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  1. #41
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - 75% of the INFPs on this forum are not typed as 4s. maybe 40-60%
    It's at least 60%. 6 is probably the third or forth most commonly occurring type for INFP - just take a look around. And I think if you asked the few INFP 6s here they would probably tell you they feel like more of a minority. Even the 9w1s probably feel more like the exception than the rule, in spite of being a very common amongst INFPs. Not that I want to suggest 4w5 INFPs are the superior norm and the others are just abnormal weirdos, or anything...

    - yes, I do think a very large amount of people on this forum are mistyped
    No, I think most people have it right. A few do have problems with self-awareness and self-insight but even then they don't tend to be way off base. And most people here have had a few years to reflect on type through interaction on the forum; this provides a sort of attrition that helps confront their inaccuracies and refine their understanding - if they are open to it, that is.

    - mistyped as 4s and 5s in particular
    I do agree that among the uninformed general public, over-identification with 4 could be a big problem, due to the romanticising of its qualities in contemporary society. But most people here are too sensible and knowledgeable about enneagram to be swayed by this BS; I would say the vast majority on TC that identify as 4, do so with no illusions of the crappy aspects of the type. If anything, I think you idealise it more than those 'claiming' to be 4.
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  2. #42
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    It's at least 60%. 6 is probably the third or forth most commonly occurring type for INFP - just take a look around. And I think if you asked the few INFP 6s here they would probably tell you they feel like more of a minority. Even the 9w1s probably feel more like the except than the rule, in spite of being a very common amongst INFPs. Not that I want to suggest 4w5 is the superior norm and the others are just weird exceptions, or anything...
    I don't think they would say that. the INFP 6s on personality cafe don't seem to think they're a minority. perhaps @Rim can help explain better

    No, I think most people have it right. A few do have problems with self-awareness and self-insight but even then they don't tend to be way off base. And most people here have had a few years to reflect on type through interaction on the forum; this provides a sort of attrition that helps confront their inaccuracies and refine their understanding - if they are open to it, that is.
    self awareness is only one issue here. the other is misinformation. most people think that enneagram is about motivations and fears, when in reality it is about lenses that cloud or perception of reality. another problem is the descriptions (this is especially true of 6s, the descriptions of type 6 are extremely misleading and capture only a small subgroup of type 6). a 3rd problem is that, moreso than MBTI, Enneagram if studied properly can give quite the reality bitch slap. unlike MBTI, which focuses on cognitive functions, natural skills and unique talents, the majority of the Enneagram is centered around irrational fixations and resulting (usually negative) behavior patterns and other symptoms. Enneagram will force you to face your deepest, darkest, most embarrassing and shameful secrets, after which, one can begin the process of observing their ego objectively and gain a clearer perspective of themselves and the rest of reality (if you want a good example of this, visit some of the enneagram type me threads on personality cafe. you would not believe how emotionally charged people can get about them)

    I do agree that among the uninformed general public, over-identification with 4 could be a big problem, due to the romanticising of its qualities in contemporary society. But there are plenty of people here that identify as 4 with no illusions of the crappy aspects. If anything, I think you idealise it more than most people 'claiming' to be 4.
    I have in the past (like, about a year ago) but honestly, the more I learn about the type I think 4s and many of the people who mistype as 4s are rather full of themselves (this isn't aimed at you, you don't seem to be). the 4s I've met IRL (and many of the ones on forums) have been highly reactive, have a bizarre sense of bravado and frequently resort to insecurity driven put downs and guilt trips. at their worst 4s are shame ridden, neurotic, self loathing and even narcissistic. I don't say this to bitch about 4s, I could tell you similar things about less integrated people of any enneagram type.
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  3. #43
    Glycerine
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I very much doubt Glycerine is a ENFJ 5.
    Then what do you think I am? An introvert? 2? 3? 6? 9?
    To be honest, in the end, it really doesn't matter but I am up to hear what you think.

    I think people can be any combination. An INFP 8 is possible if their life circumstances forced them to adapt to their surroundings. People are not meant to fit neatly into boxes.

  4. #44
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    self awareness is only one issue here. the other is misinformation. most people think that enneagram is about motivations and fears, when in reality it is about lenses that cloud or perception of reality. another problem is the descriptions (this is especially true of 6s, the descriptions of type 6 are extremely misleading and capture only a small subgroup of type 6). a 3rd problem is that, moreso than MBTI, Enneagram if studied properly can give quite the reality bitch slap. unlike MBTI, which focuses on cognitive functions, natural skills and unique talents, the majority of the Enneagram is centered around irrational fixations and resulting (usually negative) behavior patterns and other symptoms. Enneagram will force you to face your deepest, darkest, most embarrassing and shameful secrets, after which, one can begin the process of observing their ego objectively and gain a clearer perspective of themselves and the rest of reality (if you want a good example of this, visit some of the enneagram type me threads on personality cafe. you would not believe how emotionally charged people can get about them)
    Absolutely. Addressing your enneatype puts you in a vulnerable position. But I think this forum allows people to discuss it with minimal judgement because people are more knowledgeable and open. I would never think to discuss it IRL with the uninitiated because it requires decent understanding to avoid people reducing it to stereotypes, judgements or insults. I think most people IRL would totally mistype themselves based on idealisation and denial; but here it's different.

    4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive. However, true 4s tend to have a great deal of self-awareness, and therefore would likely be able to type themselves quite easily - I knew I was a 4 practically two sentences into the description, even with how the possible confusion of how closely I also identified with 5. Also 4s are more unflinching in facing harsh realities, especially about themselves, so they don't tend to end up in denial and recognise the negative qualities of type within themselves. And don't even get me started on the pride/shame of uniqueness in 4s which makes them advertise their type that much more. So the problem is that it's easy to misconstrue the clarity and readiness with which 4s embrace their type, with the eagerness of non-4s to wrongly identify with the type.

