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  1. #21
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    My relationship with five is neither purely averse nor attracted. We share interests, but we pursue them differently. It's like this: the five (with four wing in particular) and I both live next door to a vast and dark cave. Neither of us knows where it leads or what lurks inside, and both of us want to explore it. I simply walk in, caring for the direct feeling of an expedition over the risk of getting lost or eaten by slimy cave beasts. He heeds the risk more than he wants the feel, staying outside the cave while probing it through research and sending in various robotic and remote sensing devices.

    When I meet a five, it is as he pages me from the outside of the cave via walkie-talkie and we exchange findings. Our findings are equally fruitful and, furthermore, complement each other. However, if you are the one sitting in the sun listening to me describe the darkness, the mud I am standing in up to my waist and the eyeless cave serpent trying to choke my arm, you will wonder in frustration why the hell I walked into such. In the same way, as you describe your wealth of sonar data and photographs and articles to me, I will wonder in equal frustration why you won't touch this environment if it fascinates you so much.

    And deep down, we both know that it would help each of us to take a hint from the other's approach and be more moderate. But will we?

    I mean to depict the types as equals, but withdrawing from different things. One explorer shouldn't look any more flattering than the other.

  2. #22
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    This seems a little straight-from-the-descriptionish, but perhaps there's some truth to it.

    A lot of it seems to be almost Pish vs Jish, tho.

    And to say that I'm not into metaphysical/spiritual truth would be retarded.
    Did you interpret what I meant a little too literary lol? Of course I am not saying 6s cannot be into spiritual/metaphysical stuff. I was relating back to the holy idea of the truth that we seek. Maybe it is Ji vs Pi. I haven't spoken to many Ji 6s.


    I don't fuck with socionics much, but I'm an INTp/ILI.
    I'd wager LIE then, if gamma
    Blame lots of Se, or something, on aspirational Se + strong connection with e3 + athlete + high actualization
    Perhaps? I'm just gotten good at vibe typing Se types out. Those with inferior Se don't tend to project this kind of vibe as strongly as you did here. But if you haven't looked much into it, there's not much to discuss really.

    1s annoy the shit out of me a lot of the time for the same reason.

    6s don't, really, because it's way lesser than for 1s, but, I dunno, to each his own.

    6SSs, as pure systemic thinkers, are also more objective than gut-trusting 1ISs.

    If you could expound with any more clarity on this it would be appreciated.
    Well, to me, I often find that the criticism is simply unfounded and they are reacting out of superego frustration rather than whether it is actually constructive to do so. What I mean is that as an ego type, the things that tend to rub average to unhealthy 1s and 6s the wrong way and they need to call things out don't concern me. I'll prove it wrong when/if there are logical loopholes to nitpick on. And you don't like nitpickers? I think logically nitpicking on someone who is seen as being inaccurate is quite common for a 5 since it's a way for us to relieve of anxiety in a similar manner like how 6s start questioning everything.

    As it stands, it seems like you're kvetching about perfectibility.
    No idea. Yet to figure it out, honestly.

    No, I wouldn't say they trigger insecurities.

    They trigger my anger that someone could be so stupid.

    Firmly believing in something that clearly has holes in it is... well... not sexy.
    Fine, I doubt many 5s would openly admit such a thing. That's kind of like 6s rub me the wrong way though because sometimes I'm just rather left believing y'know, since I came up with that in order to relieve myself of anxiety.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    I don't fuck with socionics much, but I'm an INTp/ILI.

    Blame lots of Se, or something, on aspirational Se + strong connection with e3 + athlete + high actualization.
    Off topic, but for the record, @BlackCat thinks you're an oddly beta-ish LIE too, just like LeaT. I have to say I concur.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Did you interpret what I meant a little too literary lol?
    Do you happen to run North Korea?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Of course I am not saying 6s cannot be into spiritual/metaphysical stuff. I was relating back to the holy idea of the truth that we seek.
    Yeah, well, I think you used a lot of the rote 6 description from some of the more popular, but not all that great, enneagram theorists. 6s, frankly, are just as, if not more, philosophical, than 5s. We just don't trust our gut like 5s do. And, as such, as I said, we have a certain greater objectivity. 5s believe their own bullshit. 6s don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Maybe it is Ji vs Pi. I haven't spoken to many Ji 6s.
    I was referring to the "pragmatic" side of 6s vs 5s, and the more "solely for truth's sake" side of 5s vs 6s, that you were pointing to.

