[Traditional Enneagram] BlackCat's MBTI and Enneatype correlation chart

[Hazashin]

And after all Lady Gaga is a major 4.

Oh, no. You don't want Speed to come in here, do you?

Shhh, Speed will come to argue with you if you do that!

I was just about to say that!

I seriously was going to post that same exact thing, and then I read you had posted the same thing before I even got the chance to! But I wrote it anyway lol.

 

[Burger King]

Yes, however, Fours are in the image triad. The way their perception is distorted generally shows up as an over-identification with their own "uniqueness" and a simultaneous rejection of and longing for "the perfect self-representation" (see SK's post).

This word is so overrated. I feel like it's taken out of context a lot of the time. I'd say the type over-identifies with their defectiveness (sounds more accurate). Feeling unique is a defense mechanism against the shame and defectiveness. But eh...I'm just nitpicking at words and semantics now. I'll stop derailing the thread.

 

[Viridian]

This word is so overrated. I feel like it's taken out of context a lot of the time. I'd say the type over-identifies with their defectiveness (sounds more accurate). Feeling unique is a defense mechanism against the shame and defectiveness. But eh...I'm just nitpicking at words and semantics now. I'll stop derailing the thread.

That's the thing, isn't it? They're uniquely damaged - outcasts, misfits, the grass growing weakly on the shade. They take pride in fact that "no one can understand them and their deep emotions"... Is that about right?

 

[Southern Kross]

Shhh, Speed will come to argue with you if you do that!

He's free to come in here and disagree. He'd be wrong though.

Lady Gaga is the embodiment of 4w3

I consider myself special for owning up to being ordinary and boring.

You're braver than I am

Does it guarantee you'll describe your emotions just like CuriousFeeling?

Why? How does she describe her emotions?

But therein lies the twist: is someone suffering from depression, regardless of actual Enneagram, more likely to type as a 4 when down in the dumps?

I suppose. The same probably goes for creative, pretentious or self-absorbed non-4s - that is, if they don't mind looking like a pathetic, cry-baby, emo as well.

 

[skylights]

I just think it's a bad idea in general to say "never" because with ~7,000,000,000,000 people in this world and that number steadily increasing, and only 9 Enneatypes and 16 MBTI types (9*16=144, so 144 type combos per 7 bil people = on average 48,611,111,100 people per combined type), I'm inclined to think that eventually the circumstances are going to happen where we get an INFP 8, or an ESFJ 5, or an ENTJ 9. Even if there isn't one right now, maybe there will be in the future. Why would you say "never" when it's not only a statistical improbability, but it's really, for the sake of logic, not necessary? Just call it "extremely rare" and be done with it. So maybe an overly enthusiastic INFP will mistype as an 8 for a month or two because they really want to be one. Oh well. Better than the graph being false, IMO.

 

[Viridian]

You're braver than I am

Not really. I just admit to being cowardly. :/

Why? How does she describe her emotions?

Observe.

 

[Southern Kross]

Not really. I just admit to being cowardly. :/

But that in and of itself takes courage

Observe.

The link doesn't work for me

 

[Viridian]

The link doesn't work for me

Odd. Well, you could search the "What are you feeling right now?" thread for CF's posts, maybe? It's what I did...

 

[Southern Kross]

Odd. Well, you could search the "What are you feeling right now?" thread for CF's posts, maybe? It's what I did...

I had a look but I'm not entirely sure about what you were implying.

Could you explain a little further?

 

[Viridian]

I had a look but I'm not entirely sure about what you were implying.

Could you explain a little further?

Let's just say the word "flowery" comes to mind.

 

[surgerryy]

I just think it's a bad idea in general to say "never" because with ~7,000,000,000,000 people in this world and that number steadily increasing, and only 9 Enneatypes and 16 MBTI types (9*16=144, so 144 type combos per 7 bil people = on average 48,611,111,100 people per combined type)

This is beautiful. I am glad to know that there could be at least 48 million other INFP Fours out there.
My chances (in my mind, at least) of actually finding a 'soul mate' one day have greatly increased.

