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[Traditional Enneagram] BlackCat's MBTI and Enneatype correlation chart

Mia.

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Jan 4, 2012
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Ok, so I saw this data on PersonalityCafe a few weeks ago, regarding the MBTI/enneagram types of all their members (each member apparently has the ability to pull the data on all the members as a whole regarding their "About Me" sections in their profiles [i.e., MBTI type, enneagram type, etc.]), and thought that, while their charts were pretty good, I could probably make em better (please excuse the INTJ). So, in light of the effort in this thread, I decided to go and do it, so we could compare [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]'s opinions about MBTI-Enneagram correlations against the empirical data from PersonalityCafe. Now, I remind you, this data is based on what 14,000 members put in their profiles, with about 30% leaving their enneagram type blank and 10% leaving their MBTI type blank. Obviously, some people will be unintentionally mistyped, in one or even both systems, and some people may have intentionally mistyped. But with 14,000 members, and 90% including their MBTI, and 70% including their enneagram type, I think the data is at least worth looking at. It certainly isn't perfect, but almost no study ever is, and, if we make the assumption that the 30% of people who left their enneagram types blank would have their enneagram types be distributed in roughly the same manner as the 70% who included them (and this assumption isn't too heinous), then, aside from mistypes, and the fact that people of certain MBTI type-Enneagram type combinations might have a greater or lesser propensity for joining a personality forum, the data would be clean.

So, with all that being said, here's Blackcat's data again:

MBTI-Enneagram-Correlation2.jpg


And here's their data:

MBTI-Enneagramnowing-Correlation-PersonalityCafeData3.jpg


Obviously, their data doesn't take into account wings, but we can still gather meaningful observations by comparing the two.

[will be including my observations here]

In their data ENFJs are correlated with 9<4=6<3=7<2. As Blackcat argued, ENFJ 8s are very rare (~1% in their data), but, as others argued, ENFJ 9s are more common than previously thought (~6%). Their data also predicts more ENFJ 7s than in Blackcat's opinion (BlackCat figured they'd be rare, but their data has them tied for the second most common), and fewer enneagram 1s.

In their data, ESFJs are correlated with 1<9<3=4<6<2. Their data have fewer ones, more 9s, fewer 3s, and more 4s than Blackcat's opinions would imply. These are interesting and rather significant deviations from Blackcat's opinion, moreso than for most of the other types. It should be noted that ESFJs, despite their significant makeup of the general population, are the least represented MBTI type on the forum (they only make up ~0.6% of the forum [vs __% in the general population]), so this data, which includes only ~90 ESTJs, may not be a large enough sample to create a representative distribution.

In their data, ENTJs are correlated with 1<6<3<8, which is roughly what Blackcat's opinions would imply.

In their data, ESTJs are correlated with enneagrams 8<1<6<3, which are the same four most common types as predicted by Blackcat, but there are fewer ESTJ 8s in their data than in Blackcat's opinion. Perhaps, once again, enneagram 8s (and particularly sensor 8s) just don't join personality forums as frequently? I somewhat doubt it has to do with ESTJ 8s being disproportionately in the "unknown" pile. Also, ftr, despite their significant makeup of the general population, ESTJs are one of the two least represented MBTI types on the forum (second only to ESFJs [each make up ~0.6% of the forum {vs __% and __%, respectively, in the general population}]), so this data, which includes ~90 ESTJs, may not be a large enough sample to create a representative distribution.

Very nice.

Yeah, I agree.

There definitely doesn't seem to be any consensus theory as to why people have the enneagram type they do, but the child's relationship to its parents seems to be one of the more prominent and sensible ones out there.

Yes. Personally I tend toward the notion that psychological type is the/a nature/hardwiring component, and enneagram is the result of the nurture/hardwiring component interacting with said nature/environment/dynamic component. This would explain why certain enneagrams are more common among certain types given one’s nature/leaning will affect response to the nurture component, while still allowing for variance in result due to wildly different development scenarios.

Parenthetically, I tend to lean on the side of nature/hardwiring for instinctual stackings as well, although open to conjecture on that.
 

Viridian

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IsFJ
I am still skeptical about the innateness of enneagram because I honestly think that if I had a different life experience I would probably be a 2 or 3 ENFJ now but they seem kinda foreign to me. lol

Maybe it's like a feedback loop? Your life situation --> The way you act --> Your life situation, etc.
 
G

garbage

Guest
Maybe it's like a feedback loop? Your life situation --> The way you act --> Your life situation, etc.
Hell, this makes sense to me. For a brief discussion of the causes of neuroses (which, well, is the thing that we're talking about), see also: Wikipedia.

I'd find it very hard to believe that neuroses are caused solely by 'nature' or genetics. You want to explain oddball combinations? Find oddball childhood environments--or at least environments where one's natural preferences weren't valued.
 