    It's more of a Ji vs Je thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I'd wager LIE then, if gamma
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rathustra.html

    There's a whole thread in which this was pretty thoroughly hashed out a long time ago.

    In fact, I addressed the topic in my very first post on the forum (which is quoted there).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Perhaps? I'm just gotten good at vibe typing Se types out.
    I wouldn't give yourself that much credit.

    As I said, I am high in Se.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Those with inferior Se don't tend to project this kind of vibe as strongly as you did here.
    [/quote]

    And compared to most INTJs, I am highly extroverted.

    As I say in that thread, I am right on the boundary of introvert and extrovert.

    But I fall just on the introverted side of the introvert/extrovert divide.

    There are a number of reasons why this is the case.

    But I understand why people think me an extrovert.

    I am an introvert who forced himself to extrovert.

    Also, 6s are the most ambiverted enneagram type.

    As such, INTJ 6s are more extroverted than the more common INTJ 5s.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    But if you haven't looked much into it, there's not much to discuss really.
    Oh, I've looked into it plenty.

    I just talk in terms of MBTI, not Socionics.

    I think the supposed conceptual divide between Socionics and MBTI/Beebe/others is false.

    I think they're all based off the same source material (Jung), and the INTJs are INTps, ENTJs are LIEs, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Well, to me, I often find that the criticism is simply unfounded and they are reacting out of superego frustration rather than whether it is actually constructive to do so.
    Well, there's a complete difference between whether criticism is founded/unfounded and whether it is constructive to point out such criticisms (as I pointed to in my earlier post). Whether or not the ratio of criticism being founded to unfounded is inordinately skewed to the latter is going to come down to the individual involved. And, lastly, superego frustration can exist for perfectly sound reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    What I mean is that as an ego type, the things that tend to rub average to unhealthy 1s and 6s the wrong way and they need to call things out don't concern me.
    Why is this?

    What types of things do these tend to be?

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I'll prove it wrong when/if there are logical loopholes to nitpick on.
    No offense, but your repeated use of the term logical here seems retarded to me.

    In practice, this terms tends to mean little more than "this thing I'm complaining about doesn't make sense to me/fit into my subjective logical schema (i.e., Pi)." The term's misuse has been a personal pet peeve of mine since college (although, for some reason, the amount to which its misuse seems to bother me on a regular basis seems to have decreased significantly since then).

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    And you don't like nitpickers?
    I think the term "nitpicking" is inherently pejorative, pointing to the fact that what the person is complaining about is not really salient, important, or genuinely damaging to whatever the other person is arguing/talking about. As such, yes, I don't like nitpickers. They bring up irrelevant "logical holes" that really aren't worth being brought up.

    Now, do I like genuinely good, worthwhile criticism/discussion? Absolutely.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I think logically nitpicking on someone who is seen as being inaccurate is quite common for a 5 since it's a way for us to relieve of anxiety in a similar manner like how 6s start questioning everything.
    Yeah, it's just very weinerish.

    At least when it fits what I described above.

    It's like a 6 who goes way out of bounds/off the range while questioning things.

    There's worthwhile critique/criticism, and non-worthwhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Fine, I doubt many 5s would openly admit such a thing. That's kind of like 6s rub me the wrong way though because sometimes I'm just rather left believing y'know, since I came up with that in order to relieve myself of anxiety.
    Yeah, I get it.

    That's why I said 6s are more committed to the truth, tho.

    You guys are willing/wanting to believe your own bullshit in order to relieve your anxiety.

    We, on the other hand, will not allow ourselves to simply believe something that is unfounded in order to make us feel better.