 

[Southern Kross]

Let's just say the word "flowery" comes to mind.

I see.

Well, perhaps I experience and reflect upon emotions in a "flowery" and complex way, but I don't tend to describe like that, because: a) I don't actually describe them much at all; or, b) if I do, I usually hold back on the flowery language so people don't point and laugh.

It can be tough to resist getting poetic sometimes, however, I find cynical, ironic, self-deprecating humour to be the best cure for this.

 

[BlackCat]

Alright, updated the chart. Now time to respond to some posts!

 

[Hazashin]

Alright, updated the chart. Now time to respond to some posts!

Just thought I'd point out that the INFP 6w7 is more common than INFP 6w5.

 

[BlackCat]

A few disagreements, besides the obvious which is that there should be no white (and if there is, it should be labeled (very rare)):

- INFP should have blue for 2w1, purple for 2w3, blue for 4w3, green for 4w5, blue for 6w5, green for 6w7, blue for 7w6, purple for 7w8, and blue for 9w8.
- ISFP should have green for 4w3, blue for 4w5, purple for 6w5, green for 6w7, blue for 7w6, purple for 7w8, blue for 8w9, and green for 9w1
- INTP should have purple for 1w9 and 1w2, green for 6w5, purple for 6w7, and purple for 9w8
- ISTP should have blue for 3w2 and 3w4, green for 5w4, blue for 6w7, green for 9w8, and purple for 9w1
- INFJ should have red for 4w5, and blue for 6w7
- INTJ should have red for 6w5, purple for 6w7, and blue for 8w7
- ISFJ should have blue for 1w9, green for 1w2, red for 2w1 and 2w3, green for 3w2, purple for 3w4, purple for 4w3 and 4w5, and blue for 6w5
- ISTJ should have green for 1w9, blue for 1w2, blue for 3w2 and 3w4, green for 5w6, red for 6w5, blue for 6w7, and blue for 8w7
- ENFP should have blue for 3w2 and 3w4, blue for 6w5, and red for 6w7
- ENTP should have green for 3w2 and 3w4, blue for 6w5, blue for 8w7, and purple for 9w8
- ESFP should have green for 3w2, blue for 3w4, purple for 6w5, and purple for 8w7 and 8w9
- ESTP should have green for 3w4, purple for 5w4 and 5w6, purple for 6w5, blue for 6w7, blue for 7w6, and green for 8w7 and 8w9
- ENFJ should have blue for 9w8 and green for 9w1
- ESFJ should have green for 1w2, blue for 1w9, blue for 3w4, purple for 4w3 and 4w5, blue for 6w5, red for 6w7, blue for 9w8, and green for 9w1
- ENTJ should have blue for 1w9 and 1w2, blue for 6w5, and purple for 6w7
- ESTJ should have blue for 1w9 and 1w2, blue for 2w3, blue for 5w6, red for 6w7, and green for 8w9

I will take these into consideration when I revamp the list again with (hopefully) easier to understand colors, but I'd like to make a few points.

First off I think that a lot of the typical "aggressive" typings like ISTJ 8w7 for example are mistyped ISTJ CP 6w7s. Lots of these "rare" introvert aggressive types are probably just mistyped counterphobic 6s. Like this for example-

Uh, I'm a 3w4 INFJ. Never say never.

A lot of introverts who claim to be 3s seem to be unhealthy CP 6s. I seriously don't encounter introverted 3s very often at all, but they aren't impossible, just stupidly rare it would seem. ISTP and INTJ seem to be along the more "common" of the introvert 3s, but other than those the others seem really absurd or impossible.

I think that people who claim to be ridiculous combinations are mistyped in MBTI or the enneagram, and haven't read enough (haven't read or understood Naranjo lol).

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION] I'm not ignoring the positive things you've said, I really appreciate what you've gotten from my list, I'm merely responding to the things you aren't 100% on.

