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How would you differentiate between Fours and Nines?
- Thread starter mintleaf
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Rasofy
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Rail Tracer
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That hit the spot alright.
G
Glycerine
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9: light vibe
4: dark vibe
4: dark vibe
mintleaf
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well, there's a description of 9w1s I found awhile ago that I strongly, strongly identify with:
why I think I could be a 4:
then again, some of the 4s I know can aggravate me - I see them as overly concerned with individuality and emotional highs
so I'm leaning towards 9, but I'm not sure.
why I think I could be a 4:
- I have this obsession with authenticity that seems more common to 4s
- lack of intensity can make me very uneasy. (could just be because I'm on an SSRI that seems to be preventing intense emotion. also, I've heard that 9's worst fear is fragmentation and loss, and considering how emotional I was before, it could also be that I sense an incongruity between my previous self and current self and it's freaking me out.)
- I dislike conflict, but I prefer confrontation over avoidance by far. if anything, it makes me feel better, because I'd rather have everything out in the open. jumpstarts a process of resolution.
- I've heard 9s described as being prone to passive aggression and obsessive behavior, which doesn't fit me well.
then again, some of the 4s I know can aggravate me - I see them as overly concerned with individuality and emotional highs
so I'm leaning towards 9, but I'm not sure.
G
Glycerine
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How about 9w8?
mintleaf
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I'd never considered that before, but it's possible. and there's such a thing as being wingless, right?
Some questions I have (which I've mined from my own observations)
- Do you have a strong sense of identity (you know who you are no matter how much you try and deceive yourself) but feel you lack a definition in the real world or are unsure of where you identity would fit in the world?
- Is the idea of being insignificant or dying as "an average Joe" or one of the masses absolutely abhorrent to you?
- Do you find yourself being aloof or ignorant to "what's hip and cool" and so judge your image solely on your own terms with your only guide being your inner identity's sense on whether you're being authentic or not to who you are? (This may be more of a 4w5 issue or a 4w3 issue.)
- To expand on the above question: do you have to put the effort in to be "unique" or an "individual" or does it occur naturally/appear naturally different without any conscious attempt on your part? Do you feel fake or shame of yourself if you find yourself and feel the need to consciously force yourself to seem different (especially if you feel you need to impress or attract others?)
- Is there an absence of any real sense of "connection" in your life to others however when content or in a good mood you are unconcerned with this lack of connection (you may feel lonely or fundamentally isolated at times however?)
- Is there a very strong sense of feeling of being both inferior to a person in some regards but also superior to that same person in other respects?
- Do you look at your self (your inner self) and "feel" the missing piece? Do you find yourself believing you are sufficient when looking at yourself from one angle but when looking at your inner self from another you find yourself insufficient? In both cases do you immediately start envying and longing to have what you believe others possess?
- Does part of you feel comfortable and happy with you feeling depressed or having intense inner emotion (sometimes even to the point of suicidal misery) because it makes you feel alive but you have to feel like this from your own devices and on your own terms? Do you hate another person if they forced this state on you against your wishes?
- Do you feel unique and an individual different from everyone and everything in the world and whilst you feel a degree of relief when you meet people who "understand you" you feel sad that you're not as unique as you first thought?
- Do you sometimes wonder whether you are fundamentally unlovable and that whilst your inner world is vast and great you feel you could not share your self with another and that you have less to offer a mate than other people?
- Do you like to indulge yourself in fantasy which you know is not true (type 4) or do you like to idealise reality perhaps without realising you are doing it? (type 9)
Those are some questions off the top of my head.
- Do you have a strong sense of identity (you know who you are no matter how much you try and deceive yourself) but feel you lack a definition in the real world or are unsure of where you identity would fit in the world?
- Is the idea of being insignificant or dying as "an average Joe" or one of the masses absolutely abhorrent to you?
- Do you find yourself being aloof or ignorant to "what's hip and cool" and so judge your image solely on your own terms with your only guide being your inner identity's sense on whether you're being authentic or not to who you are? (This may be more of a 4w5 issue or a 4w3 issue.)
- To expand on the above question: do you have to put the effort in to be "unique" or an "individual" or does it occur naturally/appear naturally different without any conscious attempt on your part? Do you feel fake or shame of yourself if you find yourself and feel the need to consciously force yourself to seem different (especially if you feel you need to impress or attract others?)