    I have in the past (like, about a year ago) but honestly, the more I learn about the type I think 4s and many of the people who mistype as 4s are rather full of themselves (this isn't aimed at you, you don't seem to be). the 4s I've met IRL (and many of the ones on forums) have been highly reactive, have a bizarre sense of bravado and frequently resort to insecurity driven put downs and guilt trips. at their worst 4s are shame ridden, neurotic, self loathing and even narcissistic. I don't say this to bitch about 4s, I could tell you similar things about less integrated people of any enneagram type.
    I don't really type people much in everyday life, so I couldn't say how other 4s behave except from how they are on TC. The part you mention of 4s at their worst doesn't bother me, but I'm confused about your usual experience of 4s. What do you mean by bravado?

    I can't say I'm like that. Manipulative behaviour like that is not something I typically consider to be 4 quality. Sure with disintergration you get the average 2-style martyrdom and sulkiness, but the 4 self-protectiveness means I withhold this from everyone but those closest to me. Typically I consider my security movement to the worst qualities of 1 to be the main source of my negative behaviour to others - I become impatient, critical, nickpicky, self-righteous and immovable. Obnoxious, arrogant and irritable, yes; but cruel and manipulative, no. Also I feel too in touch with my flaws and insecurities to take them out on others. But who knows, perhaps there are plenty of 4s out there like you described

    But anyway, I don't want derail the thread too much with 4-based discussion. Sorry BlackCat.

    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Then what do you think I am? An introvert? 2? 3? 6? 9?
    To be honest, in the end, it really doesn't matter but I am up to hear what you think.
    Not sure, but you certainly don't strike me as a 5.

    I think people can be any combination. An INFP 8 is possible if their life circumstances forced them to adapt to their surroundings. People are not meant to fit neatly into boxes.
    But you are born with your MBTI and this strongly influences how you react to certain circumstances - it forces you to follow certain patterns of thinking which constrains the possible of manifestations of type. If your possible range of reactions are limited, so can your enneatype.
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    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  5. #45
    Glycerine
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    hmmm...I thought MBTI was more nature and enneagram was more nurture. The way you word it seems like MBTI is quite deterministic. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.

  6. #46
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    hmmm...I thought MBTI was more nature and enneagram was more nurture. The way you word it seems like MBTI is quite deterministic. I think we are going to have to agree to disagree.
    They are, are we are made up of both. But surely nature has a strong influence on how you respond to your circumstances, or else why would it matter much at all? MBTI would be irrelevant and meaningless if any type could be any enneatype, because it would mean we are entirely malleable and almost completely determined by our experiences.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #47
    Lay the coin on my tongue SilkRoad's Avatar
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    I do tend to think that a lot of INFx mistype as 4 and a lot of INTx mistype as 5 because that's what they think they are "supposed" to be. I thought when I started looking into Enneagram that I was "supposed" to be a 4 and quickly realised that I definitely was not.

    I wasn't happy about my 6 identification at first but now I'm fine with it. 6 gets a lot of "negative publicity", for want of better words. I am sure that there are a lot of 6s who are mistyping, and who can blame them when you get all these dumb threads with titles like "6 is the worst type" or comments like "Phobic 6 has to be a pretty terrible type."

    Mind you, I am aware that I'm a more SJ-like INFJ than some, and so I think 6 is a more likely typing for the flavour that I am. But I dunno...there's got to be something wrong with the perception when I get people saying things to me like "you can't be a 6 if you're an INFJ/you can't be an INFJ if you're a 6" or "I've never come across an INFJ claiming to be anything other than 4 before" or "your e-type/MBTI combination is extremely rare and almost unheard of."
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  8. #48
    Diabolical Kasper's Avatar
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    Me and my P dislike the option of never. Also the fact that I fit into one of them and have come across more than a few with the same type and an eerie similarity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    - I like the "never" squares. Some types are simply contradictory in nature and I tend believe mistyping explains the 'exceptions'.
    Too simplistic/dismissive. To be contradictory in aspects does not mean incompatible. I am a highly contradictory soul.

    Plenty of mistypes do happen however.

  9. #49
    Senior Member Viridian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive.
    Positive? I'd think society nowadays was pretty leery of the Fourish emotional expression... I mean, maybe it's celebrated in places like the arthouse circuit, but, generally speaking, isn't melancholy kind of discouraged socially?

    However, true 4s tend to have a great deal of self-awareness, and therefore would likely be able to type themselves quite easily - I knew I was a 4 practically two sentences into the description, even with how the possible confusion of how closely I also identified with 5. Also 4s are more unflinching in facing harsh realities, especially about themselves, so they don't tend to end up in denial and recognise the negative qualities of type within themselves. And don't even get me started on the pride/shame of uniqueness in 4s which makes them advertise their type that much more. So the problem is that it's easy to misconstrue the clarity and readiness with which 4s embrace their type, with the eagerness of non-4s to wrongly identify with the type.
    Isn't the E-gram all about how our self-awareness is blinded, though? Doesn't that apply to Fours as well?
    Tentative typing: ISFJ 6w5 or 9w1 (Sp/S[?]).

  10. #50
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    @Southern Kross
    4s do have added issues that can cause confusion. Just as I said, the qualities of the type are romanticised by society so this would likely create a false positive.
    exactly, which is why many if not most of them are mistyped
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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