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  1. #111
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    Ok, so I saw this data on PersonalityCafe a few weeks ago, regarding the MBTI/enneagram types of all their members (each member apparently has the ability to pull the data on all the members as a whole regarding their "About Me" sections in their profiles [i.e., MBTI type, enneagram type, etc.]), and thought that, while their charts were pretty good, I could probably make em better (please excuse the INTJ). So, in light of the effort in this thread, I decided to go and do it, so we could compare @BlackCat's opinions about MBTI-Enneagram correlations against the empirical data from PersonalityCafe. Now, I remind you, this data is based on what 14,000 members put in their profiles, with about 30% leaving their enneagram type blank and 10% leaving their MBTI type blank. Obviously, some people will be unintentionally mistyped, in one or even both systems, and some people may have intentionally mistyped. But with 14,000 members, and 90% including their MBTI, and 70% including their enneagram type, I think the data is at least worth looking at. It certainly isn't perfect, but almost no study ever is, and, if we make the assumption that the 30% of people who left their enneagram types blank would have their enneagram types be distributed in roughly the same manner as the 70% who included them (and this assumption isn't too heinous), then, aside from mistypes, and the fact that people of certain MBTI type-Enneagram type combinations might have a greater or lesser propensity for joining a personality forum, the data would be clean.

    So, with all that being said, here's Blackcat's opinion on MBTI-Enneagram correlations:



    And here's PersonalityCafe's data on MBTI-Enneagram correlations:



    Obviously, their data doesn't take into account wings, but we can still gather meaningful observations by comparing the two.

    [will be including my observations here]

    The MBTI Types

    In their data, ENFPs deviate interestingly from Blackcat's opinion. Similar to ENTPs, BlackCat believes ENFPs will most likely be 7s, then 3s, and then bleed out from there, to 6s, 8s, 4s, and 2s. PersonalityCafe's data, though, shows a different story. It agrees that 7s are the most likely type, but then shows that 4 (17%) is the next most likely, and 2 (15%) the next most likely after that, with 9s (6%) coming in next most likely, and then finally 3s (5%). Tbh, I'm not terribly surprised by PerC's data, but I do think there are some possible explanations for the high number of 4s and 2s. First of all, we have a good number of ENFP 4s here on TypeC, so I'm not surprised to see 4 as the second most likely type for ENFPs. But one explanation could be that perhaps this data is capturing ambivert NFPs, like our longtime member Amargith/Satine/@Vala Faye. More interesting than the high prevalence of 4s, tho, are the 2s. And I think what might help explain their high number is something that has been noted before: that female test-takers often test as ENFP, even when they aren't, because the ENFP type is a highly attractive, sort of female ideal in our modern society (intelligent, outgoing, playful, etc.). Of course, perhaps there are just a lot of ENFP 2s. One of my ex girlfriends probably was one, so, hey, maybe they're relatively common. Another possible explanation for the high number of 2s, related to the first, could be that ENFJs (and even ESFJs [just add in the N]) are getting P results on their tests, and thus claiming to be ENFPs -- this would make a lot of sense, considering the high number of 2s among ENFJs and ESFJs. And I don't think you'd tend to see as many EFPs testing as EFJs as you would the other way around (young EFJs are more likely to want to seem open, accepting, and P-like, than are young EFPs to want to seem structured, orderly, and J-like).

    In their data, ENTPs are correlated with 5=6<9<4<8<3<<7. Per usual, the ENTPs are all sorts of fucked up. Blackcat's opinion is basically that ENTPs are mostly 3s and 7s, and that they bleed out to the sides of 7 as well (with decreasing frequency), with a decent number of 6s, a fair number of 8s, and fewer 5s. PersonalityCafe's data, on the other hand, corroborates that 3s and 7s are the most likely kinds of ENTPs, but that 7s are far more common (~3.5x more), and that 3s (10%) aren't really all that much more common than 8s (7%), 4s (?!) (6%), 9s (5%), 6s (4%), and 5s (4%). Perhaps ENTPs are more likely to just fuck around and intentionally put an false enneagram type (wouldn't surprise me), or perhaps a decent number of ENFPs are misidentified as ENTPs (I mean, really, when it comes down to it, the only terribly surprising difference is that enneagram 4 came out as the fourth most likely enneagram type). Who knows. ENTPs are always causing problems.

