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  1. #11
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Still not convinced the wings are worth anyone's time, tbh. You can't explain everything about a person using the enneagram, so stick to what it does well - clearly and concisely.

    What the enneagram types are trying to point at are fundamental world views - they're spectacularly simple & utterly encompassing, on a level that can be tough to appreciate at first - which is where I think the wings and the tritypes etc. come from. They just don't add anything beyond another layer of needless complexity that gets away from the actual workings of things.

    My opinion. :P
    I'm 'against' overcomplicating systems which are already describe with high imprecision as well. The error rates rise faster than the precision augments. Usually there's a sweet spot inherent to each system. I think the enneagram wings work correctly enough for some people but are not necessary for the system itself to be descriptive.
    Expression of the post modern paradox : "For the love of god, religions are so full of shit"

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  2. #12
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    9s are weird because they take the 8s and the 1s energies and mash them together, making a very repressed person. The wing isn't really a literal manifestation unless the 9 has gone through some self improvement, and has learned to not really repress themselves. 1s repress objective reality and make it fit their subjective views, while 8s repress their internal reality and act out and control in order to make reality bow to their subjective, unconscious needs. With 9s these desires are hidden beneath them, they both want objective reality to fit their internal views, AND passively act out in order to enforce this. 1s are far more conscious of these internal desires, the sense of order, but 9s have this and aren't usually aware of it.

    Point I'm getting to, is that a 9w1 will repress outer reality more, and 9w8s will repress themselves more. Both types of 9 are passive aggressive to keep this agenda, but I think that 9w1s will deny and ignore things going on in reality, while 9w8s will deny and ignore things going on with themselves. 9w8s act out their own values and principals without even really thinking about it, it's not about controlling themselves, it's about controlling reality. 9w1s overtly think about their values moreso than 9w8, yet it still seems unconscious somehow. They don't take actual action most of the time to change things unless things get bad, they more so use their attitude and passive aggression to shape how things work in reality without them actually doing anything.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  3. #13
    Nips away your dignity Fluffywolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    9s are weird because they take the 8s and the 1s energies and mash them together, making a very repressed person. The wing isn't really a literal manifestation unless the 9 has gone through some self improvement, and has learned to not really repress themselves. 1s repress objective reality and make it fit their subjective views, while 8s repress their internal reality and act out and control in order to make reality bow to their subjective, unconscious needs. With 9s these desires are hidden beneath them, they both want objective reality to fit their internal views, AND passively act out in order to enforce this. 1s are far more conscious of these internal desires, the sense of order, but 9s have this and aren't usually aware of it.

    Point I'm getting to, is that a 9w1 will repress outer reality more, and 9w8s will repress themselves more. Both types of 9 are passive aggressive to keep this agenda, but I think that 9w1s will deny and ignore things going on in reality, while 9w8s will deny and ignore things going on with themselves. 9w8s act out their own values and principals without even really thinking about it, it's not about controlling themselves, it's about controlling reality. 9w1s overtly think about their values moreso than 9w8, yet it still seems unconscious somehow. They don't take actual action most of the time to change things unless things get bad, they more so use their attitude and passive aggression to shape how things work in reality without them actually doing anything.
    As a 9w8, I find that -so true-! Realizing this has helped me a lot in my life.
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  4. #14
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    I'm glad you got something out of it, @Fluffywolf!

    The wings exist for a reason. An enneagram type is a mash up of their two neighboring types, and you will naturally have tendencies from them both, whether you know it or not. And one "side" will be more naturally dominant.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

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  5. #15
    Happy Dancer uumlau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Still not convinced the wings are worth anyone's time, tbh. You can't explain everything about a person using the enneagram, so stick to what it does well - clearly and concisely.

    What the enneagram types are trying to point at are fundamental world views - they're spectacularly simple & utterly encompassing, on a level that can be tough to appreciate at first - which is where I think the wings and the tritypes etc. come from. They just don't add anything beyond another layer of needless complexity that gets away from the actual workings of things.

    My opinion. :P
    I don't think they're "fundamental world views", though they can appear to be such. I would describe them more as "habitual responses" or "coping mechanisms" or "defense mechanisms." When one's only tool is a hammer, all of one's problems look like a nail: thus one's Enneagram type can appear to be a worldview.

    But it isn't quite a worldview. All of the standard readings indicate that everyone has aspects of all the types, but only one (or two or three, depending on sources) really resonate with an individual.

