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  1. #101
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @uumlau, I think that's a decent way of comparing the two, especially in terms of dichotomies. I also second and no offense to 9s but, in contrast to 5, their thinking is quite simple. It's not simple in the way the 8 is simple, but simple because 9s tend to take a lot of logical shortcuts to arrive at their solution. The example about world peace is a good one and I can definitely see a 9 say such a thing. While I know that the term to describe the 9 mentality is psychospiritual, I tend to refer to this kind of thinking as intellectual laziness. 9s have this haziness to their thinking that makes it hard if not impossible for them to penetrate something to a deeper level. It's like they only look at the surface and think that's all there is to thinking but they do not concern themselves with truly and fully understanding how something genuinely operates. This is something I contrast as a head type find incredibly frustrating when it comes to discussions with 9s because while I keep pointing out to them how to delve deeper, they fail to see this and tend to often a bit too easily fall back on their blase perception.

    For example, I find that many 9s in typology tend to too easily look at superficial traits and behaviors instead of understanding what drives and motivates said behaviors. Yeah, sorry, I just got a big axe to pick with 9s lately... I don't inherently dislike or hate all 9s, but they tend to frustrate me a lot when it comes to theory.

    And I do want to stress that the above does not make a 9 stupid or unintellectual... It's just so frustrating for me as a 5 to engage a 9 in debate for this reason, probably even more so because I'm a sexual 5 and I love my ideas and to discuss them in depth and 9s just tend to be unable to offer me the satisfaction I seek in terms of sexual energy because they can't go deep enough and even if this occurs with a sexual 9, I think there's a lot of repelling going on because the sexual 9 wants to merge with me as a person (if I actually understand the sxual 9 subtype correctly, almost kind of in an Fe-way) but I'm more married to my ideas. The sexual focus is just so very, very different.
    For someone so intent upon finding deeper levels of understanding, your understanding of 9s appears to be simplistic. There's really one overriding feature of a 9: a desire to avoid conflict (avoid problems). The key thing you appear to be running into is that your complexification of a topic, while interesting to you, appears to be totally pointless to them. It feels like a creation of problems, because if you're doing what 5s do well, that's exactly what you're doing: solving any problem leads to finding more problems to solve.

    To put things in perspective, I'm a 9 and I happen to have a Ph.D. in plasma astrophysics (not terribly useful in real life, but it was fun to pursue at the time). Most 5s would have a hard time demonstrating that I don't understand what I'm talking about in that area of mastery, including all of the complexities. The difference that I have from 5 physicists, though, is that I know how to explain all of this stuff to people who would never have the time to understand the math, at a level that conveys fundamental understanding. Being able to take a complex topic and simplify it is essential to communication, and it's a skill that most 5s (and most INTPs, who are very frequently 5s) tend to lack. The 5s will try to explain every excruciating detail, because each detail is so essential and important to understanding the whole, and without which one's understanding would be incomplete.

    Note that most people will have incomplete understandings, and that detailed approach is often insufficient to convey anything resembling expertise with the idea. As an example, when I taught, I ran into plenty of students who could manipulate trigonometric calculus expressions with ease ... but all I had to do was label the TOP angle of the inclined plane problem instead of the typical way at the bottom of the ramp to demonstrate that they didn't have a clue what sin(theta) or cos(theta) meant - they understood complex recipes without understanding the underlying principles of trigonometry. (Not that I'd purposefully humiliate them ... this evidence was gathered from answers to homework problems.) It made me doubt their understanding of why Newton invented calculus in the first place, what calculus is for.

    Just as 9s shouldn't equate an understanding of a simplified explanation with full understanding, 5s shouldn't equate an understanding of complexity with a true understanding of the topic as a whole.
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  2. #102
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    For someone so intent upon finding deeper levels of understanding, your understanding of 9s appears to be simplistic. There's really one overriding feature of a 9: a desire to avoid conflict (avoid problems). The key thing you appear to be running into is that your complexification of a topic, while interesting to you, appears to be totally pointless to them. It feels like a creation of problems, because if you're doing what 5s do well, that's exactly what you're doing: solving any problem leads to finding more problems to solve.

