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  1. #1
    defying your expectations SoraMayhem's Avatar
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    Default What's *really* the difference between a 4w5 and a 5w4?

    I mean, really nitty-gritty stuff here. Is it the identification to the heart or head type? What are some themes that are present and lacking in each? Any illuminating examples or tests/open eneded questions would be appreciated.
    4w5-1w2-5w4 -- RLUAI -- Chaotic Good/Neutral

    Johari -- Nohari

    Ask me about my crippling social dysfunction!

  2. #2
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    This is a super simple distinction that Naranjo makes (perhaps too simple?):

    E4 & E5, sharing the bottom of the enneagram, share the under-dog identification that implies feelings of inferiority and guilt as well as a submissive tendency. While e4 hangs onto relationships in the face of frustration, however, e5 gives up, and while the depression typical of e4 is -in line with its emotional background- one of grief, weeping, and self-accusation, the depression of e5 is one of dryness, hollowness, a forlornness in which grief seems to be buried under a layer of resignation. On the whole, we may say that e4 is intense, e5 the least intense after e9.

    Naranjo frequently describes 5s as being resigned, whereas 4s have great resentment. As a 4w5, the 4 resentment rings truer for me than being resigned, although I experience that at times in some areas. I imagine a 5 sometimes experiences resentment at things like intrusion or interruption, but they're not characterized by it like a 4, and it probably doesn't have that "other-directed" quality of envy.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  3. #3
    WALMART
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is a super simple distinction that Naranjo makes (perhaps too simple?):

    E4 & E5, sharing the bottom of the enneagram, share the under-dog identification that implies feelings of inferiority and guilt as well as a submissive tendency. While e4 hangs onto relationships in the face of frustration, however, e5 gives up, and while the depression typical of e4 is -in line with its emotional background- one of grief, weeping, and self-accusation, the depression of e5 is one of dryness, hollowness, a forlornness in which grief seems to be buried under a layer of resignation. On the whole, we may say that e4 is intense, e5 the least intense after e9.

    Naranjo frequently describes 5s as being resigned, whereas 4s have great resentment. As a 4w5, the 4 resentment rings truer for me than being resigned, although I experience that at times in some areas. I imagine a 5 sometimes experiences resentment at things like intrusion or interruption, but they're not characterized by it like a 4, and it probably doesn't have that "other-directed" quality of envy.

    I very much enjoyed this.

  4. #4
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    I think another difference has to do with reaction to emotion. e5s tend to moderate emotion, wanting to withdraw, observe, and analyze. e4s tends to want to intensify emotion, wanting to plum the depth and experience uniquely.

    I feel there's a similar dynamic with relationships (as OA said). An e5 is more likely to be resigned to isolation, while an e4 is more likely to envy and/or resent the connection he/she lacks.

  5. #5
    As Long As It Takes.... Redbone's Avatar
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    I can identify with being resigned to isolation. I disagree about not being intense, though. There's a deeply buried, hidden emotional aquifer there. It just takes something or someone with an unnameable quality to actually tap it.

    5s can be incredibly sensitive but often cope with it by withdrawing from the world. It's just easier to close the door, climb the tower stairs, and watch the world from there.

  6. #6
    Junior Member Alight owl's Avatar
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    My husband is 5w4 and I'm 4w5. Just to speak to outward appearances, I think that he tends to come off as withdrawn and isolated - nerdy and intense, but not quite emotionally there. I, however, come off as highly emotional but also withdrawn and reserved. People describe me as sexual, but not him (even though he is sx/so). I am much more inclined to talk about my feelings, with everyone (may be an infj thing), and he is more inclined to find a subject of interest and talk about that, leaving personal feelings out of it.


