegration towards 7 is so incredibly unpleasant it feels like I'll go insane every time so I just rather avoid it meaning I also rather avoid being around people who trigger this in me.
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Messages
8,110
I've been lurking here for a long time. I've become more active because Maybe and Flatlander whom I consider to be two good friends are probably more aptly called refugees than I am. I still post on PersC.

Got it.

Those are the two who I've noticed making good threads.

I don't like how CP6s in particular tend to project their anxiety onto their surroundings. It kind of triggers my own neurosis as a result so I seek this one answer and I think I have it but a CP6 will go, "but what if it's not the actual answer?!" and I start self-doubting myself and my knowledge to an unhealthy point where I can potentially disintegrate which has actually happened. I was for example looking into tritype theory and trying to figure out my gut fixation and a CP6 tells me over and over, how do you know it's not 1 over 8? Look at all these behaviors, it must be proof of 1! I know that he was just trying to help but it didn't help me because it questioned my entire body of knowledge that I had of myself and I fell into an unhealthy spiral of questioning who I am, what I know and kind of like why I am here. A lot of exisential anxiety.

Excuse me, here, cuz, obviously, I am a 6, but...

Isn't the 6 basically just more committed to discovering the truth than you are?

I'm not saying the stuff you describe doesn't come with it, but isn't that, in essence, what you are pointing to?

It's just that the uncertainty that comes with questioning how much you really know bothers you.


Also, a lot of the people on PersC who bitch at me are CP6s, either core types or fixed. So just bad experiences. A phobic 6 tends to more often hold their doubting to themselves and avoid whatever triggers their anxiety instead of having this need to always "call things out". Health levels obviously also play a large role here.

Yeah.

I've been that way a lot on here, and irl.

I'm trying to change it.

The thing is, I do respect what brings it about. And I know why I have acted that way, and I respect why it is I previously did not want to give up that behavior. I wouldn't just bitch about anything. I'd bitch because what I was bitching about was genuinely stupid (and thus, often, imo, harmful to the general thinking population). But it seems to have run a course to the point that, although I respect why I was like that previously, it just seems time to move to something else. To go beyond it. Like that was something for my younger self. And it's time to move on to something more mature. Which, coincidentally, would seem to do much more with an integration path towards enneagram 9. I'll leave the non-truth witch hunt to some younger 20-something INTJ 6w5 sx/so.

It gets tiring to have what I know constantly questioned. I do wish to point out that I'm good friends with a person who types as 6w5 INTJ though, but she's phobic. There is also an ISFP CP6 on PersC I respect a lot even though I don't always agree with her but we have a mutual understanding of each other's POVs. I don't hate or dislike all 6s but a lot of 6s, at least on the internet, really tend to rub me the wrong way even when I know they don't try to. I just think that they have a natural ability to often trigger my own 5 neurosis and I inherently know this so I avoid them. I hate feeling anxious and disintegration towards 7 is so incredibly unpleasant it feels like I'll go insane every time so I just rather avoid it meaning I also rather avoid being around people who trigger this in me.

So it is because we trigger other peoples' insecurities?

Funnily enough, that's what my mom always said.

:laugh:
 

Entropic

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sx/so
Excuse me, here, cuz, obviously, I am a 6, but...

Isn't the 6 basically just more committed to discovering the truth than you are?

I'm not saying the stuff you describe doesn't come with it, but isn't that, in essence, what you are pointing to?

I'll answer these two things first and I understand why you question since I question your type in a way. Anyway, I think it's wrong saying that a 5 or a 6 are more dedicated to truth than others. Rather, we are dedicated to finding different kinds of truths. A 6 has a more pragmatic approach to truth telling than a 5. The answers the 5 seeks are more metaphysical/spiritual and related to their existence. The truth seeking of a 5 is just as important as that of a 6. Just that a 5 truth is not really useful in the here and now in a pragmatic manner. It seeks to explain and understand rather than telling people the state of the world. Not always the same things. Also, sometimes especially unhealthy CP6s really push the whole truth-seeking too far and as a result become really off base because their unhealthy superego influence makes them feel like they must call things out in order to relive themselves of the anxiety regardless of whether it is actually true or not. Just like for a 5, not everything we say is actually logical even though we think it is. What matters is that it makes sense to us, not necessarily to others.
It's just that the uncertainty that comes with questioning how much you really know bothers you.


Hm, I can't comment on this as I haven't tried to type any of the great philosophers personally.
Yeah.

I've been that way a lot on here, and irl.

I'm trying to change it.

The thing is, I do respect what brings it about. And I know why I have acted that way, and I respect why it is I previously did not want to give up that behavior. I wouldn't just bitch about anything. I'd bitch because what I was bitching about was genuinely stupid (and thus, often, imo, harmful to the general thinking population). But it seems to have run a course to the point that, although I respect why I was like that previously, it just seems time to move to something else. To go beyond it. Like that was something for my younger self. And it's time to move on to something more mature. Which, coincidentally, would seem to do much more with an integration path towards enneagram 9. I'll leave the non-truth witch hunt to some younger 20-something INTJ 6w5 sx/so.

Heh, you're such a clearly valuing Se type in ego position in socionics. I'd guess beta quadra for you. It's logic exactly like this when it comes from 6s that really for some really rub me the wrong way. The superego kind of self-righteous drive. I got a similar issue with 1s. I'm largely unconcerned. I'll factually lay out if I think I got sufficient evidence to prove my point. Most importantly though, if they are not theoretically correct I'll nitpick on that in relation to their type if I must but otherwise it really doesn't bother me.
So it is because we trigger other peoples' insecurities?