    (although, frankly, in order to be healthy, that's kind of what we have to learn to do [i.e., move towards 9II [the gut/instinct/instrinsic])

    Quote Originally Posted by senza tema View Post
    Off topic, but for the record, @BlackCat thinks you're an oddly beta-ish LIE too, just like LeaT. I have to say I concur.
    Yeah, he said as much recently on my wall or in a rep.

    I just don't get the reason for using Socionics-speak, when you can just say ENTJ (as he did, I believe).

    I mean this discussion's been had a good amount (as in that thread I posted, et al).

    The "beta-ish" side if probably related to my 6ness and/or Libraness.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    Do you happen to run North Korea?
    Sigh, I am not even going to bother. This is why I got issues with 6s and Se types. It's clear the way we understand things is too different.

    Yeah, well, I think you used a lot of the rote 6 description from some of the more popular, but not all that great, enneagram theorists. 6s, frankly, are just as, if not more, philosophical, than 5s. We just don't trust our gut like 5s do. And, as such, as I said, we have a certain greater objectivity. 5s believe their own bullshit. 6s don't.
    To be fair, most of the knowledge I have collected about all the typology systems come from reading other people's posts about the subject. I will admit my understanding of 6 is not that great but I still think it's wrong to say that either type would be more honest/truthful whatever because it clearly creates an unfair value judgement making it sound like 6s are better than 5s, even if it just means this regard. Not true and you know this as well.

    Which is why I'd prefer to not make any such value judgements at all. Different kinds of truths doesn't mean one is more inherently important than the other.

    I was referring to the "pragmatic" side of 6s vs 5s, and the more "solely for truth's sake" side of 5s vs 6s, that you were pointing to.

    It's more of a Ji vs Je thing.
    That's not what you initially said, though.
    http://www.typologycentral.com/forum...rathustra.html

    There's a whole thread in which this was pretty thoroughly hashed out a long time ago.

    In fact, I addressed the topic in my very first post on the forum (which is quoted there).
    Well, I could look at it although it doesn't make the Se you're expressing here in my face any less in my face.

    I wouldn't give yourself that much credit.

    As I said, I am high in Se.
    [/quote]
    Yes, I notice.
    And compared to most INTJs, I am highly extroverted.

    As I say in that thread, I am right on the boundary of introvert and extrovert.

    But I fall just on the introverted side of the introvert/extrovert divide.

    There are a number of reasons why this is the case.

    But I understand why people think me an extrovert.

    I am an introvert who forced himself to extrovert.

    Also, 6s are the most ambiverted enneagram type.

    As such, INTJ 6s are more extroverted than the more common INTJ 5s.
    Err, I am not sure I agree with how you interpret the introverted/extroverted axis here since I hold more of a Jungian point of view that the dominant function will either be introverted or extroverted and this determines whether you are introverted or extroverted, not whether you are socially introverted/extroverted or not. Personally. But whatever, I won't argue the point.

    Oh, I've looked into it plenty.
    I meant from my point of you, not yours. I obviously understand you looked into it.

    I just talk in terms of MBTI, not Socionics.

    I think the supposed conceptual divide between Socionics and MBTI/Beebe/others is false.

    I think they're all based off the same source material (Jung), and the INTJs are INTps, ENTJs are LIEs, etc.
    Well, I disagree but I don't think based on this exchange that there's much point for me to argue because I just think we're going to misunderstand each other.

    Well, there's a complete difference between whether criticism is founded/unfounded and whether it is constructive to point out such criticisms (as I pointed to in my earlier post). Whether or not the ratio of criticism being founded to unfounded is inordinately skewed to the latter is going to come down to the individual involved. And, lastly, superego frustration can exist for perfectly sound reasons.
    I am not saying superego frustration cannot exist for legitimate reasons. I am saying that unhealthy types can push it to well, an unhealthy degree.

    Why is this?

    What types of things do these tend to be?
    Can't think of anything specific but for example some people make it their mission to call out mistypes.

    No offense, but your repeated use of the term logical here seems retarded to me.

    In practice, this terms tends to mean little more than "this thing I'm complaining about doesn't make sense to me/fit into my subjective logical schema (i.e., Pi)." The term's misuse has been a personal pet peeve of mine since college (although, for some reason, the amount to which its misuse seems to bother me on a regular basis seems to have decreased significantly since then).
    Ok?