    To put things in perspective, I'm a 9 and I happen to have a Ph.D. in plasma astrophysics (not terribly useful in real life, but it was fun to pursue at the time). Most 5s would have a hard time demonstrating that I don't understand what I'm talking about in that area of mastery, including all of the complexities. The difference that I have from 5 physicists, though, is that I know how to explain all of this stuff to people who would never have the time to understand the math, at a level that conveys fundamental understanding. Being able to take a complex topic and simplify it is essential to communication, and it's a skill that most 5s (and most INTPs, who are very frequently 5s) tend to lack. The 5s will try to explain every excruciating detail, because each detail is so essential and important to understanding the whole, and without which one's understanding would be incomplete.

    Note that most people will have incomplete understandings, and that detailed approach is often insufficient to convey anything resembling expertise with the idea. As an example, when I taught, I ran into plenty of students who could manipulate trigonometric calculus expressions with ease ... but all I had to do was label the TOP angle of the inclined plane problem instead of the typical way at the bottom of the ramp to demonstrate that they didn't have a clue what sin(theta) or cos(theta) meant - they understood complex recipes without understanding the underlying principles of trigonometry. (Not that I'd purposefully humiliate them ... this evidence was gathered from answers to homework problems.) It made me doubt their understanding of why Newton invented calculus in the first place, what calculus is for.

    Just as 9s shouldn't equate an understanding of a simplified explanation with full understanding, 5s shouldn't equate an understanding of complexity with a true understanding of the topic as a whole.
    I agree, I understand 9s poorly although I should add, that very post hardly highlighted what I do understand about 9 as a type. The concept of holy love is in particular something I have difficulties grasping but I'm working on it. I obviously have the best knowledge and understanding of 5 to a degree 4. I am stating what I know based on the observations I've made of the few 9s who are most likely 9s on PersC. I will not hold true across the board. I do however find that average to unhealthy 9s tend to kind of fall in this area. You impressed me with the plasma astrophysics stuff though, I give you that, considering that it is hard to impress me. So again, I am not saying 9s can't be intelligent or intellectual, it's just that many 9s often have difficulties with regards to type to dig deeper in the theory based on what I've observed.

    On the other hand, you're an INTJ, I think there's a great disrepancy there too. In general the people I am thinking of are feelers, most of them SFs. Also, I may be an MBTI INTP but I blame that more on my enneagram making me seem as such. I think my thinking lies closer to INFP. (Get to know me better, you'll understand why I think this way and why everyone who is familiar with the type systems think this way about me and simply agree with this conclusion.)

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  3. #103
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    I agree, I understand 9s poorly. The concept of holy love is in particular something I have difficulties grasping but I'm working on it. I obviously have the best knowledge and understanding of 5 to a degree 4. I am stating what I know based on the observations I've made of the few 9s who are most likely 9s on the forum. Naw, you impressed me with the plasma astrophysics stuff though, I give you that, considering that it is hard to impress me.

    On the other hand, you're an INTJ, I think there's a great disrepancy there too. In general the people I am thinking of are feelers, most of them SFs. Also, I may be an MBTI INTP but I blame that more on my enneagram making me seem as such. I think my thinking lies closer to INFP. (Get to know me better, you'll understand why I think this way and why everyone who is familiar with the type systems think this way about me and simply agree with this conclusion.)
    INFPs and ISFPs tend to be 9s. It would definitely be interesting to observe you as an INFP 5 - heck it might explain your aversion to type 9s to a degree. I similarly feel an aversion to type 5 and 8 INTJs, who seem determined to follow through on emphasizing the INTJ's worst traits, and I know some fairly serious ENFPs who similarly resent the "cute and fluffy" ENFPs that are more commonly encountered. There's something about seeing others who exemplify the flaws that one seeks to correct in oneself that intensifies a certain revulsion within oneself.

    And I definitely don't discount the possibility of you're being a type 5 INFP. One of my favorite INFPs in the world has a Ph.D. in computer science, and maintains computer models of car engines for a living. Just because one views the world with an Fi perspective doesn't imply that one cannot have a precise understanding of technology or other kinds of logical reasoning.