- Is there an absence of any real sense of "connection" in your life to others however when content or in a good mood you are unconcerned with this lack of connection (you may feel lonely or fundamentally isolated at times however?)
- Is there a very strong sense of feeling of being both inferior to a person in some regards but also superior to that same person in other respects?
- Do you look at your self (your inner self) and "feel" the missing piece? Do you find yourself believing you are sufficient when looking at yourself from one angle but when looking at your inner self from another you find yourself insufficient? In both cases do you immediately start envying and longing to have what you believe others possess?
- Does part of you feel comfortable and happy with you feeling depressed or having intense inner emotion (sometimes even to the point of suicidal misery) because it makes you feel alive but you have to feel like this from your own devices and on your own terms? Do you hate another person if they forced this state on you against your wishes?
- Do you feel unique and an individual different from everyone and everything in the world and whilst you feel a degree of relief when you meet people who "understand you" you feel sad that you're not as unique as you first thought?
- Do you sometimes wonder whether you are fundamentally unlovable and that whilst your inner world is vast and great you feel you could not share your self with another and that you have less to offer a mate than other people?
- Do you like to indulge yourself in fantasy which you know is not true (type 4) or do you like to idealise reality perhaps without realising you are doing it? (type 9)
Those are some questions off the top of my head.
mintleaf
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These are really interesting questions.
- Do you have a strong sense of identity (you know who you are no matter how much you try and deceive yourself) but feel you lack a definition in the real world or are unsure of where you identity would fit in the world? - Yes.
- Is the idea of being insignificant or dying as "an average Joe" or one of the masses absolutely abhorrent to you? I would never want to be famous - I would only want friends/family/coworkers to be mourning my death - but I'd like to feel as though I made a significant impact beyond those personal circles.
- Do you find yourself being aloof or ignorant to "what's hip and cool" and so judge your image solely on your own terms with your only guide being your inner identity's sense on whether you're being authentic or not to who you are? (This may be more of a 4w5 issue or a 4w3 issue.) This is hard to answer. I don't look for ways to contradict social norms just for the hell of it (for example, Lady Gaga), and I am concerned with how I'm perceived; I don't think that a moderate level of conformism (when it doesn't go against one's values/personality) is necessarily inauthentic. That being said, I'm confident enough in who I am to voice unpopular opinions and stray from "what's hip and cool" when my taste differs.
- To expand on the above question: do you have to put the effort in to be "unique" or an "individual" or does it occur naturally/appear naturally different without any conscious attempt on your part? Do you feel fake or shame of yourself if you find yourself and feel the need to consciously force yourself to seem different (especially if you feel you need to impress or attract others?) - Honestly, I don't think I've ever put effort into being "unique." it's not something I think about; I just try to be authentic.
- Is there an absence of any real sense of "connection" in your life to others however when content or in a good mood you are unconcerned with this lack of connection (you may feel lonely or fundamentally isolated at times however?) I really value my relationships with others, but no, it's rare that I feel truly connected to someone. I tend to be concerned about it - I just push it to the back of my mind easily.
- Is there a very strong sense of feeling of being both inferior to a person in some regards but also superior to that same person in other respects? Yes.
- Do you look at your self (your inner self) and "feel" the missing piece? Do you find yourself believing you are sufficient when looking at yourself from one angle but when looking at your inner self from another you find yourself insufficient? In both cases do you immediately start envying and longing to have what you believe others possess? it's more of a longing for what I could have than envy of others, because what's fitting for someone else might not be what's fitting for me. yes to everything else
- Does part of you feel comfortable and happy with you feeling depressed or having intense inner emotion (sometimes even to the point of suicidal misery) because it makes you feel alive but you have to feel like this from your own devices and on your own terms? Do you hate another person if they forced this state on you against your wishes? - This reminds me of something that the idea that "pain demands to be felt." If I ever feel comfortable being sad, it's always because the sadness was already there, just below the surface, numbed and unresolved. it can be a relief when it resurfaces, providing a way to deal with it straightforwardly. But usually, no. Depression isn't something I revel in. I opt for the numbness, or try to resolve it as best I can.
- Do you feel unique and an individual different from everyone and everything in the world and whilst you feel a degree of relief when you meet people who "understand you" you feel sad that you're not as unique as you first thought? - I don't feel different from everyone in the world, no. In my circles, yes. I feel a hell of a lot of relief when I meet people who understand me, and I'm not saddened by the common ground - jealous of their own strengths, maybe, but not of their uniqueness.
