[Traditional Enneagram] BlackCat's MBTI and Enneatype correlation chart

[Southern Kross]

- 75% of the INFPs on this forum are not typed as 4s. maybe 40-60%

It's at least 60%. 6 is probably the third or forth most commonly occurring type for INFP - just take a look around. And I think if you asked the few INFP 6s here they would probably tell you they feel like more of a minority. Even the 9w1s probably feel more like the exception than the rule, in spite of being a very common amongst INFPs. Not that I want to suggest 4w5 INFPs are the superior norm and the others are just abnormal weirdos, or anything...

- yes, I do think a very large amount of people on this forum are mistyped

No, I think most people have it right. A few do have problems with self-awareness and self-insight but even then they don't tend to be way off base. And most people here have had a few years to reflect on type through interaction on the forum; this provides a sort of attrition that helps confront their inaccuracies and refine their understanding - if they are open to it, that is.

- mistyped as 4s and 5s in particular

I do agree that among the uninformed general public, over-identification with 4 could be a big problem, due to the romanticising of its qualities in contemporary society. But most people here are too sensible and knowledgeable about enneagram to be swayed by this BS; I would say the vast majority on TC that identify as 4, do so with no illusions of the crappy aspects of the type. If anything, I think you idealise it more than those 'claiming' to be 4.

 

[Elfboy]

It's at least 60%. 6 is probably the third or forth most commonly occurring type for INFP - just take a look around. And I think if you asked the few INFP 6s here they would probably tell you they feel like more of a minority. Even the 9w1s probably feel more like the except than the rule, in spite of being a very common amongst INFPs. Not that I want to suggest 4w5 is the superior norm and the others are just weird exceptions, or anything...

I don't think they would say that. the INFP 6s on personality cafe don't seem to think they're a minority. perhaps [MENTION=14663]Rim[/MENTION] can help explain better

No, I think most people have it right. A few do have problems with self-awareness and self-insight but even then they don't tend to be way off base. And most people here have had a few years to reflect on type through interaction on the forum; this provides a sort of attrition that helps confront their inaccuracies and refine their understanding - if they are open to it, that is.

self awareness is only one issue here. the other is misinformation. most people think that enneagram is about motivations and fears, when in reality it is about lenses that cloud or perception of reality. another problem is the descriptions (this is especially true of 6s, the descriptions of type 6 are extremely misleading and capture only a small subgroup of type 6). a 3rd problem is that, moreso than MBTI, Enneagram if studied properly can give quite the reality bitch slap. unlike MBTI, which focuses on cognitive functions, natural skills and unique talents, the majority of the Enneagram is centered around irrational fixations and resulting (usually negative) behavior patterns and other symptoms. Enneagram will force you to face your deepest, darkest, most embarrassing and shameful secrets, after which, one can begin the process of observing their ego objectively and gain a clearer perspective of themselves and the rest of reality (if you want a good example of this, visit some of the enneagram type me threads on personality cafe. you would not believe how emotionally charged people can get about them)

I do agree that among the uninformed general public, over-identification with 4 could be a big problem, due to the romanticising of its qualities in contemporary society. But there are plenty of people here that identify as 4 with no illusions of the crappy aspects. If anything, I think you idealise it more than most people 'claiming' to be 4.

I have in the past (like, about a year ago) but honestly, the more I learn about the type I think 4s and many of the people who mistype as 4s are rather full of themselves (this isn't aimed at you, you don't seem to be). the 4s I've met IRL (and many of the ones on forums) have been highly reactive, have a bizarre sense of bravado and frequently resort to insecurity driven put downs and guilt trips. at their worst 4s are shame ridden, neurotic, self loathing and even narcissistic. I don't say this to bitch about 4s, I could tell you similar things about less integrated people of any enneagram type.

 

[Glycerine]

I very much doubt Glycerine is a ENFJ 5.

Then what do you think I am? An introvert? 2? 3? 6? 9?
To be honest, in the end, it really doesn't matter but I am up to hear what you think.