    I tend to differentiate Fi from Ti on the basis of Fi being "analog" where Ti is "digital." The "analog" perspective is more suited toward understanding feelings and understanding humans in general, and Ti is certainly more suited to understanding most technology and logic, but that's just tendencies. Technology prior to the transistor was largely analog, not digital.
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  4. #104
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INFPs and ISFPs tend to be 9s. It would definitely be interesting to observe you as an INFP 5 - heck it might explain your aversion to type 9s to a degree. I similarly feel an aversion to type 5 and 8 INTJs, who seem determined to follow through on emphasizing the INTJ's worst traits, and I know some fairly serious ENFPs who similarly resent the "cute and fluffy" ENFPs that are more commonly encountered. There's something about seeing others who exemplify the flaws that one seeks to correct in oneself that intensifies a certain revulsion within oneself.
    Based on personal conjecture on guessing people's types, what I've seen when it comes to 9s are INTPs, INFPs, ISFPs, ISFJs and INFJs. Interesting, so you dislike 5 and 8 INTJs? I can't say I've noticed a tendency with MBTI AND enneagram thus far with the people I like/dislike, but I do have a great propensity towards disliking unhealthy combinations of CP6 + 1 and Se types. They just entirely rub me the wrong way no matter how I toss and turn it. I just can't deal with those people. Most of all though, socionics explains it well - Se is my point of least resistance and if I'm allergic to Fe, Se drives me up the wall in an entirely different way. I can almost immediately tell nowadays if a person is an Se valuing type or not in socionics and thus also MBTI because I think you can translate sociotype over to MBTI but not vice versa because I think sociotype is often correct at finding a person's Jungian type, because Se valuing types have a specific way they come across, particularly if they fall in the beta quadra so Se-Ni and Fe-Ti. And deltas and betas hate each other because we're each other's superego types. I know too well after hanging out with some INFps (INFJs) and it explains why I dislike most MBTI INFJs too for exactly the same reason why I have issues with INFps.

    As for 9s, I think I have a greater issue with Fe type 9s (those types that fall on the Ti-Fe axis in general) than Fi-Te. I'm good friends with a person who is some kind of xNTJ, she hasn't fully decided on her dominant function although ENTJ is probably the most likely, and a type 9 and we get along great. In contrast, I know an INTP 9 and when he starts going with all that Fe sugar-coating I just want to slap him with something. I can't deal. It's too much.

    And I definitely don't discount the possibility of you're being a type 5 INFP. One of my favorite INFPs in the world has a Ph.D. in computer science, and maintains computer models of car engines for a living. Just because one views the world with an Fi perspective doesn't imply that one cannot have a precise understanding of technology or other kinds of logical reasoning.
    In retrospect after speaking to some people famililar with the system who's observed me (another 5 actually), he thinks I fall closer on the Fi-Te axis and he thinks my logic is much more in line with Te than Ti in actuality. Most of all though, I am very Fe-averse. Like very. I'm allergic to that function, especially in auxiliary and dominant types. I kind of agree after introspecting about it that my logic is more Te than Ti driven. Socionics explains it better though where it's very clear I'm an INFj aka MBTI INFP. In MBTI INTP is probably correct if you just go off test results and you'll find a lot of people thinking that my thinking lines up closely with Ti (I think even certified MBTI typers would have issues telling me why I'm not an INTP. DJ Arendee for example told me recently that if I am uncertain of my type then I'm an INTP for example). I think most of all it's just 5 kind of logic they are seeing though. There is a strong correlation between INTP and enneagram 5.

    I tend to differentiate Fi from Ti on the basis of Fi being "analog" where Ti is "digital." The "analog" perspective is more suited toward understanding feelings and understanding humans in general, and Ti is certainly more suited to understanding most technology and logic, but that's just tendencies. Technology prior to the transistor was largely analog, not digital.
    Hm, yes and no I guess. I mean, I am clearly interested in the humanities and social sciences and funnily enough, it is in this area where I think the grand truth of omniscience can be found. I mean, I know my T is really well-developed if we just look at functions and function developed, but I also know I got a strongly developed Fi perspective and I do wish to stress Fi, not Fe. Again, I reject Fe hardcore out of my psyche. It's one of the reasons why inferior Fe kind of makes since in MBTI but I do think again, inferior Te could explain it better.