Funnily enough, that's what my mom always said.

:laugh:

Perhaps? Do you feel that 5s trigger your insecurities and how would we go on about doing this exactly? By stating how we see the world with such certainty which makes you feel insecure since according to the logic of the 6, nothing is truly certain?
 

Zarathustra

Let Go Of Your Team
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Oct 31, 2009
Messages
8,110
I'll answer these two things first and I understand why you question since I question your type in a way. Anyway, I think it's wrong saying that a 5 or a 6 are more dedicated to truth than others. Rather, we are dedicated to finding different kinds of truths. A 6 has a more pragmatic approach to truth telling than a 5. The answers the 5 seeks are more metaphysical/spiritual and related to their existence. The truth seeking of a 5 is just as important as that of a 6. Just that a 5 truth is not really useful in the here and now in a pragmatic manner. It seeks to explain and understand rather than telling people the state of the world. Not always the same things.

This seems a little straight-from-the-descriptionish, but perhaps there's some truth to it.

A lot of it seems to be almost Pish vs Jish, tho.

And to say that I'm not into metaphysical/spiritual truth would be retarded.

Also, sometimes especially unhealthy CP6s really push the whole truth-seeking too far and as a result become really off base because their unhealthy superego influence makes them feel like they must call things out in order to relive themselves of the anxiety regardless of whether it is actually true or not. Just like for a 5, not everything we say is actually logical even though we think it is. What matters is that it makes sense to us, not necessarily to others.

True.

But some are better than others.

The best kind of 6 will use doubt enough to eradicate anything dubitable from his position.

Heh, you're such a clearly valuing Se type in ego position in socionics. I'd guess beta quadra for you.

I don't fuck with socionics much, but I'm an INTp/ILI.

Blame lots of Se, or something, on aspirational Se + strong connection with e3 + athlete + high actualization

It's logic exactly like this when it comes from 6s that really for some really rub me the wrong way. The superego kind of self-righteous drive. I got a similar issue with 1s.

1s annoy the shit out of me a lot of the time for the same reason.

6s don't, really, because it's way lesser than for 1s, but, I dunno, to each his own.

6SSs, as pure systemic thinkers, are also more objective than gut-trusting 1ISs.

If you could expound with any more clarity on this it would be appreciated.

As it stands, it seems like you're kvetching about perfectibility.

I'm largely unconcerned.

Largely unconcerned with what?

I'll factually lay out if I think I got sufficient evidence to prove my point. Most importantly though, if they are not theoretically correct I'll nitpick on that in relation to their type if I must but otherwise it really doesn't bother me.

Oh, god, we don't have a type-nitpicker, do we?

Perhaps? Do you feel that 5s trigger your insecurities and how would we go on about doing this exactly? By stating how we see the world with such certainty which makes you feel insecure since according to the logic of the 6, nothing is truly certain?

No, I wouldn't say they trigger insecurities.

They trigger my anger that someone could be so stupid.

Firmly believing in something that clearly has holes in it is... well... not sexy.
 

RaptorWizard

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By finding the light within our own true selves we spread our wings from the core of our own minds and fly away to great heights.
 

madhatter

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so/sp
I find that I relate pretty heavily on the 6-wing, and almost not at all to the 4-wing, to the point where I have an aversion to core-4 motivations. No doubt I have some influence from my neighbor 4, but I have a hard time seeing it. 4 is the one type in the Enneagram that I understand the least, to the point when I'm talking about tritypes and people want to know more about 4-fix, I just have to say, I do not understand 4, I can't help you here.

As for the 6-wing, I take on more of the doubting nature than a 4-ish envious nature, but I would say it actually manifests more as a questioning nature. I can question something what I believe (or what I don't believe) impartially, without doubting myself. I'm very sure of my own mind and what I believe. I am more of a Devil's Advocate than a Doubting Thomas.
 

Azure Flame

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9's annoy me. They're like syrup. The just kinda stick to you and don't go away but don't really do anything bad either.

However I find my ability to mind merge with other personalities to understand who they really are, to be incredibly useful in the dating scene. I ask them a million questions, I suddenly begin feeling what they feel for a few days, I decide if I like it. If I don't, I stop talking to them. If I do, I keep talking to them.

Past that its a huge pain in the butt to forget shit I wanted to do earlier, falling asleep when bored, and getting absorbed in other's plans and forgetting my own original inspirations. Its also nice to be able to soothe any person I want by simply flipping the "tranquility" switch and manipulating their energy level to a zero.
 

Such Irony

Honor Thy Inferior
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sp/so
I'm probably a 5w6 but I relate alot to the 4 wing too. I've also considered the possibility of 6w5 or 9w1. 5w6 is probably right though.

How I relate to 6 wing:
Question and doubt many things
Indecisive much of the time- prone to analysis paralysis
Worry alot- imagine dire situations and how I'll cope if it ever happens
Highly safety and security conscious
Want to fit in to a group- not just any group though. One that actually shares my interests and values.

How I relate to 4 wing:
High value on originality and uniqueness
Have trouble totally getting over past hurts and disappointments
Often envious of people who seem better off or have qualities I greatly admire but don't think I possess much of
 
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