    I think the term "nitpicking" is inherently pejorative, pointing to the fact that what the person is complaining about is not really salient, important, or genuinely damaging to whatever the other person is arguing/talking about. As such, yes, I don't like nitpickers. They bring up irrelevant "logical holes" that really aren't worth being brought up.
    I think nitpicking nowadays can equally well just refer to deconstructing someone else's post or similar. Personally.

    Now, do I like genuinely good, worthwhile criticism/discussion? Absolutely.
    I didn't say I didn't.

    Yeah, it's just very weinerish.

    At least when it fits what I described above.

    It's like a 6 who goes way out of bounds/off the range while questioning things.

    There's worthwhile critique/criticism, and non-worthwhile.
    I do think it's more of an example of average to unhealthy behavior.

    Yeah, I get it.

    That's why I said 6s are more committed to the truth, tho.
    Depends on what the truth is or how we understand truth.

    You guys are willing/wanting to believe your own bullshit in order to relieve your anxiety.

    We, on the other hand, will not allow ourselves to simply believe something that is unfounded in order to make us feel better.

    (although, frankly, in order to be healthy, that's kind of what we have to learn to do [i.e., move towards 9II [the gut/instinct/instrinsic])
    But you might as well not find anything or see things where there are no such things.

    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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  6. #26
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    This is an interesting thread.

    Well, I find myself more baffled and amused by 1 and 8 than anything else. 1s' brand of frustration is one that drives me up a wall sometimes though, especially when it comes to their anger towards other people's actions. What are you trying to change? How is changing something or getting wound up about something going to affect you? It's like they can't accept things the way they are. I vibe much better with 8s personally, though I do find them kind of amusing. Sometimes I find that I am a bit indulgent in certain things, and a lot of my character is plagued by this need to overcome some sort of numbness or lack of substance. I can be more explosive rather than something contained that eventually boils over, and I think that 9 really is the place between containment and explosion. They cancel each other out, creating some sense of "numbness" or "calm." And most 9s are more or less bent towards one or two of those extremes (hence the wings). I find myself being somewhat contained and cool-headed in more stressful situations though, when everything seems to be falling through the holes.

    Though others have typed me as a 6w5, probably due to my somewhat ambivalent nature towards people and my "pragmatic" nature, between 5 and 6, I'd probably identify with a stronger pull towards 5. I don't completely doubt my predictions or ideas about something, but confirmation never hurt anyone. Even if I am wrong I can always go back to the drawing board and fix it. Being wrong about something rarely leaves me feeling uprooted after all. Trust and reliability are also two things that aren't primary drivers for me, even though I do have a bit of skepticism working for me.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    I vibe much better with 8s personally, though I do find them kind of amusing.
    I would love to hear more elaboration on your reaction to type 8 if you have a chance or the desire to elaborate - it's very interesting to me!

    I had an ex who was a 9 (possibly w8) and we got along very well, and I have nothing but respect for him even post-breakup, but there was a major divide in our mindset and the way we approach things. He would decide he wants to do something and "do it at his own pace" whenever he felt like it, whereas I would set a course and take action in a very pragmatic, focused way. I found him lazy sometimes, and he found me too intense to the point where he would have to remind me that there's a world outside my current project. I would say, in retrospect, he actually was not any less productive than I. It's just, he had this lax approach and to me, who has a mypopic mind and focuses on a goal and bulldozes until I accomplish it, his style of 'doing it on his own unorganized time' didn't make any sense. But from his perspective I went overboard. What's funny is, once a project is finished, I would be apt to do almost nothing for a little while to start planning my next goal or let my next ideas percolate, and he would say, "have you even left the house this week?" ... but once I got focused I stayed that way, whereas he would waver back and forth. I would be curious if you've had similar experiences with 8s or observations.
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  8. #28
    Transient Faceless Beauty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    I would love to hear more elaboration on your reaction to type 8 if you have a chance or the desire to elaborate - it's very interesting to me!