- Do you sometimes wonder whether you are fundamentally unlovable and that whilst your inner world is vast and great you feel you could not share your self with another and that you have less to offer a mate than other people? - yes
- Do you like to indulge yourself in fantasy which you know is not true (type 4) or do you like to idealise reality perhaps without realising you are doing it? (type 9) I like to think that I never idealize anything, I just strive to see everything as it is. So, more inclined towards fantasy.
- Do you have a strong sense of identity (you know who you are no matter how much you try and deceive yourself) but feel you lack a definition in the real world or are unsure of where you identity would fit in the world? - Yes.
- Is the idea of being insignificant or dying as "an average Joe" or one of the masses absolutely abhorrent to you? I would never want to be famous - I would only want friends/family/coworkers to be mourning my death - but I'd like to feel as though I made a significant impact beyond those personal circles.
- Do you find yourself being aloof or ignorant to "what's hip and cool" and so judge your image solely on your own terms with your only guide being your inner identity's sense on whether you're being authentic or not to who you are? (This may be more of a 4w5 issue or a 4w3 issue.) This is hard to answer. I don't look for ways to contradict social norms just for the hell of it (for example, Lady Gaga), and I am concerned with how I'm perceived; I don't think that a moderate level of conformism (when it doesn't go against one's values/personality) is necessarily inauthentic. That being said, I'm confident enough in who I am to voice unpopular opinions and stray from "what's hip and cool" when my taste differs.
- To expand on the above question: do you have to put the effort in to be "unique" or an "individual" or does it occur naturally/appear naturally different without any conscious attempt on your part? Do you feel fake or shame of yourself if you find yourself and feel the need to consciously force yourself to seem different (especially if you feel you need to impress or attract others?) - Honestly, I don't think I've ever put effort into being "unique." it's not something I think about; I just try to be authentic.
- Is there an absence of any real sense of "connection" in your life to others however when content or in a good mood you are unconcerned with this lack of connection (you may feel lonely or fundamentally isolated at times however?) I really value my relationships with others, but no, it's rare that I feel truly connected to someone. I tend to be concerned about it - I just push it to the back of my mind easily.
- Is there a very strong sense of feeling of being both inferior to a person in some regards but also superior to that same person in other respects? Yes.
- Do you look at your self (your inner self) and "feel" the missing piece? Do you find yourself believing you are sufficient when looking at yourself from one angle but when looking at your inner self from another you find yourself insufficient? In both cases do you immediately start envying and longing to have what you believe others possess? it's more of a longing for what I could have than envy of others, because what's fitting for someone else might not be what's fitting for me. yes to everything else
- Does part of you feel comfortable and happy with you feeling depressed or having intense inner emotion (sometimes even to the point of suicidal misery) because it makes you feel alive but you have to feel like this from your own devices and on your own terms? Do you hate another person if they forced this state on you against your wishes? - This reminds me of something that the idea that "pain demands to be felt." If I ever feel comfortable being sad, it's always because the sadness was already there, just below the surface, numbed and unresolved. it can be a relief when it resurfaces, providing a way to deal with it straightforwardly. But usually, no. Depression isn't something I revel in. I opt for the numbness, or try to resolve it as best I can.
- Do you feel unique and an individual different from everyone and everything in the world and whilst you feel a degree of relief when you meet people who "understand you" you feel sad that you're not as unique as you first thought? - I don't feel different from everyone in the world, no. In my circles, yes. I feel a hell of a lot of relief when I meet people who understand me, and I'm not saddened by the common ground - jealous of their own strengths, maybe, but not of their uniqueness.
- Do you sometimes wonder whether you are fundamentally unlovable and that whilst your inner world is vast and great you feel you could not share your self with another and that you have less to offer a mate than other people? - yes
- Do you like to indulge yourself in fantasy which you know is not true (type 4) or do you like to idealise reality perhaps without realising you are doing it? (type 9) I like to think that I never idealize anything, I just strive to see everything as it is. So, more inclined towards fantasy.
Burger King
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How are they similar? They're both significantly different.
The stuff you listed here does not point towards 4.