I think people can be any combination. An INFP 8 is possible if their life circumstances forced them to adapt to their surroundings. People are not meant to fit neatly into boxes.

 

[Southern Kross]

self awareness is only one issue here. the other is misinformation. most people think that enneagram is about motivations and fears, when in reality it is about lenses that cloud or perception of reality. another problem is the descriptions (this is especially true of 6s, the descriptions of type 6 are extremely misleading and capture only a small subgroup of type 6). a 3rd problem is that, moreso than MBTI, Enneagram if studied properly can give quite the reality bitch slap. unlike MBTI, which focuses on cognitive functions, natural skills and unique talents, the majority of the Enneagram is centered around irrational fixations and resulting (usually negative) behavior patterns and other symptoms. Enneagram will force you to face your deepest, darkest, most embarrassing and shameful secrets, after which, one can begin the process of observing their ego objectively and gain a clearer perspective of themselves and the rest of reality (if you want a good example of this, visit some of the enneagram type me threads on personality cafe. you would not believe how emotionally charged people can get about them)

Absolutely. Addressing your enneatype puts you in a vulnerable position. But I think this forum allows people to discuss it with minimal judgement because people are more knowledgeable and open. I would never think to discuss it IRL with the uninitiated because it requires decent understanding to avoid people reducing it to stereotypes, judgements or insults. I think most people IRL would totally mistype themselves based on idealisation and denial; but here it's different.

4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive. However, true 4s tend to have a great deal of self-awareness, and therefore would likely be able to type themselves quite easily - I knew I was a 4 practically two sentences into the description, even with how the possible confusion of how closely I also identified with 5. Also 4s are more unflinching in facing harsh realities, especially about themselves, so they don't tend to end up in denial and recognise the negative qualities of type within themselves. And don't even get me started on the pride/shame of uniqueness in 4s which makes them advertise their type that much more. So the problem is that it's easy to misconstrue the clarity and readiness with which 4s embrace their type, with the eagerness of non-4s to wrongly identify with the type.

I have in the past (like, about a year ago) but honestly, the more I learn about the type I think 4s and many of the people who mistype as 4s are rather full of themselves (this isn't aimed at you, you don't seem to be). the 4s I've met IRL (and many of the ones on forums) have been highly reactive, have a bizarre sense of bravado and frequently resort to insecurity driven put downs and guilt trips. at their worst 4s are shame ridden, neurotic, self loathing and even narcissistic. I don't say this to bitch about 4s, I could tell you similar things about less integrated people of any enneagram type.

I don't really type people much in everyday life, so I couldn't say how other 4s behave except from how they are on TC. The part you mention of 4s at their worst doesn't bother me, but I'm confused about your usual experience of 4s. What do you mean by bravado?

I can't say I'm like that. Manipulative behaviour like that is not something I typically consider to be 4 quality. Sure with disintergration you get the average 2-style martyrdom and sulkiness, but the 4 self-protectiveness means I withhold this from everyone but those closest to me. Typically I consider my security movement to the worst qualities of 1 to be the main source of my negative behaviour to others - I become impatient, critical, nickpicky, self-righteous and immovable. Obnoxious, arrogant and irritable, yes; but cruel and manipulative, no. Also I feel too in touch with my flaws and insecurities to take them out on others. But who knows, perhaps there are plenty of 4s out there like you described

But anyway, I don't want derail the thread too much with 4-based discussion. Sorry BlackCat.

Then what do you think I am? An introvert? 2? 3? 6? 9?
To be honest, in the end, it really doesn't matter but I am up to hear what you think.

Not sure, but you certainly don't strike me as a 5.

I think people can be any combination. An INFP 8 is possible if their life circumstances forced them to adapt to their surroundings. People are not meant to fit neatly into boxes.

But you are born with your MBTI and this strongly influences how you react to certain circumstances - it forces you to follow certain patterns of thinking which constrains the possible of manifestations of type. If your possible range of reactions are limited, so can your enneatype.