    I had an ex who was a 9 (possibly w8) and we got along very well, and I have nothing but respect for him even post-breakup, but there was a major divide in our mindset and the way we approach things. He would decide he wants to do something and "do it at his own pace" whenever he felt like it, whereas I would set a course and take action in a very pragmatic, focused way. I found him lazy sometimes, and he found me too intense to the point where he would have to remind me that there's a world outside my current project. I would say, in retrospect, he actually was not any less productive than I. It's just, he had this lax approach and to me, who has a mypopic mind and focuses on a goal and bulldozes until I accomplish it, his style of 'doing it on his own unorganized time' didn't make any sense. But from his perspective I went overboard. What's funny is, once a project is finished, I would be apt to do almost nothing for a little while to start planning my next goal or let my next ideas percolate, and he would say, "have you even left the house this week?" ... but once I got focused I stayed that way, whereas he would waver back and forth. I would be curious if you've had similar experiences with 8s or observations.
    The only differences I can see in myself and some 8s is that they seem to overdo things quite a bit. And I'd have to agree with his perspective on this. I am not sure if I know any 8s in my real life, but with some of the 8s I've talked to online just come off as people with a great sense of humor and this tough exterior that is admirable I suppose. I think that people misunderstand 8s and assume that they are just intense and abrasive, when in reality they're just go-getters that really go for something when they get stuck on it. When they really get into something, they really put more effort and energy into something than I ever could. But one difference is that sometimes I just can't be arsed to care that much. That may give people the impression that I am lazy or relaxed, but sometimes I just don't see the purpose in getting invested into something that's fleeting I guess. (Even your example of doing nothing after all the fanfare died out was just funny, and it's exactly why I have a hard time doing that).

    The best example of an 8w9 that I can think of is my grandfather, I think he's very well integrated at this stage of his life. People tend to think he is too harsh and demanding, but in reality he really is not. He just constantly feels the need to work against having a lack of things I guess (that's probably where my mother gets it). And when he goes on his rants about wanting to do things in life, and passing on his advice to me, I usually just have a laugh. Some people might interpret his gospel of "fetching for yourself" and his love of being self-sufficient as being cold, but I can really understand that he just views that as the only way to survive more or less and he likes the sense of autonomy and limitlessness that comes with it I guess. And I would have to say that those are things I would like to have as well.
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  9. #29
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    Haha, something that amazes me about 9s and boggles my mind:

    I'll talk to a 9, and she'll say "Meh, I'm a really lazy person, I don't feel like doing much. I wish I had your drive." Then, I'll know her for a year and it will come up in conversation that she has a triple-major. Four months later I'll learn she has a really good side-job. A year later I'll find out she has a closet full of incredible paintings. But all the while the self-image is "I'm lazy."

    This happened with my ex - he would carry on about how he's not motivated enough or doesn't have the drive to do this or that. Then, I didn't see him for a year and I saw him recently and during that time, he recorded and wrote an entire album on his own on his crappy PC at home, where he recorded all the parts himself, from drums to vocals, and figured out how to mix it and use cheap equipment to get it sounding good, while working full time and giving most of his money to his parents, and playing in another band. But when he's telling me about his album, he's telling me about all the stuff that he hasn't done yet because he's lazy.

    The enneagram is so beautiful as @LeaT mentioned - it's funny how 9 has this 'disconnect' from the gut and is in between a very motivated, driven type and another extremely competence-focused perfectionist type. It's like every 9 has a hidden perfectionist bulldozer inside but feels disconnected from it, so they seem modest and laid-back and non-threatening; meanwhile this hidden drive keeps the 9 going in this magical way that I can't understand for the life of me, but somehow leads to amazing accomplishments while they're not looking.

    It's so different from how I operate. When I'm doing something the world knows I'm here. Anyone I talk to finds out what I'm doing, and that I don't have much time to catch up because I'm working so hard. The goal becomes my entire reality. Naranjo's phrasing "phallic narcissistic personality" is so accurate for 8s imo - I feel that drive and it can feel like a guy who is so focused on some woman he wants to bang, like he's not thinking with his head. Once I get going I don't even think anymore, I just AIM. I can do this for 16 hours a day for months or years. But I can also relax for long periods, and strategize or plan the next thing or just let my thoughts percolate, to the point where people who know me are asking "What are you doing? Are you depressed? Is something wrong?" - but I'm not depressed - I am just letting things percolate so I'll get going on the next goal and never have to think anymore until it's done. But unlike a 9, even when I'm less productive, my self-image is that of a pragmatic, focused person who is "always going."