    A similar story to the ENFPs holds true for the ESFPs. BlackCat's opinion is that ESFPs are primarily 8<7<3. PersonalityCafe's data does not corroborate about 3s being so common, though. Rather, it shows 3=6<4=9<2<7, or that 7s are the most common (22%), followed by 2s (14%), 4s (9%) and 9s (9%), and then 6s (6%) and 3s (6%). Perhaps ESFP 3s and 8s just aren't joining personality forums. But, then again, I don't know why 7s would necessarily be more likely to join a forum than 3s and 8s. Another possible explanation for the high number of 2s could be that ESFJs are getting P results on their tests, and thus claiming to be ESFPs -- this would make sense, considering the high number of 2s among ESFJs, and the dearth of ESFJs on the forum.

    BlackCat's opinion is that ESTPs are mainly made up of 3s, 7s, and 8s, (followed by the 6s we see for every MBTI type). This belief basically bears itself out in the data, but by no means are 3s and 8s anywhere nearly as prevalent as 7s among the ESTP population, according to the data. 34% of ESTPs claimed to be 7s, 12% claimed to be 3s, and 9% claimed to be 8s. Once again, maybe 3s and 8s just aren't joining personality forums. Alternatively, perhaps while 3s and 8s do show up among the EPs, 7 is just far more common.

    In their data, ENFJs are correlated with 9<4=6<3=7<2. As Blackcat argued, ENFJ 8s are very rare (~1% in their data), but, as others argued, ENFJ 9s are more common than previously thought (~6%). Their data also predicts more ENFJ 7s than in Blackcat's opinion (BlackCat figured they'd be rare, but their data has them tied for the second most common), and fewer enneagram 1s.

    In their data, ESFJs are correlated with 1<9<3=4<6<2. Their data have fewer ones, more 9s, fewer 3s, and more 4s than Blackcat's opinions would imply. These are interesting and rather significant deviations from Blackcat's opinion, moreso than for most of the other types. It should be noted that ESFJs, despite their significant makeup of the general population, are the least represented MBTI type on the forum (they only make up ~0.6% of the forum [vs __% in the general population]), so this data, which includes only ~90 ESTJs, may not be a large enough sample to create a representative distribution.

    In their data, ENTJs are correlated with 1<6<3<8, which is roughly what Blackcat's opinions would imply.

    In their data, ESTJs are correlated with enneagrams 8<1<6<3, which are the same four most common types as predicted by Blackcat, but there are fewer ESTJ 8s in their data than in Blackcat's opinion. Perhaps, once again, enneagram 8s (and particularly sensor 8s) just don't join personality forums as frequently? I somewhat doubt it has to do with ESTJ 8s being disproportionately in the "unknown" pile. Also, ftr, despite their significant makeup of the general population, ESTJs are one of the two least represented MBTI types on the forum (second only to ESFJs [each make up ~0.6% of the forum {vs __% and __%, respectively, in the general population}]), so this data, which includes ~90 ESTJs, may not be a large enough sample to create a representative distribution.

    The Enneagram Types

    As BlackCat predicted, there is a high correlation between enneagram 3 and extroversion. That the data bears out this relationship kind of hurts the thesis that perhaps enneagram 3s just don't join personality forums, but, at the same time, perhaps they just don't join at as great a rate, and, as such, there is actually 2x-3x the representation of enneagram 3s in the real world as on personality forums.

    As BlackCat predicted, there is a high correlation between enneagram 9 and introversion. predicted greater number seem to be ENFPs, ESFPs, and
    Last edited by Zarathustra; 06-07-2012 at 01:24 PM.
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  2. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post


    (real response will be later today)
    Thank you. I'm tired from work and really didn't feel like writing out an entire rebuttal in response to your next counter argument. The cheap picture will suffice.

