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  1. #31
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    knowing how your view of reality is distorted, how you are a delusional mutha fucka, and how these delusions effect your decision making and thought processes in the most ridiculous ways
    that's tough right? ughh i think 7's might have the hardest time hearing it..
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  2. #32
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    that's tough right? ughh i think 7's might have the hardest time hearing it..
    Everyone has a hard time hearing it. For example, I've just recently realized that I'm a 6, which was hard because I'd spent so much time convincing myself that I am not like the descriptions. The very fear of being fearful and desiring security led to the distorted perception of the type description. That's also very 6-like - being afraid of fear itself.

  3. #33
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
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    I don't know if they do... But maybe
    My boyfriend seemed to think it was just hard for me because of me being a 7.
    He's a 4 and doesn't expect everything to be all lovely all the time so it wasn't hard for him to hear.
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  4. #34
    Dreaming the life onemoretime's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    I don't know if they do... But maybe
    My boyfriend seemed to think it was just hard for me because of me being a 7.
    He's a 4 and doesn't expect everything to be all lovely all the time so it wasn't hard for him to hear.
    True, but the temptation there may be to fetishize those distortions in perspective, treating them as inherent to who he truly is as a perfectly unique person, instead of as an imbalance or an aberration in conceiving the world that inhibits the experience and expression of the true self. If the difficult aspect for a 7, as I understand it, is in realizing that you'll never find what you're looking for, no matter how or what you try, the difficulty for a 4 is in realizing that definitions are limiting by nature, and how you define yourself obscures the fullness of who you are.

  5. #35
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    Maybe in part. I don't know if 6 NFs always tend to be more like SJs but I think it applies in my case. I look more down-to-earth than some INFJs partly because I think I'm questioning my Ni-based hunches and conclusions all the time. Just because Ni says it, doesn't mean it's true...

    I think I am more of a romantic inside, and more strictly practical outside. THere is a sort of war between practicality and romanticism in me, I know that. When my Ni becomes very visible and I become more passionate and romantic in a way that others can see, it often has to do with something like my artistic interests.

    I also find a sense of community very important, even if it's just a few people who really mean a lot in my life.

    I realised I was an INFJ 6 in part because the way those types dovetail makes perfect sense for the way I am.
    Okay, thanks! I don't know if this is a tendency for 6s or NF 6s in general either, although I've never considered myself very SJ-like. I don't relate much to the descriptions or how Si works at all.

    I definitely question my Ni hunches as well--sometimes I have to remind myself that they usually are right anyway, but I still a lot of times don't listen to myself when I should have. Not that I want to become arrogant and the stereotype of Ni users, thinking that my Ni is the voice of god, but there definitely comes a point when it's too much doubt.

    I can't really relate to being practical on the outside, though

    I do sometimes become attached to structures, though. And groups. I'm normally someone who advocates being an individual and not just blending in with society or groups, and who thinks that just doing things just because everyone else does them is completely misguided. I can get fixated on this topic, actually. But as I've really looked into my past, I've realized that every now and then, I get these bizarre fixations on how we do things around here and even lash out at people who go against this. And it is fear-based. It's kind of shock to me to realize that I do this, but yeah... But that's one thing I do that may be considered SJ-like. Edit: Not that SJs normally go around 'lashing out' at people who go against norms, but they have a tendency to accept structures the way they are and be more comfortable if they stay that way.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  6. #36
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    Okay, thanks! I don't know if this is a tendency for 6s or NF 6s in general either, although I've never considered myself very SJ-like. I don't relate much to the descriptions or how Si works at all.

    I definitely question my Ni hunches as well--sometimes I have to remind myself that they usually are right anyway, but I still a lot of times don't listen to myself when I should have. Not that I want to become arrogant and the stereotype of Ni users, thinking that my Ni is the voice of god, but there definitely comes a point when it's too much doubt.

    I can't really relate to being practical on the outside, though

    I do sometimes become attached to structures, though. And groups. I'm normally someone who advocates being an individual and not just blending in with society or groups, and who thinks that just doing things just because everyone else does them is completely misguided. I can get fixated on this topic, actually. But as I've really looked into my past, I've realized that every now and then, I get these bizarre fixations on how we do things around here and even lash out at people who go against this. And it is fear-based. It's kind of shock to me to realize that I do this, but yeah... But that's one thing I do that may be considered SJ-like. Edit: Not that SJs normally go around 'lashing out' at people who go against norms, but they have a tendency to accept structures the way they are and be more comfortable if they stay that way.
    I totally agree with you that too much questioning of your Ni-based conclusions is often not good. You have to find a balance. I have been trying to teach myself to second-guess myself less, especially if it's about situations where I feel uncomfortable, and so on. (Yeah, that has really been a big lesson to learn.) I've realised in the last couple of years especially that where people are concerned, it very often turns out that my first impressions of people - not necessarily instant or in the first few minutes, but at least in the first time or two we interact somewhat - are absolutely correct. ie. if I think "well, I always thought he was an ass, but now it turns out he's a great guy!" - that is probably a big warning sign, at least. The people who I've had long-term good relationships with have almost inevitably been those who I had an immediate good impression of. If I felt the first time or two that there was something "off" about them or something making me uncomfortable, that's probably pretty accurate.

