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  1. #31
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Bringin' @greenfairy into this thread b/c she was stuck between these two types as well, if I recall correctly. Loads of useful data here.
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  2. #32
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.
    I really like cats and food.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by decrescendo View Post
    What do you mean by the bolded?
    I am referring to the fact that the coping mechanism of the 9 is to identify with the external world rather than the internal, because by identifying with and merging with the external world, the 9 thinks they can achieve ultimate harmony and thus, holy love. It's similar to how the 5 desires to find the ultimate truth so they can use this truth to unite with the parent. In a similar sense, the 9 thinks if they can lose themselves entirely and thus achieve what they think is holy love, they will experience actual love again.

    especially based on what LeaT said, it seems like 9s are perceived as naive, avoidant, and somewhat vacant. I don't doubt that I'm a 9, but none of these traits apply well to me or most other 9s I've encountered.
    This is true for average to unhealthy 9s. The very goal of the 9 is to achieve self-awareness, and they have been applicable to pretty much almost every 9 I've come across on the forum one way or another (not just this forum but also PerC). This is psychospiritual laziness - the refusal to introspect and accept the deeper truths in order to achieve self-awareness. I do wish to point out that my exprience/reality is shaped by my type and my interaction with type 9. Maybe your perception differs but I often find that 9s are extremely plagued by this mental haziness that they use to cover up reality, which is why 9s are also often described as idealists. You may not agree with this perception of yourself but then you might perhaps ought to ask yourself if you disagree because you are doing exactly the same thing, i.e. trying to idealize reality because you refuse to see this aspect of yourself just like almost every 9 I've come across thus far has, or do you do it because reality is exactly how you perceive it?

    And of course, a 9, especially an unhealthy 9, can be reactive like a 6. I never claimed otheriwse. But if we speak of general pathological tendencies and study type as a whole, 9s dislike and avoid conflict. This is how they withdraw by trying to create harmony and "giving up" on themselves by not asserting themselves. In contrast, a 5 withdraws in order to think over the situation and understand their feelings (I would say there's a very specific 8-strategy nature over the way the 8 withdraws) and 4s do it to instigate an emotional reaction.

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  4. #34
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.
    Nothing more fun than swinging from one to the other as a 497
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  5. #35
    philosopher wood nymph greenfairy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    9s are often detached while 4s are the opposite. 9s can be seriously apathetic while 4s can be seriously over-dramatic.
    I think I can be either, but more often detached.

    Thanks, EJCC. I shall glance over the thread for clues.

  6. #36
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    4s and 9s are similar in the sense that both types are withdrawn types but I think that's also pretty much where the similarity ends. As others mentioned, 4s are emotionally volatile, 9s emotionally stable. 4s like to revel in their sense of personal misery and really dig deep into their emotions whereas 9 try to avoid feeling anything, especially pertaining negative emotions, at all.
    Er, no.

    I'll give Abraham Lincoln as an example, pretty much universally typed as a 9w1, and a person who had clinical, recurring depression. From here: http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...ession/304247/ I highly recommend reading the whole article.


    Lincoln "told Me that he felt like Committing Suicide often," remembered Mentor Graham, a schoolteacher, and his neighbors mobilized to keep him safe. One friend recalled, "Mr Lincolns friends … were Compelled to keep watch and ward over Mr Lincoln, he being from the sudden shock somewhat temporarily deranged. We watched during storms—fogs—damp gloomy weather … for fear of an accident." Some villagers worried that he'd end up insane. After several weeks an older couple in the area took him into their home. Bowling Green, the large, merry justice of the peace, and his wife, Nancy, took care of Lincoln for a week or two. When he had improved somewhat, they let him go, but he was, Mrs. Green said, "quite melancholy for months."

    Robert L. Wilson, who was elected to the Illinois state legislature with Lincoln in 1836, found him amiable and fun-loving. But one day Lincoln told him something surprising. Lincoln said "that although he appeared to enjoy life rapturously, Still he was the victim of terrible melancholly," Wilson recalled. "He Sought company, and indulged in fun and hilarity without restraint, or Stint as to time[.] Still when by himself, he told me that he was so overcome with mental depression, that he never dare carry a knife in his pocket."

    ...For Lincoln in this winter many things were awry. Even as he faced the possibility that his political career was sunk, it seemed likely that he was inextricably bound to a woman he didn't love (Mary Todd) and that Joshua Speed was going to either move away to Kentucky or stay in Illinois and marry Matilda Edwards, the young woman whom Lincoln said he really wanted but could not even approach, because of his bond with Todd. Then came a stretch of intensely cold weather, which, Lincoln later wrote, "my experience clearly proves to be verry severe on defective nerves." Once again he began to speak openly about his misery, hopelessness, and thoughts of suicide—alarming his friends. "Lincoln went Crazy," Speed recalled. "—had to remove razors from his room—take away all Knives and other such dangerous things—&—it was terrible."

    ... On January 23 Lincoln wrote to his law partner in Washington: "I am now the most miserable man living. If what I feel were equally distributed to the whole human family, there would not be one cheerful face on the earth. Whether I shall ever be better I can not tell; I awfully forebode I shall not. To remain as I am is impossible; I must die or be better, it appears to me."



    Here's a poem, said to be written by Lincoln:

    Here, where the lonely hooting owl
    Sends forth his midnight moans,
    Fierce wolves shall o'er my carcase growl,
    Or buzzards pick my bones.

    No fellow-man shall learn my fate,
    Or where my ashes lie;
    Unless by beasts drawn round their bait,
    Or by the ravens' cry.

