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  1. #51
    brainheart
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?
    Yeah, I'm really confused about this. I mean, I'm pretty out of the loop as far as popular culture goes, but I don't exactly see large quantities of people idealizing fours all that much. Who does that? I go out in the world and still continue to feel like a seriously out of place weirdo, just as I have my whole life. There is certainly no one romanticizing or idealizing me, ha ha. Is this some 'idea' of fours that people have, like a Twilight vampire thing, vs how fours really are? Because if so, what people consider four seems more 6 with sx in the instinct stacking to me.

  2. #52
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - I like the "never" squares. Some types are simply contradictory in nature and I tend believe mistyping explains the 'exceptions'.
    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    They are, are we are made up of both. But surely nature has a strong influence on how you respond to your circumstances, or else why would it matter much at all? MBTI would be irrelevant and meaningless if any type could be any enneatype, because it would mean we are entirely malleable and almost completely determined by our experiences.

    I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?
    It does apply to fours. A more appropriate term would be self-conscious or self-absorbed. Self-aware is used kind of loosely, but I think what people want to say is that the type tends to be too preoccupied with the "self," on average at least.

  4. #54
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post
    Too simplistic/dismissive. To be contradictory in aspects does not mean incompatible. I am a highly contradictory soul.

    Plenty of mistypes do happen however.
    Yes, some contradictions (use of this term is now becoming complicated) are natural but only if they come from a single place, where, despite appearing to be in opposition, the two side exist in relationship with one another, inherently intertwined; because deep down, they are really about the same thing. It's like how 4s can be so arrogant, proud and disdainful, but also full of shame, insecurity and self-doubt; these come from the same place, the obsession to be unique and different, which creates a superior/inferior dichotomy.

    However, some contradictions are actually incompatibilities (which is more what I meant) because they don't really exist in relationship to each other. I think this happens when there are inherent differences between your enneatype and MBTI combination. IMO contradictions can exist within a type but not between the two. This is because they aren't related, as the "struggle" doesn't come from the one place. To me, these sorts of contradictions come from mistyping.

    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?
    Well, to be fair, 4-like qualities are both venerated and reviled - even 4s do this themselves. This is natural though. 4-like qualities always come into fashion when society is at its most hollow, affected, hackneyed and/or vulgar; so it has to exist in conflict with the mainstream culture to some degree. That is not to say the common representations/mimicry of 4 characteristics are accurate - in fact (to the real 4s in particularly) they typically seem to miss the point entirely. And the representations are more broad and entrenched than you realise - some examples:

    Hipsters, counter-culture and anti-establishment sentiment; the self-help craze; rising interest in philosophy (particularly in young people); increased introspection and the cult of the individual; focus on authenticity of self and self-actualisation; the way everyone's getting a therapist to talk through their issues; pretentious rejection of what is deemed shallow, artificial and superficial; emphasis on expression of genuine emotion (being 'real') rather than on the polite and appropriate (but often expressed in negative ways); increased interest in artistic pursuits and accessing one's creativity; focus on distinguishing your self from the crowd and being unique; people taking pride in both their failures and successes; focus on living a life of 'meaning'; mainstream popularity of nerd-dom, indy music and other other traditional outsider groups (ie. it's cool to be 'different'); fascination with demonstrations of faux depth/insight/profundity of feeling/mystique etc (just check out the inspirational quotes and images out there)

    Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?
    To some degree, however your eagerness to accept an unpleasant truth can help overcome a blind spot. For me, reading some 4 descriptions for the first time felt like a knife in the heart because I thought them so harsh and shocking. But I didn't deny their truth for a second - deep down, I knew it hurt because it was an accurate depiction of myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).
    Exactly.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #55
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    It does apply to fours. A more appropriate term would be self-conscious or self-absorbed. Self-aware is used kind of loosely, but I think what people want to say is that the type tends to be too preoccupied with the "self," on average at least.
    Yes, however, Fours are in the image triad. The way their perception is distorted generally shows up as an over-identification with their own "uniqueness" and a simultaneous rejection of and longing for "the perfect self-representation" (see SK's post). It's paradoxal, but so are all the fixations.

    ...Did I get that right? I'm no Naranjo, yanno...

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Well, to be fair, 4-like qualities are both venerated and reviled - even 4s do this themselves. This is natural though. 4-like qualities always come into fashion when society is at its most hollow, affected, hackneyed and/or vulgar; so it has to exist in conflict with the mainstream culture to some degree. That is not to say the common representations/mimicry of 4 characteristics are accurate - in fact (to the real 4s in particularly) they typically seem to miss the point entirely. And the representations are more broad and entrenched than you realise - some examples:

    Hipsters, counter-culture and anti-establishment sentiment; the self-help craze; rising interest in philosophy (particularly in young people); increased introspection and the cult of the individual; focus on authenticity of self and self-actualisation; the way everyone's getting a therapist to talk through their issues; pretentious rejection of what is deemed shallow, artificial and superficial; emphasis on expression of genuine emotion (being 'real') rather than on the polite and appropriate (but often expressed in negative ways); increased interest in artistic pursuits and accessing one's creativity; focus on distinguishing your self from the crowd and being unique; people taking pride in both their failures and successes; focus on living a life of 'meaning'; mainstream popularity of nerd-dom, indy music and other other traditional outsider groups (ie. it's cool to be 'different'); fascination with demonstrations of faux depth/insight/profundity of feeling/mystique etc (just check out the inspirational quotes and images out there)
    Quoth Life of Brian:

    "Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!"
    "Yes! We're all individuals!"
    "You're all different!"
    "Yes, we ARE all different!"
    Man in crowd: "I'm not..."
    Crowd: "Schhhhhh!"