    Most of all though, I think I've arrived at the conclusion that my dominant function as Ji is not fully differentiated. It's more Ji with a preference towards Fi-Te, which is why I just prefer to type myself as a Ji dom or INxP. It expresses how I cognitively work pretty well. Most people who are familiar with the MBTI system would probably not think of me as an INFP though. I don't quite think INFP as a label fits either to be honest even though I identify more with Fi dominance than Ti dominance. Yes, I do have a strong 4 wing but that overlap isn't sufficient for me to identify with the INFP profile. Also, I'm as anti-people-pleasing as they come. I've had a lot of people tell me recently on PerC that I sound arrogant in my posts because I tend to make the things I write sound like they're in absolutes and I can be rather uncompromising with my positions.

    I do however think that it's a good example of Te in a more unconscious position and the people who complain are definitely Fe valuing types in socionics (they just be Te hatin' ;(). Yeah, socionics just makes so much more sense than the MBTI when it comes to my Jungian type. I think Jung would probably say I'm an Fi dom with a preference towards intuition though.

    LOL, I'm sorry in retrospect if I just did theory vomit on you given the previous discussion we had about the differences between 5 and 9 think XD It's just that I haven't been able to have a good theoretical discussion all day. My sx is like superstarved. I even started to pick random arguments with people on PersC before just to have something to discuss >.<
    Last edited by Entropic; 03-13-2013 at 10:28 PM. Reason: coming up with more ideas, damn

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  5. #105
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    Also, I'm as anti-people-pleasing as they come. I've had a lot of people tell me recently on PerC that I sound arrogant in my posts because I tend to make the things I write sound like they're in absolutes and I can be rather uncompromising with my positions.
    INFPs are very prickly, and can be very dark and unconsciously emphasize that inferior Te in a remarkably harsh way. It's actually a useful way to distinguish ENFPs from INFPs - the ENFPs with strong Te will be awkward, but oriented towards accomplishing tasks, while INFPs that emphasize that unconscious Te go for the jugular (this is specifically the unconscious version, not the conscious). A lot of the dark, self-destructive "goth" culture has a very Fi vibe about it - it's just the dark version of Fi. I'm not saying you're that variety, just saying that Fi does NOT equal "cute and cuddley". It's the ExFP version of Fi that is all receptive and cuddley, due to the dominant perceiving function in play. Dominant judgers only seem to accommodate others, if at all - mostly they decide it's not worth the bother to confront. They are, by and large, uncompromising. (The difference is that the wise ones have a much better idea of which ideals ought not to be compromised - younger IxxPs are often uncompromising about stupid stuff.) When they do decide to confront, it comes out from the inferior extroverted judging. INFPs can be remarkably ferocious (Te), and it's actually kind of amusing to watch INTPs get all morally superior on you, claiming that you "obviously don't really care" because you don't happen to agree with their moral vision (Si/Fe), which also, of course, happens to be the epitome of reason (Ti), and thus your disagreement also means, ipso facto that your disagreement can only be evidence your intrinsic irrationality.

    Yeah, your reaction to Fe types strongly suggests Fi in your personality.
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  6. #106
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    INFPs are very prickly, and can be very dark and unconsciously emphasize that inferior Te in a remarkably harsh way. It's actually a useful way to distinguish ENFPs from INFPs - the ENFPs with strong Te will be awkward, but oriented towards accomplishing tasks, while INFPs that emphasize that unconscious Te go for the jugular (this is specifically the unconscious version, not the conscious). A lot of the dark, self-destructive "goth" culture has a very Fi vibe about it - it's just the dark version of Fi. I'm not saying you're that variety, just saying that Fi does NOT equal "cute and cuddley". It's the ExFP version of Fi that is all receptive and cuddley, due to the dominant perceiving function in play. Dominant judgers only seem to accommodate others, if at all - mostly they decide it's not worth the bother to confront. They are, by and large, uncompromising. (The difference is that the wise ones have a much better idea of which ideals ought not to be compromised - younger IxxPs are often uncompromising about stupid stuff.) When they do decide to confront, it comes out from the inferior extroverted judging. INFPs can be remarkably ferocious (Te), and it's actually kind of amusing to watch INTPs get all morally superior on you, claiming that you "obviously don't really care" because you don't happen to agree with their moral vision (Si/Fe), which also, of course, happens to be the epitome of reason (Ti), and thus your disagreement also means, ipso facto that your disagreement can only be evidence your intrinsic irrationality.