There was someone that used to post here that goes by the username prplchknz (spelling?) who was a 9. There were people who thought this person was a 4 because of emotional outbursts (fuckin' stereotype), but the person was a 9. Despite the volatility, there was a "wateverrr" "eh.." "who cares" attitude towards things. They try to keep their still waters from being pissed in and this was one way it showed up. This is also why they are part of the positive outlook triad. It doesn't mean that they literally have a positive outlook, but there's a floating above the issue quality. Looking directly into themselves too long would equate to staring at the sun. This is one of the many ways the 9 attitude manifests, especially unhealthy.
Your attitude seems similar to this person. It's also pretty revealing when one confuses 4 and 9. I recommend looking into it more, but not to take the descriptions literally. Try to identify the patterns in your life, what your unhealthiest level was like, how others see you, etc etc. Don't add and subtract traits that you have or don't have, rather try to see if you can tie in your motivations towards a particular theme of one of the enneatypes.
Edit: I just read the answers that you gave to standuble. Yeah, not a 4 at all. Especially the feeling depressed thing. The 4 over identifies with their defective feelings, it starts to become an identity. Lots of people see themselves as 4 but so readily want to cure themselves or fix it. A part of their identity is their suffering, and to fully fix that implies changing who they are. At some level they struggle with this, and may view those who readily search for quick fixes as selling out. Also, nines aren't naturally peace-like in there internal landscape. What I realize with the type is that they are actually in a lot of turmoil. The whole peace thing that gets thrown in descriptions is more an ideal, rather than a reality.
mintleaf
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I'm positive I'm a 9 now, but I just found a good comparison here that explains my previous confusion pretty well
and I identify with both the 4 and 9 loops. 4 is associated with the need for self-understanding, 9 with the need for union; in my mind, at least, these goals are easily related. union between a group can't occur without understanding, and self-understanding can't occur without fusing the fragmented pieces of oneself together.
I read about perceptions and health levels (as you mentioned) at EnneagramInstitute, and within a couple minutes it was clear which type fit me best.
sulfit
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Newbyagain
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I have seen a lot of combo Fours and Nines, maybe you have too and that is one reason why you think this. They are sort of similar though. They both can get lazy and have an artistic gift. I think the laziness in both types can stem from emotions, because Nines have the need to merge with others and can be pretty hurt by not getting it, although it is more of a body feeling. Look at Pink the musician and Rihanna and see the difference. I think Rihanna is a 9-4 and Pink is a 4-8. Plus Rihanna is much more accepting than most Fours. I think if she were a Four she wouldn't have been so sweet after Chris Brown and his women.
Newbyagain
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Oh and maybe this will help. I mean this in a cheeky way, but Nines can be turds. Haha. A full blown Four will respond to an offense by being combative, childish, and making a fool out of ourself at times. A full blown Nine, wont respond. You all are simply too good to. It's sort of a stubborn snootiness. Although, you may wait for the perfect time to take advantage of a power play which falls in your lap, like stumbling across somebody's tooth brush and cleaning the toilet with it. Of course that's an extreme example. Haha.
Entropic
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4s and 9s are similar in the sense that both types are withdrawn types but I think that's also pretty much where the similarity ends. As others mentioned, 4s are emotionally volatile, 9s emotionally stable. 4s like to revel in their sense of personal misery and really dig deep into their emotions whereas 9 try to avoid feeling anything, especially pertaining negative emotions, at all. 4s are also reactive in conflict, meaning that when they feel emotionally slighted they will run away and expect others to chase them. If people chase it means they mean something. 9s are as a whole not reactive and tend to do the opposite because 9s dislike conflict.
4 is situated in the heart center so the primary issue they deal with is shame which they cover up with their type's passion being called envy whereas 9 is a gut type and the primary emotion they deal with is anger which they cover up with their type's passion being called sloth. As the words imply, sloth and envy are very different although there are similarities here between the 4 and 9 in that in order for the 4 to be envious, there must always be a constant compare and contrast due to a sense of deficit within themselves. What they have or what they are is never good enough. 9s also contrast and compare themselves to other people but whereas the 4's envy will make them take upon an identity they are not because they are envious, 9s take upon identities they are not because they have difficulties separating themselves from the world around them. Both are ego types but whereas the 4 has a strong sense of ego the 9 does not. The 4's life desire is to create an ego that is unique whereas a 9's life desire is to have their ego entirely merged into the world around them.