    To some degree, however your eagerness to accept an unpleasant truth can help overcome a blind spot. For me, reading some 4 descriptions for the first time felt like a knife in the heart because I thought them so harsh and shocking. But I didn't deny their truth for a second - deep down, I knew it hurt because it was an accurate depiction of myself.
    Point taken. I'd be wary of Special Snowflake Syndrome, though.

    Plus, sometimes self-absorption and self-awareness don't necessarily go hand in hand.
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  6. #56
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Viridian View Post
    Yes, however, Fours are in the image triad. The way their perception is distorted generally shows up as an over-identification with their own "uniqueness" and a simultaneous rejection of and longing for "the perfect self-representation" (see SK's post). It's paradoxal, but so are all the fixations.

    ...Did I get that right? I'm no Naranjo, yanno...
    That gets a pass mark.

    "Look, you've got it all wrong! You don't NEED to follow ME, You don't NEED to follow ANYBODY! You've got to think for yourselves! You're ALL individuals!"
    "Yes! We're all individuals!"
    "You're all different!"
    "Yes, we ARE all different!"
    Man in crowd: "I'm not..."
    Crowd: "Schhhhhh!"
    Spot on

    And after all Lady Gaga is a major 4.

    Point taken. I'd be wary of Special Snowflake Syndrome, though.
    Oh no, that syndrome doesn't apply to me either, because I genuinely am special



    Plus, sometimes self-absorption and self-awareness don't necessarily go hand in hand.
    So true. People often make that mistake. Introspection doesn't guarantee insight.

    I didn't actually mean to say 4s are exempt from those sorts of human foibles, only that they are more inclined toward self-analysis and perhaps less prone to denial, which are two common hurdles to typing yourself accurately.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #57
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I’m torn on the ‘never’ position. I also find myself doubting someone’s claim about ennea/mbti type with certain combinations. I mean, a person would have to be pushed pretty hard in some weird way to end up with a worldview distorted in such a way that goes against their inherent strength. But I don’t want to say it can’t happen just because I can’t personally wrap my head around it. I’ll just say I have yet to get to know someone who claims to be one of the questionable combinations and to be convinced they’re correct in their assessment (…it’s not that I presume to know the person better than they know themselves, it’s more that I can’t help having doubts about things that don’t make sense to me).
    That is a way of describing the very uncommon matches not being impossible but hard to accept that I can get behind.

    My belief is MBTI is pretty much inherent, either we are born with one or it develops very early, Enneagram however is shaped by our early childhood. We don't change our MBTI but when faced with pressure at a young age we can take on an Enneagram that seems to work against natural strengths. The links between Enneagram and parenting seem to have some valid patterns imo.

  8. #58
    #KUWK Kierva's Avatar
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    That's sad, it seems like ESTPs can't be anything other than 3,7,8.

    6 doesn't count because it goes for all MBTI types.
    C#2-C#5-F#5
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    Supported range: F#2-F#4-C#5

  9. #59
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    That gets a pass mark.
    Thank you, sir!

    Spot on

    And after all Lady Gaga is a major 4.
    Shhh, Speed will come to argue with you if you do that!

    Oh no, that syndrome doesn't apply to me either, because I genuinely am special

    I consider myself special for owning up to being ordinary and boring.


    So true. People often make that mistake. Introspection doesn't guarantee insight.
    Does it guarantee you'll describe your emotions just like CuriousFeeling?

    I didn't actually mean to say 4s are exempt from those sorts of human foibles, only that they are more inclined toward self-analysis and perhaps less prone to denial, which are two common hurdles to typing yourself accurately.
    But therein lies the twist: is someone suffering from depression, regardless of actual Enneagram, more likely to type as a 4 when down in the dumps?
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  10. #60
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasper View Post

    My belief is MBTI is pretty much inherent, either we are born with one or it develops very early, Enneagram however is shaped by our early childhood. We don't change our MBTI but when faced with pressure at a young age we can take on an Enneagram that seems to work against natural strengths. The links between Enneagram and parenting seem to have some valid patterns imo.
    +10000
    in addition, I also think that the MBTI influences how the enneagram manifests in a rare combination. A 4w5 INTP is gonna appear quite different than a 4w5 ENFP superficially but they are both going to have similar core fears that drive them. Working against one's natural preferences/strengths forces one to adapt and compensate by learning new strengths. Humans are fairly predictable but also can be incredibly adaptable when the need arises.

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