 

[Glycerine]

hmmm...I thought MBTI was more nature and enneagram was more nurture. The way you word it seems like MBTI is quite deterministic. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

 

[Southern Kross]

hmmm...I thought MBTI was more nature and enneagram was more nurture. The way you word it seems like MBTI is quite deterministic. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

They are, are we are made up of both. But surely nature has a strong influence on how you respond to your circumstances, or else why would it matter much at all? MBTI would be irrelevant and meaningless if any type could be any enneatype, because it would mean we are entirely malleable and almost completely determined by our experiences.

 

[SilkRoad]

I do tend to think that a lot of INFx mistype as 4 and a lot of INTx mistype as 5 because that's what they think they are "supposed" to be. I thought when I started looking into Enneagram that I was "supposed" to be a 4 and quickly realised that I definitely was not.

I wasn't happy about my 6 identification at first but now I'm fine with it. 6 gets a lot of "negative publicity", for want of better words. I am sure that there are a lot of 6s who are mistyping, and who can blame them when you get all these dumb threads with titles like "6 is the worst type" or comments like "Phobic 6 has to be a pretty terrible type."

Mind you, I am aware that I'm a more SJ-like INFJ than some, and so I think 6 is a more likely typing for the flavour that I am. But I dunno...there's got to be something wrong with the perception when I get people saying things to me like "you can't be a 6 if you're an INFJ/you can't be an INFJ if you're a 6" or "I've never come across an INFJ claiming to be anything other than 4 before" or "your e-type/MBTI combination is extremely rare and almost unheard of."

 

[Kasper]

Me and my P dislike the option of never. Also the fact that I fit into one of them and have come across more than a few with the same type and an eerie similarity.

- I like the "never" squares. Some types are simply contradictory in nature and I tend believe mistyping explains the 'exceptions'.

Too simplistic/dismissive. To be contradictory in aspects does not mean incompatible. I am a highly contradictory soul.

Plenty of mistypes do happen however.

 

[Viridian]

4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive.

Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?

However, true 4s tend to have a great deal of self-awareness, and therefore would likely be able to type themselves quite easily - I knew I was a 4 practically two sentences into the description, even with how the possible confusion of how closely I also identified with 5. Also 4s are more unflinching in facing harsh realities, especially about themselves, so they don't tend to end up in denial and recognise the negative qualities of type within themselves. And don't even get me started on the pride/shame of uniqueness in 4s which makes them advertise their type that much more. So the problem is that it's easy to misconstrue the clarity and readiness with which 4s embrace their type, with the eagerness of non-4s to wrongly identify with the type.

Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?

 

[Elfboy]

[MENTION=5871]Southern Kross[/MENTION]

4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive.

exactly, which is why many if not most of them are mistyped

 

[brainheart]

Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?

Yeah, I'm really confused about this. I mean, I'm pretty out of the loop as far as popular culture goes, but I don't exactly see large quantities of people idealizing fours all that much. Who does that? I go out in the world and still continue to feel like a seriously out of place weirdo, just as I have my whole life. There is certainly no one romanticizing or idealizing me, ha ha. Is this some 'idea' of fours that people have, like a Twilight vampire thing, vs how fours really are? Because if so, what people consider four seems more 6 with sx in the instinct stacking to me.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

- I like the "never" squares. Some types are simply contradictory in nature and I tend believe mistyping explains the 'exceptions'.

They are, are we are made up of both. But surely nature has a strong influence on how you respond to your circumstances, or else why would it matter much at all? MBTI would be irrelevant and meaningless if any type could be any enneatype, because it would mean we are entirely malleable and almost completely determined by our experiences.

I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).

 

[Burger King]

Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?

It does apply to fours. A more appropriate term would be self-conscious or self-absorbed. Self-aware is used kind of loosely, but I think what people want to say is that the type tends to be too preoccupied with the "self," on average at least.

 

[Southern Kross]

Too simplistic/dismissive. To be contradictory in aspects does not mean incompatible. I am a highly contradictory soul.