    That said, I sort of agree with Eck, here:

    Quote Originally Posted by EcK View Post
    I'm 'against' overcomplicating systems which are already describe with high imprecision as well. The error rates rise faster than the precision augments. Usually there's a sweet spot inherent to each system. I think the enneagram wings work correctly enough for some people but are not necessary for the system itself to be descriptive.
    It's easy to "overdescribe": by using tritype and then putting wings on each tritype, one can end up with more than half of the types in the system, to the point where one might as well describe one's type by pointing out which types one is not. This excessive description makes it nigh impossible to read about one's type as a type, because it has become more like one's "fingerprint": no one else (or, statistically speaking, remarkably few people) has exactly your type.

    Once we start looking at the core aspect of each type, it's easy to see why people can identify with each one:
    1. Everyone cares about being correct to some degree. Few people make it an overarching priority.
    2. Everyone benefits from giving and receiving help, but only a few treat it as essential.
    3. Everyone cares to a degree about how successful/admirable/accomplished one appears to be, but only a few pursue such ends as a matter of course.
    4. Everyone cares about their identity to some degree, but only a few regard it as essential to their relationship to the world.
    5. Everyone would like to be truly skilled in some manner or another, but only a few are compulsive about it.
    6. Everyone worries about who is trustworthy or not, but only a few regard it of essential importance.
    7. Everyone likes new and interesting things, but only a few pursue them indefinitely.
    8. Everyone likes some degree of control over their environment, but only a few pursue such control in an ongoing basis.
    9. Everyone likes to have bad problems just pass them by, to avoid troubling issues, but only a few regard that as the best way of dealing with them.


    It's easy to identify with any of these 9 types to a degree, but there are probably a couple/three that pretty much explain most every reaction you have to the world. They're sort-of-worldviews, but while one might have primacy in an individual, the alternatives appear to be often present, and not always as wings, which makes them not-so-fundamental, and not-quite-worldviews.

    When people say they identify with many types, I suspect they're identifying with the positive aspects of each. Type 5s care about being correct (like type 1), but that doesn't make them type 1. Type 5s can seem to be very like type 8 on the home turf of their mastery, but they aren't really type 8. Type 9s can seem like type 2s, adopting a helpful posture, but they aren't being "helpful" for the same reasons as type 2s.

    One's real types are those which reveal their negative traits, their reverting to the single hammer that regards all problems as nails. Even if one has two or three "hammers", one runs into the problems typical of the type with which each "hammer" is associated should one abuse the "hammer." I know I'm a 9 because my "hammer" is to avoid those problems that I can, and do so without thinking. I know I'm not a 5 (though I have many 5 traits) because I don't obsessively try to master my skills. (I say this is in spite of my having a PhD in physics! I haven't closely followed physics since I graduated.) I know I'm not a 1 because I care about being correct in context, not all the damn time. I know I'm not an 8 because while I can be forceful in my presentations at times (INTJ-ish-ness showing), I don't show it in most aspects of my life. I know I'm not a 3 because while I might care about appearing to be competent, I do so because simply being competent isn't enough to assure others that I can get the job done.

    All of the types I list above are ones in which I scored "high" on the RHETI test. Only type 9 is my "hammer." It's not a worldview for me, personally, which I think is better described by my MBTI type; it's a habitual reaction. I avoid problems without thinking, without often having formed an opinion. It can be done wisely ("don't sweat the small stuff" is not a lesson that one needs to teach a 9), but being done without thinking results in the "average" 9 traits.

    Regarding the OP (so as not to totally derail the thread), I think it's perfectly viable to have no wing, 1 wing or 2 wings, or even resort to tritype. The real question is how do the wings fit you, if you believe they're there? I think Blackcat's post is apt, in this regard: as a 9, are you ignoring external reality (because it isn't perfect) or your internal reality (because it's too upsetting) or both or neither? It's not an easy question, because 9s are so very good at ignoring things, we are good at forgetting that there was anything to be ignored. Either way, it isn't your type that's important, but how thoroughly you answer that question for yourself.
    An argument is two people sharing their ignorance.

    A discussion is two people sharing their understanding, even when they disagree.

  6. #16
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    Still not convinced the wings are worth anyone's time, tbh. You can't explain everything about a person using the enneagram, so stick to what it does well - clearly and concisely.

    What the enneagram types are trying to point at are fundamental world views - they're spectacularly simple & utterly encompassing, on a level that can be tough to appreciate at first - which is where I think the wings and the tritypes etc. come from. They just don't add anything beyond another layer of needless complexity that gets away from the actual workings of things.