- I like the "never" squares. Some types are simply contradictory in nature and I tend believe mistyping explains the 'exceptions'.

I totally agree. After really getting into the nitty gritty of what makes the types in both systems, having immersed myself in socionics and having typed people IRL, I can pretty safely say some natures in people are simply contradictory or just flat out impossible.

- I can't say that 4w3 would be super common for INFP - perhaps uncommon or rare?

Honestly I've met a lot of 4w3 INFPs. I think a lot of INFP 4w5s could be mistyped, since 3s and 5s can be deceptively similar when it comes to the intellectual realm. The 3 wing could push them to be more intellectual if that's the way that they felt they should be, for example. I hate generalizing type based on gender, but a lot of INFP males I meet seem to be more 4w5 than 4w3, and a lot of INFP females seem more 4w3 than 4w5. But that's more theory than anything.

- I think Si generally correlates with 2 (perhaps more with 2w1 than 2w3)

I'll have to investigate this more, I think that a lot of STJs who can seem 2ish could just be 1w2 and "the way things should be" happens to include other people. I correlate Si more with 1. 1 tendencies are very broad, yet not at the same time. They're a really varied crowd, but the way that it manifests doesn't seem so varied.

- What's with the lack of a red square for INFJs? The seem to be at least strong in 1w2 and 4w5.

INFJs to me have always seemed like the jack of all trades, master of none type when it comes to these correlations. They seem really varied, but without anything dominating any other type, hence types like 1w2 and 4w5 being equal IMO. So that's why they wouldn't receive a red square. I see the red squares as being completely dominant and more shaping people's general perceptions of the MBTI types, like type 1 ISJs, 9w8 ISPs etc. A lot of MBTI stereotypes come from the red squared correlations IMO (and yet you read INFJ descriptions, and they are so incredibly hard to describe, because of what I've pointed out!).

- Is ISFP= 9w8 a mistake? I presume you mean 9w1, although 9w8 might be common/uncommon.

No. 9w8>9w1 for ISPs. SP and type 1 is incompatible like 90% of the time, but I've met two ISTP type 1w9s in my life, I had initially typed them as ISTJs. The SP's do now, think later approach or think while doing approach just simply doesn't seem to be compatible with type 1 tendencies, but ISTPs are weird in this regard because Ti could lead them down the path of 1ness (same goes with INTPs). I think that these ISTPs repress their impulses and rationalize a lot with TiNi (integration to 7 would be a hilarious sight though), and the INTPs who are 1s get stuck in TiSi thinking and don't care as much to expand beyond their scope of reality.

A lot of ISFPs are 9w8s. 9w8s are generally really warm and talkative people, but have a bit of a blunt, earthy edge to them. When people think ISFP male, they think 9w8. When people think ISFP female, they tend to think 4w3 (hence the two red square slots). A lot of 9w8 ISFP women get mistaken for ISTPs. 9w8s often keep their 8 side hidden away if they are awakened 9s, or they are totally unaware of it and it comes out in abrupt Se outbursts, Fi outrages, or Ni/Te freakouts. A lot of 9s would hate to go all 8 on someone, even if they may think things like that, their main way of doing things makes them naturally have to either balance it or repress it, so either way they won't be a true 8 and won't really act like a true 8 (which would be kinda nuts for an ISFP).

- What conclusions do you think we should draw from the number of correlations for each type? You have some MBTI types correlating to many enneatypes and others to very few. Are some MBTI types more broad in their various manifestations (eg. ENFPs), while some more consistently, narrowly and clearly defined in their nature (eg. INTPs)?

That's what I've been trying to figure out for around 6-7 years now.

@BlackCat

Question regarding the blank spaces; are they merely correlations that are simply exceptionally rare, or do you believe that they're inherently incompatible with each other?

See above!

Me and my P dislike the option of never. Also the fact that I fit into one of them and have come across more than a few with the same type and an eerie similarity.

Too simplistic/dismissive. To be contradictory in aspects does not mean incompatible. I am a highly contradictory soul.

Plenty of mistypes do happen however.