Hazashin

Secret Sex Freak
Joined
Apr 22, 2011
Messages
1,157
MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
6w7
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Barely any Ps are 1s (lulz) (only 3/4 IPs)
No Ts are 2s (lulz)
Barely any Is are 3s (only INTJ and ISTP [in that order])
Barely any Ts are 4s (only INTP and INTJ)
Few Es are 5s (only ENTPs)
Is are more likely to be 6w5s
Es are more likely to be 6w7s

Few Is are 7s (only SPs)
Few Is are 8s (only ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ)
Barely any Es are 9s (only EFPs [and those are rare])

6s, 9s, and 3s are the least correlated to any one MBTI type
Among enneagram 6s, extroverts are more likely to be 6w7, and introverts 6w5
Only Fs who are commonly 6w5s are INFPs and INFJs
Only Is who are commonly 6w7s are the sensors

Only Es who are commonly 6w5s are ENTP, ENTJ, and ESTJ

So does that make me a rare/uncommon case, or mistyped?

[ - Fe is giving, Fi is selfish :p]

That's not always true. Fi is driven by a set of internal values, and those values could adhere to many things deemed desirable, such as selflessness and empathy.

CP 6 ESPs also love being edgy in general to get reactions and feel some form of power for themselves [...]

Like Anakin Skywalker.

ENTJ 9- I still think the idea of an ENTJ 9 is ridiculous... The apathy, the totally passive attitude, the fact that most 9s totally avoid introspection and aren't exactly the intellectual kind.

If that's the case, then you can rule out 9 for me!
 

RaptorWizard

Permabanned
Joined
Mar 19, 2012
Messages
5,895
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sx/so
Post number 666 for me is going on the bad luck Black Cat thread! I will log out now and post no more for today just to prove it!
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Mar 20, 2009
Messages
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MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
sp/sx
I know everyone is nitpicking... but 5w4 seems pretty common for INFPs, especially the males. It seems as or slightly more common then being a 6, IMO. The PersC data Zarathustra posted shows it's as common as 9 even... I notice mistyped INFPs tend to be 9s mistyped as 4, not 6s, and when they are not truly 5s, then they're usually 4s. I think while 6 is not rare for INFPs, it's a tad overrated.

I think ENFPs being 4s is not odd at all, but 7w6s also mistype as 4s a lot too.

EDIT: Oh yeah... INFJ as 3w4s dont seem so rare as to be non-existent. I know there are at least a few INFJs around here who identify as 3w4, and I've had two in my life (and no they are not eNFJs). Since 3 is associated with Je, this is not so strange as an INFP e3.

Yes. Personally I tend toward the notion that psychological type is the/a nature/hardwiring component, and enneagram is the result of the nurture/hardwiring component interacting with said nature/environment/dynamic component. This would explain why certain enneagrams are more common among certain types given one’s nature/leaning will affect response to the nurture component, while still allowing for variance in result due to wildly different development scenarios.

I agree with this.... enneagram literature pretty much boils it down to early experience or "nurturing", and IMO, how we interpret these "messages" will have a lot to do with our cognitive preferences.
 

Southern Kross

Away with the fairies
Joined
Dec 22, 2008
Messages
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MBTI Type
INFP
Enneagram
4w5
Instinctual Variant
so/sp
Yes. Personally I tend toward the notion that psychological type is the/a nature/hardwiring component, and enneagram is the result of the nurture/hardwiring component interacting with said nature/environment/dynamic component. This would explain why certain enneagrams are more common among certain types given one’s nature/leaning will affect response to the nurture component, while still allowing for variance in result due to wildly different development scenarios.

Parenthetically, I tend to lean on the side of nature/hardwiring for instinctual stackings as well, although open to conjecture on that.
Yes (although I imagine you got your nature and nurture around the wrong way - but I know what you mean). This is what I was trying to say earlier.; your MBTI limits the scope of possible Enneagram responses to your environment.

For example, an INFP growing up a 8-like environment, all about dominance, conflict and aggression, would probably end up a 9 (or a 5 or 6). He/she would avoid conflict and become more deferential, rather than internalise those 8 qualities. However, some people will argue that being overly controlled as a child = desire to seize control over others as an adult. The point is, people react differently to the same environment. Why? Because their difference in temperament leads them to respond in diverging ways. So I also don't really think it's as simple as, " ______ type of environment results in _______ Enneatype". To me it's more, "______ temperament in _______ type of environment results in a) b) or c) Enneatypes".
 