    My opinion. :P
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    I don't think they're "fundamental world views", though they can appear to be such. I would describe them more as "habitual responses" or "coping mechanisms" or "defense mechanisms." When one's only tool is a hammer, all of one's problems look like a nail: thus one's Enneagram type can appear to be a worldview.

    But it isn't quite a worldview. All of the standard readings indicate that everyone has aspects of all the types, but only one (or two or three, depending on sources) really resonate with an individual.
    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    When people say they identify with many types, I suspect they're identifying with the positive aspects of each. Type 5s care about being correct (like type 1), but that doesn't make them type 1. Type 5s can seem to be very like type 8 on the home turf of their mastery, but they aren't really type 8. Type 9s can seem like type 2s, adopting a helpful posture, but they aren't being "helpful" for the same reasons as type 2s.

    One's real types are those which reveal their negative traits, their reverting to the single hammer that regards all problems as nails. Even if one has two or three "hammers", one runs into the problems typical of the type with which each "hammer" is associated should one abuse the "hammer." I know I'm a 9 because my "hammer" is to avoid those problems that I can, and do so without thinking. I know I'm not a 5 (though I have many 5 traits) because I don't obsessively try to master my skills. (I say this is in spite of my having a PhD in physics! I haven't closely followed physics since I graduated.) I know I'm not a 1 because I care about being correct in context, not all the damn time. I know I'm not an 8 because while I can be forceful in my presentations at times (INTJ-ish-ness showing), I don't show it in most aspects of my life. I know I'm not a 3 because while I might care about appearing to be competent, I do so because simply being competent isn't enough to assure others that I can get the job done.

    All of the types I list above are ones in which I scored "high" on the RHETI test. Only type 9 is my "hammer." It's not a worldview for me, personally, which I think is better described by my MBTI type; it's a habitual reaction. I avoid problems without thinking, without often having formed an opinion. It can be done wisely ("don't sweat the small stuff" is not a lesson that one needs to teach a 9), but being done without thinking results in the "average" 9 traits.

    Regarding the OP (so as not to totally derail the thread), I think it's perfectly viable to have no wing, 1 wing or 2 wings, or even resort to tritype. The real question is how do the wings fit you, if you believe they're there? I think Blackcat's post is apt, in this regard: as a 9, are you ignoring external reality (because it isn't perfect) or your internal reality (because it's too upsetting) or both or neither? It's not an easy question, because 9s are so very good at ignoring things, we are good at forgetting that there was anything to be ignored. Either way, it isn't your type that's important, but how thoroughly you answer that question for yourself.
    Wings seem relatively unimportant to me when I look at Enneagram and how it can be effectively used. I agree with VagrantFarce. Use the Enneagram for what it is good for. I believe its best use is for self actualization. It helps you to understand yourself - how you respond and why you respond the way you do, for good or bad. There is a quote from Viktor Frankl, “The one thing you can’t take away from me is the way I choose to respond to what you do to me. The last of one’s freedoms is to choose one’s attitude in any given circumstance.” I think how we respond to our circumstances in life is an incredibly important thing. It is therefore of utmost importance to understand why we respond the way we do, how those responses help us and how those responses hurt us. Our collective experiences of those stimuli and those responses, over a life, shape who we are as people. They shape the lens through which we see and understand the world. I think, to be a 9 or a 6 or whatever, it does something to you and it is more than how your react in the moment. I think "worldview" is not a bad way to characterize it.

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  7. #17
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uumlau View Post
    Once we start looking at the core aspect of each type, it's easy to see why people can identify with each one:
    One could say however that your ability to identify with each enneagram type is simply indicative of being a 9 in the first place.

    It seems to me that most non-9's are repelled by at least half of the types (if not more) upon first examination.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
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  8. #18
    likes this gromit's Avatar
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    I am type 9 and relate somewhat to both wings.
    Your kisses, sweeter than honey. But guess what, so is my money.

  9. #19
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    Wings are nuances that help in describing some people in further detail but don't do any good for some others. Those who fit a wing are going to 'believe' more in the wing system (and perhaps its global applicability) than those who don't. Whatever floats one's own boat, because, as Mr. @highlander says, it's best used on a personal level anyway!



    Personally, I'd be incompletely described without a pretty strong wing factored in (whether 3w4 or 6w5). I'm not going to extrapolate from there and say that "therefore, everyone must use wing," though, because of the thing that I just said above

  10. #20
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    I've thought about many times what if someone's tri-type was solid all across each of their 3 types with no wings at all.

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