Plenty of mistypes do happen however.

Yes, some contradictions (use of this term is now becoming complicated) are natural but only if they come from a single place, where, despite appearing to be in opposition, the two side exist in relationship with one another, inherently intertwined; because deep down, they are really about the same thing. It's like how 4s can be so arrogant, proud and disdainful, but also full of shame, insecurity and self-doubt; these come from the same place, the obsession to be unique and different, which creates a superior/inferior dichotomy.

However, some contradictions are actually incompatibilities (which is more what I meant) because they don't really exist in relationship to each other. I think this happens when there are inherent differences between your enneatype and MBTI combination. IMO contradictions can exist within a type but not between the two. This is because they aren't related, as the "struggle" doesn't come from the one place. To me, these sorts of contradictions come from mistyping.

Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?

Well, to be fair, 4-like qualities are both venerated and reviled - even 4s do this themselves. This is natural though. 4-like qualities always come into fashion when society is at its most hollow, affected, hackneyed and/or vulgar; so it has to exist in conflict with the mainstream culture to some degree. That is not to say the common representations/mimicry of 4 characteristics are accurate - in fact (to the real 4s in particularly) they typically seem to miss the point entirely. And the representations are more broad and entrenched than you realise - some examples:

Hipsters, counter-culture and anti-establishment sentiment; the self-help craze; rising interest in philosophy (particularly in young people); increased introspection and the cult of the individual; focus on authenticity of self and self-actualisation; the way everyone's getting a therapist to talk through their issues; pretentious rejection of what is deemed shallow, artificial and superficial; emphasis on expression of genuine emotion (being 'real') rather than on the polite and appropriate (but often expressed in negative ways); increased interest in artistic pursuits and accessing one's creativity; focus on distinguishing your self from the crowd and being unique; people taking pride in both their failures and successes; focus on living a life of 'meaning'; mainstream popularity of nerd-dom, indy music and other other traditional outsider groups (ie. it's cool to be 'different'); fascination with demonstrations of faux depth/insight/profundity of feeling/mystique etc (just check out the inspirational quotes and images out there)

Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?

To some degree, however your eagerness to accept an unpleasant truth can help overcome a blind spot. For me, reading some 4 descriptions for the first time felt like a knife in the heart because I thought them so harsh and shocking. But I didn't deny their truth for a second - deep down, I knew it hurt because it was an accurate depiction of myself.

I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).

Exactly.

 

[Viridian]

It does apply to fours. A more appropriate term would be self-conscious or self-absorbed. Self-aware is used kind of loosely, but I think what people want to say is that the type tends to be too preoccupied with the "self," on average at least.

Yes, however, Fours are in the image triad. The way their perception is distorted generally shows up as an over-identification with their own "uniqueness" and a simultaneous rejection of and longing for "the perfect self-representation" (see SK's post). It's paradoxal, but so are all the fixations.

...Did I get that right? I'm no Naranjo, yanno...

Well, to be fair, 4-like qualities are both venerated and reviled - even 4s do this themselves. This is natural though. 4-like qualities always come into fashion when society is at its most hollow, affected, hackneyed and/or vulgar; so it has to exist in conflict with the mainstream culture to some degree. That is not to say the common representations/mimicry of 4 characteristics are accurate - in fact (to the real 4s in particularly) they typically seem to miss the point entirely. And the representations are more broad and entrenched than you realise - some examples:

Hipsters, counter-culture and anti-establishment sentiment; the self-help craze; rising interest in philosophy (particularly in young people); increased introspection and the cult of the individual; focus on authenticity of self and self-actualisation; the way everyone's getting a therapist to talk through their issues; pretentious rejection of what is deemed shallow, artificial and superficial; emphasis on expression of genuine emotion (being 'real') rather than on the polite and appropriate (but often expressed in negative ways); increased interest in artistic pursuits and accessing one's creativity; focus on distinguishing your self from the crowd and being unique; people taking pride in both their failures and successes; focus on living a life of 'meaning'; mainstream popularity of nerd-dom, indy music and other other traditional outsider groups (ie. it's cool to be 'different'); fascination with demonstrations of faux depth/insight/profundity of feeling/mystique etc (just check out the inspirational quotes and images out there)

Quoth Life of Brian:

"Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!"
"Yes! We're all individuals!"
"You're all different!"
"Yes, we ARE all different!"
Man in crowd: "I'm not..."
Crowd: "Schhhhhh!"