Zarathustra

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I just wanted to point out that, while googling "MBTI Enneagram correlation", I ran across this site (http://tap3x.net/EMBTI/journal.html), and I can't help but laugh at how much more knowledgeable many of us on the forum seem to be about MBTI-Enneagram correlations than people who have started sites or written books about these matters. Honestly, I've been reading Riso and Hudson's stuff, and their MBTI-Enneagram correlations are fucking laughable, pretty much everyone in this thread that has read him seems to agree that Naranjo's correlations are terrible, and the site I linked to above is just ridiculous.

That site is pretty old (started in 1998, I think, and doesn't seem to have been updated since 2005), so, in some ways, it's interesting to see how much our knowledge about this stuff has progressed (Riso and Hudson's latest version of 'Personality Types' was written in 1997, and Naranjo's 'Character and Neurosis' was 1993, I believe, so, while I'm not saying they've necessarily gotten any wiser about this stuff, we at least now have the benefit of 15-20 years of thinking to make things clearer for ourselves).
 
Last edited:

acronach

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MBTI Type
INTP
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5
Instinctual Variant
sx/sp
Sorry to necro, but I think this should be stickied. I'm probably gonna use the chart itself more and I don't want to look through pages of threads to find it.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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Enneagram
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sx/sp
Sorry to necro, but I think this should be stickied. I'm probably gonna use the chart itself more and I don't want to look through pages of threads to find it.


If you send someone a reputation comment (you can 'rep' this post by clicking on the little star icon under my avatar/username and leaving a comment in the pop-up box) then you'll be able to find threads you like easily, because there's list of reputation comments you've given others on the bottom of your "user cp" page with links to the post it's referring to. The reputation system itself was disabled a while back, so this won't interfere with actual 'reputation points'- members only use it now to send comments to each other. And I occasionally use it to bookmark threads like this.
 

Zarathustra

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If you send someone a reputation comment (you can 'rep' this post by clicking on the little star icon under my avatar/username and leaving a comment in the pop-up box) then you'll be able to find threads you like easily, because there's list of reputation comments you've given others on the bottom of your "user cp" page with links to the post it's referring to. The reputation system itself was disabled a while back, so this won't interfere with actual 'reputation points'- members only use it now to send comments to each other. And I occasionally use it to bookmark threads like this.

You must not give out very many reps.

The alternate, better solution, would be to just bookmark the thread.
 

Z Buck McFate

Pepperidge Farm remembers.
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I don't like cluttering up my brower's bookmarks- and no, I don't give out many reps- so it works well for me. Point taken though, I suppose that's not a great method for anyone whose reputation comments won't be visible for long.
 

Starry

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Yeah... [MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION] I didn't know you changed the chart!!! (I haven't been here for a while...and merely wandered back in to read Z Buck's post). But yah...that other color sceme was hurting my brain so I'm happy now that I can read and understand. Anyway...forgive me if this has been mentioned before as I haven't gone through all of the posts...but are you saying that INFJs are the only MBTI...that doesn't have a 'very common' e-type? I would have thought 4...specifically 4w5...but I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.

EDIT: or someone linking me to where you have already discussed this. Thanks!
 

Zarathustra

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I don't like cluttering up my brower's bookmarks- and no, I don't give out many reps- so it works well for me. Point taken though, I suppose that's not a great method for anyone whose reputation comments won't be visible for long.

I haven't used bookmarks for a long time now -- probably over five years -- but I just started to again recently, and I decided to just make a "TypeC" folder (among several others), and put any threads I don't want to lose in there. It works rather well.

ETA: That being said, I think it does potentially deserve to be stickied. [MENTION=9310]uumlau[/MENTION] [MENTION=8888]CuriousFeeling[/MENTION] [MENTION=10251]Red Herring[/MENTION] [MENTION=10780]Patches[/MENTION] [MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION] [MENTION=9273]Vasilisa[/MENTION]
 

Zarathustra

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Starry

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Alternatum

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Mar 11, 2011
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Ixxx
Enneagram
6
mbtienneagramcorrelatio.jpg


I've seen so many terrible correlation charts, that I decided to make my own when I was totally sure. I tried to make the colors as clear as possible for differentiation.

Keep in mind that this is open to change, but I'd say in general that this is my opinion, and not much of this will change. Hope this helps you guys!

I'd be interested in why there is no correlation for E9 with any of the extraverted types, seeing as you are a fan of Naranjo and he (if I remember correctly) correlated E9 with extraversion. I actually thought this rather one-sided of him, but at the least I would have thought 9w8 would be not uncommon in ESFP and ESFJ . I suppose it depends on your personal concept of those 2 types as well, but I would have thought for example that Homer Simpson was an example of ESFP 9w8, but he is only fictional and not everyone would agree about his type (I did consider 7w6/6w7). I also know someone in real-life who strikes me as 9w8 ESFJ, but this is just my opinion of course.
 
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