    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    The only differences I can see in myself and some 8s is that they seem to overdo things quite a bit. And I'd have to agree with his perspective on this. I am not sure if I know any 8s in my real life, but with some of the 8s I've talked to online just come off as people with a great sense of humor and this tough exterior that is admirable I suppose. I think that people misunderstand 8s and assume that they are just intense and abrasive, when in reality they're just go-getters that really go for something when they get stuck on it.
    The way you phrase this is accurate to me, haha, "when they get stuck on it." I get stuck on things like that.

    But I think 8s can learn from 9s that it's possible to care about something and do it well, without having to conquer and consume. Still, no matter how many times I see that this is possible, it will never be the way I work. I just can't imagine really putting my heart into a project without being propelled by my lust-drive. It simply doesn't register. It can become problematic when my heart isn't "in it anymore" and I have more to get done, like re-writing a book a million times for publishers, for instance. But problematic as I know it can be, I still live for that rush of the lust drive and it underlies most of my accomplishments.

    When they really get into something, they really put more effort and energy into something than I ever could. But one difference is that sometimes I just can't be arsed to care that much. That may give people the impression that I am lazy or relaxed, but sometimes I just don't see the purpose in getting invested into something that's fleeting I guess. (Even your example of doing nothing after all the fanfare died out was just funny, and it's exactly why I have a hard time doing that).
    When you say it's why you'd have a hard time doing it, do you mean because you're worried that if you put that much energy into something, you'd eventually collapse?

    Do you find that you're able to get a lot done but you just don't approach it with consciousness of that kind of vigor?

    The best example of an 8w9 that I can think of is my grandfather, I think he's very well integrated at this stage of his life. People tend to think he is too harsh and demanding, but in reality he really is not. He just constantly feels the need to work against having a lack of things I guess (that's probably where my mother gets it). And when he goes on his rants about wanting to do things in life, and passing on his advice to me, I usually just have a laugh. Some people might interpret his gospel of "fetching for yourself" and his love of being self-sufficient as being cold, but I can really understand that he just views that as the only way to survive more or less and he likes the sense of autonomy and limitlessness that comes with it I guess. And I would have to say that those are things I would like to have as well.
    ^^ I like that - the bolded phrase is especially a turn-on to me.
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  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by flatlander View Post
    How do you relate to your wings?

    I was thinking the other day along these lines, and found that I was curiously repelled by the psychology, just the idea, of both of my wings (I'm a core 5), even more so for the 4 than the 6, though I have enjoyed acquaintence with individuals of both cores. I scorn the 4 idea of attaching oneself to one's emotions and having a psychology based in envy, and I ward strongly against the kind of existential doubt that informs the 6, instead confident in the understanding I have gathered and holding it to a logical scale of probability when necessary. On the other hand, I can see intellectually/logically where each of these forces goes toward creating the core: when you combine envy and doubt, you get, quite naturally, avarice. And I can see both wings in my behavior.

    Do you share this kind of relation to the wings around you? If not, how do they act within your psychology?
    I hadn't realized it until I saw this thread, but 8s and 1s both have a pretty strong drive to correct. But as a passive type and a positive outlook type, 9s feel much less of this.

    I can be assertive when I need to be, but I prefer being in a state of receptivity most of the time. What understanding I gain from this neutral position I direct outward via more 1-like skills, like redirecting focus towards purpose and ground rules. ex. When those in an argument ignore criteria like social protocol and logic, or lose sight of their goals in the heat of debate, I try to correct these issues as subtly as I can. That's also an 8 thing, minus the subtlety. But it's more out of a need to do/be right than out of a need to control. (Not to cast 8s in an unfavorable light.) That being said, I hate how nit-picky 1s can be, and admire 8s' strong will and love of challenge.

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