To some degree, however your eagerness to accept an unpleasant truth can help overcome a blind spot. For me, reading some 4 descriptions for the first time felt like a knife in the heart because I thought them so harsh and shocking. But I didn't deny their truth for a second - deep down, I knew it hurt because it was an accurate depiction of myself.

Point taken. I'd be wary of Special Snowflake Syndrome, though.

Plus, sometimes self-absorption and self-awareness don't necessarily go hand in hand.

 

[Southern Kross]

Yes, however, Fours are in the image triad. The way their perception is distorted generally shows up as an over-identification with their own "uniqueness" and a simultaneous rejection of and longing for "the perfect self-representation" (see SK's post). It's paradoxal, but so are all the fixations.

...Did I get that right? I'm no Naranjo, yanno...

That gets a pass mark.

"Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!"
"Yes! We're all individuals!"
"You're all different!"
"Yes, we ARE all different!"
Man in crowd: "I'm not..."
Crowd: "Schhhhhh!"

Spot on

And after all Lady Gaga is a major 4.

Point taken. I'd be wary of Special Snowflake Syndrome, though.

Oh no, that syndrome doesn't apply to me either, because I genuinely am special

Plus, sometimes self-absorption and self-awareness don't necessarily go hand in hand.

So true. People often make that mistake. Introspection doesn't guarantee insight.

I didn't actually mean to say 4s are exempt from those sorts of human foibles, only that they are more inclined toward self-analysis and perhaps less prone to denial, which are two common hurdles to typing yourself accurately.

 

[Kasper]

I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).

That is a way of describing the very uncommon matches not being impossible but hard to accept that I can get behind.

My belief is MBTI is pretty much inherent, either we are born with one or it develops very early, Enneagram however is shaped by our early childhood. We don't change our MBTI but when faced with pressure at a young age we can take on an Enneagram that seems to work against natural strengths. The links between Enneagram and parenting seem to have some valid patterns imo.

 

[Kierva]

That's sad, it seems like ESTPs can't be anything other than 3,7,8.

6 doesn't count because it goes for all MBTI types.

 

[Viridian]

That gets a pass mark.

Thank you, sir!

Spot on

And after all Lady Gaga is a major 4.

Shhh, Speed will come to argue with you if you do that!

Oh no, that syndrome doesn't apply to me either, because I genuinely am special

I consider myself special for owning up to being ordinary and boring.

So true. People often make that mistake. Introspection doesn't guarantee insight.

Does it guarantee you'll describe your emotions just like CuriousFeeling?

I didn't actually mean to say 4s are exempt from those sorts of human foibles, only that they are more inclined toward self-analysis and perhaps less prone to denial, which are two common hurdles to typing yourself accurately.

But therein lies the twist: is someone suffering from depression, regardless of actual Enneagram, more likely to type as a 4 when down in the dumps?

 

[Glycerine]

My belief is MBTI is pretty much inherent, either we are born with one or it develops very early, Enneagram however is shaped by our early childhood. We don't change our MBTI but when faced with pressure at a young age we can take on an Enneagram that seems to work against natural strengths. The links between Enneagram and parenting seem to have some valid patterns imo.

+10000
in addition, I also think that the MBTI influences how the enneagram manifests in a rare combination. A 4w5 INTP is gonna appear quite different than a 4w5 ENFP superficially but they are both going to have similar core fears that drive them. Working against one's natural preferences/strengths forces one to adapt and compensate by learning new strengths. Humans are fairly predictable but also can be incredibly adaptable when the need arises.