Other differences include that 4s suffer from a masochist personailty and often attempt to attract a rescuer. 9 suffer from indolence and psychospiritual laziness which pretty much leads to the opposite attitude of there never being a problem. This is part because 4 is a part of the reactive triad and 9 the positive outlook as it is the positive outlook that makes the 9 inclined to forget and ignore hurts. Both 4s and 9s are prone to create fantasies in their heads about how reality should really be like, but 4s do it because they desire to be something which they are not due to envy. This cannot be better expressed than in the story of Cinderella where Cinderella is looking outside her window, sighing that what if she was a noble princess and she could go to the ball like the others. This is very opposite to how 9s create fantansies because in this scenario the 9 would think more in the lines of, I'm having it so good with the prince being so nice to people in this country, hosting balls for all the nobles to participate in. Our prince is so nice, and they would think this irregardless of whether as a whole, the prince is in fact "nice" or not.
There are probably other similarities and differences but these are the one I can think of from the top of my head.
4 is situated in the heart center so the primary issue they deal with is shame which they cover up with their type's passion being called envy whereas 9 is a gut type and the primary emotion they deal with is anger which they cover up with their type's passion being called sloth. As the words imply, sloth and envy are very different although there are similarities here between the 4 and 9 in that in order for the 4 to be envious, there must always be a constant compare and contrast due to a sense of deficit within themselves. What they have or what they are is never good enough. 9s also contrast and compare themselves to other people but whereas the 4's envy will make them take upon an identity they are not because they are envious, 9s take upon identities they are not because they have difficulties separating themselves from the world around them. Both are ego types but whereas the 4 has a strong sense of ego the 9 does not. The 4's life desire is to create an ego that is unique whereas a 9's life desire is to have their ego entirely merged into the world around them.
Other differences include that 4s suffer from a masochist personailty and often attempt to attract a rescuer. 9 suffer from indolence and psychospiritual laziness which pretty much leads to the opposite attitude of there never being a problem. This is part because 4 is a part of the reactive triad and 9 the positive outlook as it is the positive outlook that makes the 9 inclined to forget and ignore hurts. Both 4s and 9s are prone to create fantasies in their heads about how reality should really be like, but 4s do it because they desire to be something which they are not due to envy. This cannot be better expressed than in the story of Cinderella where Cinderella is looking outside her window, sighing that what if she was a noble princess and she could go to the ball like the others. This is very opposite to how 9s create fantansies because in this scenario the 9 would think more in the lines of, I'm having it so good with the prince being so nice to people in this country, hosting balls for all the nobles to participate in. Our prince is so nice, and they would think this irregardless of whether as a whole, the prince is in fact "nice" or not.
There are probably other similarities and differences but these are the one I can think of from the top of my head.
Amargith
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4= Suffering Artiste
9= Zen Buddhist
Basically, 4s explore *all* their emotions, including the dark ones whereas 9s do their best to ignore their (especially negative) emotions in favour of harmony with others. This means that 4's often have the dramatic diva vibe to them but also are quite comfortable with others being...well, emo as they have experience in that area themselves, and do not mind walking others through that same valley of darkness, whereas 9s are often less comfortable with that, but instead are good at finding what others need to be happy and seeing peoples povs from all angles in order to negotiate a peace.
Downsides are that the 4 can become spellbound with their own broken image and dark side, whereas 9s get passive aggressive coz they ignore their anger and those negative emotions do leak out at some point.
9= Zen Buddhist
Basically, 4s explore *all* their emotions, including the dark ones whereas 9s do their best to ignore their (especially negative) emotions in favour of harmony with others. This means that 4's often have the dramatic diva vibe to them but also are quite comfortable with others being...well, emo as they have experience in that area themselves, and do not mind walking others through that same valley of darkness, whereas 9s are often less comfortable with that, but instead are good at finding what others need to be happy and seeing peoples povs from all angles in order to negotiate a peace.
Downsides are that the 4 can become spellbound with their own broken image and dark side, whereas 9s get passive aggressive coz they ignore their anger and those negative emotions do leak out at some point.
W
WALMART
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[MENTION=16405]LeaT[/MENTION]
I've seen this term applied to nines thrice now, "psyco-spiritual laziness". I thought intently on it the other night, to little avail, and it would be interesting to hear you expound on your understanding of the term.
I've seen this term applied to nines thrice now, "psyco-spiritual laziness". I thought intently on it the other night, to little avail, and it would be interesting to hear you expound on your understanding of the term.
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