    Yeah, your reaction to Fe types strongly suggests Fi in your personality.
    lol yes, Dark Fi, tell me about. My Fi variety is more 5w4 variety More nihilistic, apathetic and melancholic than right-out self-destructive in a 4 kind of way. Think H. R. Giger or Nine Inch Nails. I could rewatch the video of Closer all day. It just keeps utterly fascinate me. I actually linked a lot of music videos in that thread in relation to how I picture certain enneagram types in music. You should check out the exhaustive 5 and 8 section I added there to get an idea of how I approach the world aesthetically. I am too lazy to repost all that again as an example. Also, there's my poetry. When Naranjo said that sexual 5s tend to express their emotions in art I think it's quite spot on and how he provides Chopin as an example of this. It was re-listening to this passage that made me rethink my instinctual stacking (I initially typed as sp/sx) and it's true that the only way I can fully express myself emotionally but still abstractly is through art. I write down my emotions on paper in poetry or occasionally fiction. It's like emotions themselves are too abstract, too complex and complicated to be conveyed in a simple physical gesture or expression, perhaps part because I don't understand them myself. I can however write it all down on paper and convey it as a mood or an atmosphere that more aptly describes how I feel. For a 5 I think I'm more in touch with my emotions than most 5s are. I've been pondering if it's the 4 influence, Fi, sexual dominance or a combination of them that makes it so. Regardless, I'm moody like a 4 to a degree and most people who initially get to know me and are familiar with the enneagram think I'm a well-integrated 4.

    And yes I agree, Fi is not all receptive and cuddly or even people-pleasing. I think I should blame Keirsey for that, putting all NFs into the same category but overall slant it with an Fe vibe and very biased towards some kind of 2-6-9 combination my opinion. Jung wrote in contrast that Fi types could be the coldest types out of all the types due to inferior Te as you say, can be very harsh and to the point. I notice a lot when I get logically caught up when I write in response to a type me questionnaire for example. When I think I have a good idea of that person's type I can be very uncompromising and quite harsh in how I convince them, almost like I'm forcing them to believe.

    Ugh, inferior Fe projection and moralizing. I just really dislike how they tell me how I should be, like they just want me to conform to this external social standard that I don't even care or value. I know who I am and why. If you don't like the way I come across I rather just not be with you anyway. If you are going to nitpick on my (lack of) social etiquette, I don't see the point being around each other. Respect comes from accepting each other's differences in my opinion. Accept me for who I am instead of what you think I should be. Like my grandmother often tells me (she doesn't suggest, she manipulates) that I should call my other grandmother. It's something in the lines of "maybe you should call her so she feels better". My grandmother is an ESFJ. Like I don't give a fuck ok if my call makes my other grandmother feel better. I call when I feel like calling people because I genuinely want to talk to them. Otherwise, then no.

    Also, if I am going to be crass, I don't care much about my family or my relatives in general. They're just that, bound by blood but I don't put much stock in that. I have no real emotional ties to any of them. I care about my father and my two maternal cousins, perhaps a degree their mother (my aunt) but that's it. The rest, I am not sure I really got emotional ties to care if they live or die. And some people think I fucking glorify my type. I fail to see what I wrote just now is such a fucking amazing thing when it comes to 5 apathy. I mean, deep down I guess I would be capable of genuinely caring about most people than myself... but I ultimately and utterly don't. Caring, it takes too much investment and you get too hurt when you lose it. The person must simply really be worth the time and effort for me to care.

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  7. #107
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    For example, I find that many 9s in typology tend to too easily look at superficial traits and behaviors instead of understanding what drives and motivates said behaviors. Yeah, sorry, I just got a big axe to pick with 9s lately... I don't inherently dislike or hate all 9s, but they tend to frustrate me a lot when it comes to theory.

