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  1. #51
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brainheart View Post
    So perhaps you were trying to capture the positive outlook essence, but that doesn't take away the fact that here is an example of an emotionally unstable nine. You can make comparisons like 'nines are emotionally stable while fours aren't', but there are plenty of depressive, melancholic 9w1s and plenty of optimistic 4w3s. All it does is confuse people. I think, if anything, nines are more likely to appear positive while internally often being quite negative. This is where the resigned apathy comes from. It's a sort of 'things work out great for others and I will make sure things work out great for others but I've given up on myself, because I don't really matter.' That's precisely why nines integrate to three. Threes see themselves as something special, while nines see a lack.

    I would put it more like this: Both fours and nines can be independent and individualistic, but a nine will avoid asserting themselves for the sake of keeping the peace while a four would not. For fours, asserting their individuality trumps peaceful relations, while for nine it's the opposite.
    I never mentioned emotional positivity/negativity in itself, did I? And 4s is a withdrawn type so I am not sure I agree with that logic either.

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  2. #52
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    I experience other people's emotions deeply, and emotions for other people deeply, because they course through my body and pass out the same way wine is converted into urine. I can get drunk on the feeling, but it only numbs me from my own feelings, and in the end it leaves no mark because it is not my own.

    For emotions that pertain to me, ones that "effect me" I almost always numb myself to them. I may have a dream metaphor about my problems and cry about it, but so long as it's not something that causes pain through my concrete experiences, I don't shut it out. Except for anger, which for me, I think, is a type of numbing. I'm 8-like in how I deal with anger, so rather than dealing with pain I often just feel like punching something.

    Also...



    This paragraph, especially the bolded, is how I experience my emotions. I will tend to have physical sensations for a while and have to "relearn" what the emotions mean. For example, I know what shame is, but I can find myself feeling seemingly nothing, and then I think about what I'm experiencing. "I guess I'm trying to hide from other people. What is that feeling? That is shame." Yet I can readily identify those things in other people.
    I can identify with a less extreme form of this for both myself and others. I wonder why you feel others' emotions more strongly than your own? For me it's equal.

  3. #53
    Member Dying Acedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I can identify with a less extreme form of this for both myself and others. I wonder why you feel others' emotions more strongly than your own? For me it's equal.
    It has to do with control. Since my own emotions are spontaneous responses and are grounded in my experiences, they give me pain. So I've habituated myself to be closed off from them. Others' emotions are more distant initially, but I can tune in and get involved as I so choose, so usually I'm accustomed to feeling them more intensely.

    Incidentally, if I'm counseling someone and that person offends me, like literally directly insults me on purpose, for a moment I usually feel pretty intensely angry before "severing the link." Or if I've shut myself in a room with no sensations and am deeply engaged in an activity where I forget myself, any disturbance (opened door, intercom, etc.) will be experienced very intensely before I ramp up to my usual apathetic/numb state. The last one I'd expect most people to relate to somewhat, as it's part of the startle response, but extending that to emotional connection I'm not so sure it's universal.

  4. #54
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    It has to do with control. Since my own emotions are spontaneous responses and are grounded in my experiences, they give me pain. So I've habituated myself to be closed off from them. Others' emotions are more distant initially, but I can tune in and get involved as I so choose, so usually I'm accustomed to feeling them more intensely.

    Incidentally, if I'm counseling someone and that person offends me, like literally directly insults me on purpose, for a moment I usually feel pretty intensely angry before "severing the link." Or if I've shut myself in a room with no sensations and am deeply engaged in an activity where I forget myself, any disturbance (opened door, intercom, etc.) will be experienced very intensely before I ramp up to my usual apathetic/numb state. The last one I'd expect most people to relate to somewhat, as it's part of the startle response, but extending that to emotional connection I'm not so sure it's universal.
    Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.

  5. #55
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafe View Post
    I feel vicarious things intensely and immediately. My own stuff is a little harder to get hold of and I usually don't know what I'm feeling until I bump into something or someone else. Like, I won't know I'm cranky until I feel like snapping at someone. Weather has a huge effect on my moods and if you ask me how I feel, I'm most likely going to settle on a physical sensation like hunger or sleepiness rather than my emotional state.
    Haha. This happened to me today with my sister.

    Actually if I'm cranky by myself, it's easy to tell. Other people displaying their emotions strongly, it can overshadow my own sometimes.
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  6. #56
    Senior Member cafe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.
    Sometimes I don't realize I'm stressed until I notice the physical symptoms or I start making stupid mistakes, like locking my keys in the car or paying for stuff and then walking off without it. Of course, I do some of that stuff even when I'm not stressed.
    “There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.”
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  7. #57
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Interesting. I've noticed that not only is being somewhat out of touch with emotions a trait of INTP's and to some extent ENTP's, it is also common to E-9's and INFJ's (although INFJ's are highly variable, and NTP's can of course be emotional).

  8. #58
    Member Dying Acedia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.
    Well, the 4 fixation is "melancholy" (sorrow), meaning that they cling onto their suffering (nearly opposite of 9). So if nothing else, 4s consciously suffer more often and completely than their 9 counterparts. Usually this means that 4s will perceive themselves as having more intense negative emotions than others around them.

  9. #59
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by KazeCraven View Post
    Well, the 4 fixation is "melancholy" (sorrow), meaning that they cling onto their suffering (nearly opposite of 9). So if nothing else, 4s consciously suffer more often and completely than their 9 counterparts. Usually this means that 4s will perceive themselves as having more intense negative emotions than others around them.
    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    Sorry for not reading the entire thread, but would I be right in guessing that 4's experience their own emotions more intensely than others, or at least more intensely than 9's? This is the gist of what I've read about 9's, as it says that the way they deal with stress is to become numb.
    Yes, this is why Naranjo calls them masochist. They revel in their own personal pain and suffering.

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