    Not to say (at all) that he doesn't have strong feelings - he DOES. And so do I. But we do deal with them really differently. I tend to intellectualize my feelings because I am ashamed of them, of being so sensitive and so changeable. His feelings are much more hidden under the surface. He can go for weeks without knowing that he is depressed (even though I'll know) and finally break down after a particularly stressful day. I can go awhile too, trying to intellectualize it the whole time, but it will show through a lot in my daily life and I'll have to come to terms with it sooner. He is much better at zoning out when he feels bad about something, and much more likely to try to hide it from both himself and from me. I'm more likely to start fights because I want him to emote when that happens. I get mad at him because I think that he is intentionally hiding something from me. But it is usually not intentional, he just doesn't know how to access it. He tells me that he needs my help accessing it. I feel much more shame -> inability to act (or inappropriate action) because of shame -> and consequent resentment than he does. He is much, much more resigned than me.

    Oh, and I'm better at comforting others than he is. My friends like me because we connect emotionally and they feel comfortable talking to me. But he is good at it too, and some of his friends trust him with a lot of personal issues because he is a very keen observer. He seems much more objective than I do though, and I seem probably excessively subjective.

    His great fear is his own mind - he calls it cavernous, dark, empty, and terrifying. In the past, he was also afraid of insignificance in the universe. (becoming an atheist helped him a great deal with that in his early 20s.) My great fear is that no one will ever really know me. I feel extremely isolated from the world and unable to share my whole self with it. (I'm not an atheist because I think it's asking the wrong question. I would rather ask: what makes us need God?).

    Also, I think it's particularly helpful to look at directions of integration and disintegration to find differences between the two, because the types are so similar. 4w5 disintegrates to unhealthy 1 or 2 (both for me)- getting emotionally clingy and desperate for attention and validation of feelings and, conversely, demanding and short-tempered, perfectionistic. 5w4 disintegrates to 7 or 8 (both for my husband), becoming really ADD, like, the mind is going a million miles a minute and it's really hard to stay present (he gets actually bouncy with anxiety at those times), and also angry as all hell. The anger is usually righteous anger, aimed at something that he has no control over. My 1 anger is nitpicky and bitchy, focused on how others aren't meeting my expectations. Usually these don't all happen at the same time, but they do all happen to both of us depending on circumstance.

    Dress: he doesn't give two shits about what he is wearing. Now that we're 30, he is starting to want to dress more like 'himself', but historically it doesn't matter to him. It's like, what is clean? That's fine. I am not that way - I will dress in whatever fits my mood. Sometimes I wear black slinky dresses, and sometimes I wear sweatpants, but it's always an attempt to display my mood.

    Hope this helps - are you trying to decide if you're core 4 or 5? I know it can be really hard. It took me years to know my enneatype, and partly tritype helped - I'm 469. Especially if you're 4-5 or 5-4, I think that would be really difficult to discern-- Good luck.

  7. #7
    Junior Member Alight owl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    This is a super simple distinction that Naranjo makes (perhaps too simple?):

    E4 & E5, sharing the bottom of the enneagram, share the under-dog identification that implies feelings of inferiority and guilt as well as a submissive tendency. While e4 hangs onto relationships in the face of frustration, however, e5 gives up, and while the depression typical of e4 is -in line with its emotional background- one of grief, weeping, and self-accusation, the depression of e5 is one of dryness, hollowness, a forlornness in which grief seems to be buried under a layer of resignation. On the whole, we may say that e4 is intense, e5 the least intense after e9.

    Naranjo frequently describes 5s as being resigned, whereas 4s have great resentment. As a 4w5, the 4 resentment rings truer for me than being resigned, although I experience that at times in some areas. I imagine a 5 sometimes experiences resentment at things like intrusion or interruption, but they're not characterized by it like a 4, and it probably doesn't have that "other-directed" quality of envy.

    I think you're spot on on this one - I am constantly seeking out new relationships or ways of being known, and being subsequently disappointed and depressed when they don't work out for me (ie when I am left with the feeling of being unknown). I will usually then get a burst of energy and try to be known again (through people, art, books, whatever).

    I see e5 as being more resigned as well, coping with feelings of isolation more by withdrawing and waiting...

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