    EDIT: Oh damn, I must be color blind, didn't notice the white lettering there. Very well, I will patiently await your next response.

  3. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    That's what I leaned towards in my earlier explanation. I hesitate to tie e-type strictly to one function or another, though, and believe that enneagram is an emergent property of the functions interacting together. Having said that, there's a strong relationship between the inferior and the root enneagram fixation. I've read before that enneagram type is innate. If our enneagram type is set before our MBTI type, then it's plausible that our inferior develops before our dominant function does. As we interact with our environment, the dominant develops as a kind of counterphobic shell around the vulnerable center, and naturally there's an inverse relationship between the development of this "shell" and the repression of the inferior. Intratype variation in enneagram is about this dominant/inferior balance, and how we as individuals rationalize it.
    Yeah, I agree with you and it makes a lot of sense. For me, I think I aspire to my baby Ti and it shows up through the emergence of enneagram 5 but I don't think it contradicts Fe necessarily and actually in a strange manner is complementary to it. In the simplest terms, Fe is about cultural values, social pragmatism, and the interpersonal. I attempt to intellectualize that information to gain more information in the realm of people. So yeah, you pretty much said all that in a very concise manner. Thank you.

  4. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Yeah, I agree with you and it makes a lot of sense. For me, I think I aspire to my baby Ti and it shows up through the emergence of enneagram 5 but I don't think it contradicts Fe necessarily and actually in a strange manner is complementary to it. In the simplest terms, Fe is about cultural values, social pragmatism, and the interpersonal. I attempt to intellectualize that information to gain more information in the realm of people. So yeah, you pretty much said all that in a very concise manner. Thank you.
    Yeah, but I don't know about the enneagram type being set before MBTI type, nor inferior before dominant stuff.

    The rest of it was plausible, though, and I've been having similar thoughts as of late.

    There are some proclaimed enneagram 4 ENTJs on PersonalityCafe.

    I thought to myself: 1) ; 2) aspirational (inferior) Fi?

  5. #115
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    I never thought people could take this typing correlation with MBTI and Enneagram that seriously, cuz i just do it 4 da lolz

  6. #116
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    @Zarathustra: I am still skeptical about the innateness of enneagram because I honestly think that if I had a different life experience I would probably be a 2 or 3 ENFJ now but they seem kinda foreign to me. lol

  7. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    @Zarathustra: I am still skeptical about the innateness of enneagram because I honestly think that if I had a different life experience I would probably be a 2 or 3 ENFJ now but they seem kinda foreign to me. lol
    Yeah, I agree.

    There definitely doesn't seem to be any consensus theory as to why people have the enneagram type they do, but the child's relationship to its parents seems to be one of the more prominent and sensible ones out there.

  8. #118
    Senior Member LEGERdeMAIN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HelenOfTroy View Post
    You seem to be getting this down to a pseudo-science.
    no wai

  9. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by EJCC View Post
    I only just discovered Naranjo... and my first impression was that his descriptions of type 1 + instinctual variants were a load of stereotypical crap. But maybe the rest of his stuff is good?
    I think they're stereotypical because they describe the very core neuroses, not taking into account how much one may have actually overcome their core.

    As such, his descriptions are chock full of correlations to personality disorders--most of his value is in his attempt to organize them properly. Figs 5 and 6 are essentially all one needs to know to get a rough-cut look at the fundamentals of the Enneagram. His introductory chapters are the best part of the book and are even more insightful than his type descriptions, and they lay down the foundation for the theory.

    God, this is all so speculative, my Si is having a hard time with it. I wish we had better evidence than this!
    Welcome to typology!


  10. #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by LEGERdeMAIN View Post
    no wai
    Ok lege, you have my attention, what can i do for you?
    "We knew he was someone who had a tragic flaw, that's where his greatness came from"

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