    But then, I also think people go too much by their gut feelings - at least in the case of a type like INFJ it can result in magical, I-am-never-wrong feelings. I don't relate to that and would rather avoid it.

    I guess saying I'm STRICTLY practical on the outside is an exaggeration. People do think I'm cool and logical, though - not necessarily unemotional (unless they really don't know me well at all) but I look more level-headed than I am. I certainly think it's very 6-ish to listen to someone's excited plans or ideas, and then say "well that sounds really good, but have you thought about this and this? And this could be a problem..." It's probably good in some ways but annoying too!
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  7. #37
    Senior Member SubtleFighter's Avatar
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    Going back to the original topic,

    Just based on the answers in this thread, it seems like people tend to use MBTI to understand themselves and others in a positive way, while enneagram is more used to understand yourself in a way that is focused on what things you're lacking and how you can improve. MBTI is "here is affirmation that being different from people around me doesn't mean there's something wrong with me." Enneagram is "here's how I'm screwed up in a way that's different from how others around me are screwed up."

    I also noticed that people in this thread talked about understanding others a lot more with MBTI than with enneagram. It seems that somehow MBTI is more helpful with that.
    "Courage is not the absence of fear, but rather the judgment that something else is more important than fear."--Ambrose Redmoon

    . . . metamorphosing . . .

  8. #38
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marmie Dearest View Post
    Yes. Im happy to know Im not a broken SJ or a failed NT in a society that strictly values achievement. Ive never valued the SJ form of achievement necessarily, and its interesting to know that a lot of these supposed tos come from Si, and why some people are hung up on that, and Im not damaged if I dont do these supposed tos.
    Yeah, this actually, except I wouldn’t personally attach Si (it may or may not be true, I’m just wary of attaching a function- or lack of- to every inclination I have). I think that I did always wonder why something about me felt broken though, or like there was something wrong with me for having the wrong priorities. So finding out that I’m just wired differently and that it comes with a different set of strengths- and that it’s okay if I don’t have the strengths my environment has always dictated I’m “supposed” to have- was a validating experience.

    I think finding out about enneagram has been even more helpful than mbti type. There are so many e5 inclinations that I’d actually noticed about myself before finding out it was a ‘type’ or an established way of coping with stress- such as feeling a compulsive need to make sure I know everything there is to know about something before moving forward, and never really feeling prepared enough to do so. I distinctly noticed this was something I did which others didn’t do but I was completely stumped as to why or how to get rid of it (because I could always tell in retrospect when I’d ‘done it again’, but found I was completely lost when it came to recognizing whether I was doing it in the present moment…..in the moment it always feels like “this is different, I really don’t know enough to take action yet”). Learning about e5 has given me a lot of insight into this I would never have figured out on my own.

    Overall I’d (agree with SF's above post and) say mbti has helped me understand why others have such different priorities, but enneagram has helped me more in regard to working on myself.



    Quote Originally Posted by SilkRoad View Post
    But then, I also think people go too much by their gut feelings - at least in the case of a type like INFJ it can result in magical, I-am-never-wrong feelings. I don't relate to that and would rather avoid it.
    I think a key ingredient that’s often missing in this ‘should I listen to my gut’ dilemma is that it’s important to be aware (and maintain awareness) of the fact that it’s a gut feeling. There’s a helpful balance which lies somewhere between ignoring it- because it’s hard to explain/justify to others (and so I’ll avoid taking it into consideration)- and going with it but not staying aware of how it’s informing my judgment/conclusions. <-Because neither of those extremes are particularly healthy or useful. It’s hard to give a gut feeling weight while keeping in mind it’s nothing more than a gut feeling, but that’s my new goal (and it is really hard, lol).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

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  9. #39
    Senior Member Stigmata's Avatar
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    I can blame my laziness and general lack of ambition on my huge Pness.
    "I'm just here so I won't get fined."

  10. #40
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    It was like someone shone a bright light on all the hideousness parts of me that were never meant to see the light of day and said "look at all the bad habits you have son". One hell of a god-awful wake up call, but enlightening in a positive way as without understanding what created our bad habits in the first place we don't stand a high chance of changing them. Instincts were more of a gentle awareness then slap in the face with an iron fist.

    Quote Originally Posted by SubtleFighter View Post
    I also noticed that people in this thread talked about understanding others a lot more with MBTI than with enneagram. It seems that somehow MBTI is more helpful with that.
    Both can help, MBTI tells you how you process things, Enneagram focuses on the why, your motivations and fears etc. Tbh I find the Enneagram better when it comes to understanding others for that reason, MBTI does create a base however.

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