Also see above. You're a pretty clear 6 to me, so naturally you'll be contradictory by nature.

 

[Kasper]

[MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION] except I'm not 6, my natural starting place is introspection and understanding myself, and with that I find it easier to relate to seven other enneagrams over 6. If I'm a 6 then I am exceptionally unaware of who I am.

I am 9w8 and I am ENTP. Nothing is ever finite in these matters, but I'm not 6.

So, what makes me impossible?

 

[SilkRoad]

[MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION], I don't think you and I know each other that well but do you have any thoughts on whether INFJ 6w5 (leaning toward phobic) seems like the right typing for me? (I'm pretty sure it is but would be really interested in your thoughts.)

Do you have any comments about INFJ 6s generally (and whether some INFJs are mistyping themselves with the enneagram!)

Do you have any thoughts about whether 6s (either phobic or counterphobic) tend to be "healthy" or "unhealthy" or is that not really relevant to you? I just wondered partly due to what you said about a lot of people being mistyped "unhealthy" counterphobic 6.

 

[BlackCat]

[I don't think you and I know each other that well but do you have any thoughts on whether INFJ 6w5 (leaning toward phobic) seems like the right typing for me? (I'm pretty sure it is but would be really interested in your thoughts.)

You've always stuck out to me because of your self typing, and I'd say it's 100% accurate!

Do you have any comments about INFJ 6s generally (and whether some INFJs are mistyping themselves with the enneagram!)

I think that a lot of confused type 4s could be mistyped phobic 6s, because they're both introverted and reactive. So naturally the two will relate in some way. Phobic 6s seem very concerned about people's loyalty and may openly worry about such, and that could appear to be like a type 4's emotional mopeyness.

They seem more inwardly Ni and outwardly Fe, could be mistyped as ISFJ.

Do you have any thoughts about whether 6s (either phobic or counterphobic) tend to be "healthy" or "unhealthy" or is that not really relevant to you? I just wondered partly due to what you said about a lot of people being mistyped "unhealthy" counterphobic 6.

Well I don't really think that there is an exact correlation, but it seems really hard for 6s to reach healthy levels because of their anxiety. They usually have to experience something major in their lives that forces them to change their ways... Or it would take a lot of time to get over their anxieties.

 

[SilkRoad]

You've always stuck out to me because of your self typing, and I'd say it's 100% accurate!

Yay, thanks

I think that a lot of confused type 4s could be mistyped phobic 6s, because they're both introverted and reactive. So naturally the two will relate in some way. Phobic 6s seem very concerned about people's loyalty and may openly worry about such, and that could appear to be like a type 4's emotional mopeyness.

They seem more inwardly Ni and outwardly Fe, could be mistyped as ISFJ.

Totally agree, though I've sometimes wondered if I just have a bit of a bee in my bonnet about this But it wouldn't surprise me at all. I'm sure many INFJs ARE 4s, but then again 4 almost seems to go better with ENFP/INFP/Fi types, to me. (I can think of two people I know who seem 4 to almost a stereotypical extent, and they are almost certainly xNFPs.)

Inwardly Ni/outwardly Fe sounds very much like me, and I am certainly more ISFJ-ish for an INFJ (sometimes get ISFJ test results).

Well I don't really think that there is an exact correlation, but it seems really hard for 6s to reach healthy levels because of their anxiety. They usually have to experience something major in their lives that forces them to change their ways... Or it would take a lot of time to get over their anxieties.

Yeah. I think that self-awareness is important for all types but perhaps even more so for a type like phobic 6 (or counterphobic for that matter). Self-awareness has helped enormously with managing various types of anxiety and being aware when I'm acting from fear/anxiety. Thanks for the feedback

 

[Savage Idealist]

[MENTION=5627]BlackCat[/MENTION]

Ultimately I am inclined to disagree that any sort of combination between Enneagram and JCF is necessarily impossible, even for the reasons that you have mentioned, however I have lost interest in the subject to formulate a really long argument to your thesis.