    Yes! I've resolved the deed to do,
    And this the place to do it:
    This heart I'll rush a dagger through
    Though I in hell should rue it!

  7. #37
    brainheart
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    I also just found this, and I like it-

    http://structuralenneagram.com/?p=37

    With their pleasant, easy-going exteriors, Nine-wing-Ones are frequently underestimated. Some conventional Enneagram writers describe them as lazy and indifferent; however, many are quite industrious and effective. At its highest intensity, this personality melds penetrating insight into what makes people and societies tick with soaring dreams as to what they may become.

    Traditional Enneagram descriptions emphasize the “deadly sin” of sloth for Nines of either wing. At various times, you may experience Nine-wing-Ones as anything from accommodating to stubborn, industrious to indolent, judgmental to accepting. It all depends on the match between their external and internal realities, and you, of course, cannot know how those match up unless they tell you, and they may well not tell you.

    When I give my own sorting test to Nine-wing-Ones, they resonate with six to eight of the conventional, single-number Enneagram types—but never with type Eight. Thus you may know them by their apparent contradictions. Whether you see it in them or not, they sense within themselves many of the characteristics of the majority of Enneagram points. Others explain this fact away by saying that Nine-wing-Ones are out of touch with themselves, but it seems to me that they are simply well-integrated.

    For example, although Nine-wing-Ones generally use detached perspective Five and may seem to be “out of body”, they do get good rapport and typically make others feel comfortable. This leads me to conclude that most of them must not be shut out of perspective Seven since Seven’s ability to enter the other’s mental or energetic space is necessary for rapport.

    Visual tip-offs to the Nine-wing-One: They often use slow hand gestures. They may nod their heads a lot. They are not necessarily agreeing with you; they are encouraging you to continue and saying, “I hear you.” They sometimes have a slouchy posture and lean against the back of the chair or, if standing, against a wall. They will also match others’ posture and gestures when they are in rapport, which is often.

    Probable examples of personality type Nine-wing-One are Barack Obama, Abraham Lincoln, Ralph Waldo Emerson, Carl Jung, Joseph Campbell, Walt Disney, Queen Elizabeth II, Henry Fonda, Jimmy Stewart, Garrison Keillor, Princess Grace of Monaco, Rose Kennedy, George Lucas, and the Dalai Lama.

    Being less influenced than most by perspective Eight’s need for interpersonal validation, Nine-wing-Ones generally don’t take things personally. This, along with their reliance on perspective Five, allows them to see all sides of an issue. Having perspective Four in their makeup, they feel separate from others. Having a perspective-One component, they feel a strong sense of purpose, even if they can’t quite articulate it.

    Finally, Nine-wing-Ones’ concerns and aspirations will be found at the intersection of reality and their ideals. If there is a good enough match, they will be content and relatively inactive. If there is not a match, then their choice of goals is apparent: they must either withdraw from that particular environment or change it. If Nine-wing-Ones have adopted a view of themselves as intellectuals, then they will set out to educate an uninformed world. If they view themselves as spiritual, then they will model holiness for a materialistic society. If they have had instilled in them a sense of their obligation to lead, then they will study, plan, and act toward that end. They unpretentiously allow themselves to be used and used up on behalf of their goals.

  8. #38
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by greenfairy View Post
    I think I can be either, but more often detached.

    Thanks, EJCC. I shall glance over the thread for clues.
    Maybe you have a strong 4 fix?
    I really like cats and food.

  9. #39
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    Lincoln? How absolutely fascinating, I wouldn't have imagined

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Maybe your perception differs but I often find that 9s are extremely plagued by this mental haziness that they use to cover up reality, which is why 9s are also often described as idealists. You may not agree with this perception of yourself but then you might perhaps ought to ask yourself if you disagree because you are doing exactly the same thing, i.e. trying to idealize reality because you refuse to see this aspect of yourself just like almost every 9 I've come across thus far has, or do you do it because reality is exactly how you perceive it?
    Depends on what's meant by idealism. There's "the cherishing or pursuit of principles, purposes, goals, etc." definition and then there's "the tendency to represent/perceive things in an ideal form, or as they might or should be rather than as they are." I identify with the first. One of my most strongly held "principles" is to avoid the second definition. I've honestly never struggled much with it. I'm incredibly more afraid of interpreting the world incorrectly than of discovering the world to be less than ideal.

    I would think that a lot of other 9s relate to this definition of idealism, too, rather than to the covering up of reality. Like you said, that only happens when a 9 over-focuses on the external world and doesn't devote enough energy to reflection.

    It's interesting that you brought up the concept of internal/external in relation to 9s. Like you said, 9s seek a balance / merging of the two. So I would say that unhealthy nines can go one of two ways: unhealthy focus on external -> weak intrapersonal skills (sense of self, introspection, reflection, etc.); unhealthy focus on internal -> lack of engagement with the world. Would you agree with that?

    And of course, a 9, especially an unhealthy 9, can be reactive like a 6. I never claimed otheriwse. But if we speak of general pathological tendencies and study type as a whole, 9s dislike and avoid conflict. This is how they withdraw by trying to create harmony and "giving up" on themselves by not asserting themselves. In contrast, a 5 withdraws in order to think over the situation and understand their feelings (I would say there's a very specific 8-strategy nature over the way the 8 withdraws) and 4s do it to instigate an emotional reaction.
    Yep, most of what you've written is fair enough if we're talking about general tendencies. I just want to reiterate that 9's detachment as a defense mechanism is not always cognitive (i.e. mental haziness). A lot of the time it's just emotional.

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