    And I do want to stress that the above does not make a 9 stupid or unintellectual... It's just so frustrating for me as a 5 to engage a 9 in debate for this reason, probably even more so because I'm a sexual 5 and I love my ideas and to discuss them in depth and 9s just tend to be unable to offer me the satisfaction I seek in terms of sexual energy because they can't go deep enough and even if this occurs with a sexual 9, I think there's a lot of repelling going on because the sexual 9 wants to merge with me as a person (if I actually understand the sxual 9 subtype correctly, almost kind of in an Fe-way) but I'm more married to my ideas. The sexual focus is just so very, very different.
    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    On the other hand, you're an INTJ, I think there's a great disrepancy there too. In general the people I am thinking of are feelers, most of them SFs. Also, I may be an MBTI INTP but I blame that more on my enneagram making me seem as such. I think my thinking lies closer to INFP. (Get to know me better, you'll understand why I think this way and why everyone who is familiar with the type systems think this way about me and simply agree with this conclusion.)
    You definitely have strong Ne

    One thing to consider with the SF 9 is that they may point out obvious and simple observations and conclusions. Things do not always need to be so complicated as we make them. There is value in that perspective.

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  8. #108
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    You definitely have strong Ne

    One thing to consider with the SF 9 is that they may point out obvious and simple observations and conclusions. Things do not always need to be so complicated as we make them. There is value in that perspective.

    CP6
    Yes, yes, just hard for me to accept when I wish to engage in discussion. They just seem to be like platitudes and it frustrates me.

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  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    @uumlau, I think that's a decent way of comparing the two, especially in terms of dichotomies. I also second and no offense to 9s but, in contrast to 5, their thinking is quite simple. It's not simple in the way the 8 is simple, but simple because 9s tend to take a lot of logical shortcuts to arrive at their solution. The example about world peace is a good one and I can definitely see a 9 say such a thing. While I know that the term to describe the 9 mentality is psychospiritual, I tend to refer to this kind of thinking as intellectual laziness. 9s have this haziness to their thinking that makes it hard if not impossible for them to penetrate something to a deeper level. It's like they only look at the surface and think that's all there is to thinking but they do not concern themselves with truly and fully understanding how something genuinely operates. This is something I contrast as a head type find incredibly frustrating when it comes to discussions with 9s because while I keep pointing out to them how to delve deeper, they fail to see this and tend to often a bit too easily fall back on their blase perception.

    For example, I find that many 9s in typology tend to too easily look at superficial traits and behaviors instead of understanding what drives and motivates said behaviors. Yeah, sorry, I just got a big axe to pick with 9s lately... I don't inherently dislike or hate all 9s, but they tend to frustrate me a lot when it comes to theory.

    And I do want to stress that the above does not make a 9 stupid or unintellectual... It's just so frustrating for me as a 5 to engage a 9 in debate for this reason, probably even more so because I'm a sexual 5 and I love my ideas and to discuss them in depth and 9s just tend to be unable to offer me the satisfaction I seek in terms of sexual energy because they can't go deep enough and even if this occurs with a sexual 9, I think there's a lot of repelling going on because the sexual 9 wants to merge with me as a person (if I actually understand the sxual 9 subtype correctly, almost kind of in an Fe-way) but I'm more married to my ideas. The sexual focus is just so very, very different.
    *scoffs and death glares*

    Intellectually lazy, I am not. My thinking is not anything close to "simple," it's just that some of us just can't be arsed to focus on the details or have a hard time explaining things without being overly concise or long winded. And the bit about not trying to find the depth in something is more of a cognitive issue or coming across people on forums who happen to be 9s with a poor understanding of theory than an actual type 9 issue. There are some 9s with a great depth of understanding when it comes to theory.

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  10. #110
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Faceless Beauty View Post
    *scoffs and death glares*

    Intellectually lazy, I am not. My thinking is not anything close to "simple," it's just that some of us just can't be arsed to focus on the details or have a hard time explaining things without being overly concise or long winded. And the bit about not trying to find the depth in something is more of a cognitive issue or coming across people on forums who happen to be 9s with a poor understanding of theory than an actual type 9 issue. There are some 9s with a great depth of understanding when it comes to theory.


    I was waiting for the day you and I would meet.

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