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  1. #101
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    Is that your evil 8 wing rearing its head?
    Yes indeed.

    Naranjo's descriptions are pretty extreme in a way, but in a way believable because he describes the NEUROSIS of the types, and you have to think in a more positive way if you want to see a more healthy type for every description. This I think applies to 8 pretty well, 8s aren't necessarily evil, they may just overcompensate when they're unhealthy to avoid being controlled, and numb out feelings, etc. You just have to think of them more positively if you want to imagine a more healthy type. A healthy 8 WOULDN'T feel controlled like an unhealthy 8 would in some circumstances. There are just things to consider. If I state how someone describes a type, that isn't my opinion, that's Naranjo's. What you do with that information is your own. I don't take it as god's word, I elaborate on them in my mind to imagine how they could be otherwise; it would be ridiculous to think of his descriptions in a 2D way because they are the NEUROSIS' of the types.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  2. #102
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zarathustra View Post
    No ENTJ 9s? How about @Wind-Up Rex (or is she 8w9)?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Thanks for a great summarization and for the color redo/observations!

    As for the questions-

    IFP 3s- I've been very confused by a few, select IFPs who have seemed 3 to me. The way that 3 would have manifested in them would be totally unconscious, since they are Fi dom they would legitimately think that they were how they were acting, AND get personally attached to it and defend who they are in that moment as if it were who they've been their entire lives. But yet, the way that they had reacted to situations and such told me 4, but they were also very strongly 3. I concluded for them that they were 4w3s. Some supposed IFP 4s could be social last EFPs, who would appear introverted to the less educated.

    ESFP 4- As much as I want to believe that these exist, Se dom and 4 just simply cannot exist in the same person I think. Se doms would be far too... present in reality to really go down the 4 defense path I think. 4s get very skewed in their perceptions of reality. It doesn't seem like Se doms really give that much of a shit, and really aren't skewed that much in their perceptions (one of the key qualities about unhealthy to average 4s is that they are jaded, and becoming healthy and integrating to 1 causes them to lose some of this jadedness, and most Se doms that I meet seem to be anything but jaded, they are very exact and sure of their definitions of reality). They are totally there with reality, who they are within that reality, and fit right in with it. It doesn't make sense for them to think of the "other side" (the way 4s see it) and identify that strongly with it. The only ESFPs that I've known to do that have been 6s, and it's been specifically because of some reality oriented reason. The "other side" being related to "the man" or a certain group of individuals that they see as being untrustworthy. CP 6 ESPs also love being edgy in general to get reactions and feel some form of power for themselves, which ESFPs could get an identity in and be "different" in that way. But it would be for a 6 reason and not a 4 reason.

    4s are also categorized as highly inwardly based and introspective... and Se dom. Yeah. A lot of ESFPs that I know really aren't that self aware at all, and have a hard time going inward with questions that really test them. ESFPs also don't seem to constantly be comparing themselves to other people, they just take information as it is typically in an Se dom fashion. A lot of ESFPs that I know don't discriminate that much with their friends and will hang out with pretty much anyone, and don't typically have that secretly snobby attitude that 4s do.

    ENFJ 8/9- ENFJ 8 is another one of those typings I haven't really given much thought to, simply because of how ridiculous it seems. This is another one of those cases where I think that these people could be confusing themselves with counter-phobic 6s. If you read Naranjo he characterizes 8s as being a sadistic person who relishes seeing other's frustration and pain (and perhaps because of the fact that they themselves feel it and they want to make others feel as they do, in extremes and in a very angry way). They are also characterized and being conniving at heart, obsessed with dominance. They deny the effect that they have on others if it's negative and don't really care about how others feel. They are also characterized as being primarily "here and now" people, who aren't focused as much inwardly (you see a lot of TeSe ENTJs, who honestly have a hard time with their intuition). They desensitize themselves to the feelings of others and their own. An ENFJ "8" is probably just a counterphobic 6 who is unhealthy/just a dick.

    As for ENFJ 9, that is indeed an oversight, and I need to change it to uncommon or rare. I know for certain that it's possible, as strange as it is. You make a good point with Reagan and MLK.

    ENTJ 9- I still think the idea of an ENTJ 9 is ridiculous... The apathy, the totally passive attitude, the fact that most 9s totally avoid introspection and aren't exactly the intellectual kind. The way 9s deal with issues is avoiding them until they're forced to deal with them. 9s a lot of the time tend to be irresponsible with issues pertaining to reality because of their laziness. 9s cut corners and tend to take the easy way out. Everything revolves around their own sense of comfort. Really not ENTJ. I could understand INTJ, as rare as that would be, but a Te dom 9 seems to be out of the question. As for rex herself, she self types as INTJ and 9w8.
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I do think ENFJ 8 is for sure a possibility, but my statement still stands that a lot of people who think that they are 8s turn out being CP 6s. With the newest revision I was going to add ENFJ 8 to "rare" most likely.



    Yeah some of his correlations are silly. Like INTJ 7.



    I'll for sure have to give this some thought! Reread the type 2 descriptions and all that with Si in mind. 1w2s can be very typically 2ish in some instances though, @EJCC comes in mind with that. Another thought is that maybe if said STJ is an sx 1w2 then the 2 wing could be brought out more as a result? Nevertheless I should be considering these offbeat types just in case I happen to run into one and am thrown a bit for a loop.

    (No, I'm not totally convinced that some types are 100% incompatible, yes there will always be some strange type combinations that don't make sense. The reason why @Zarathustra's updated color scheme made white "very rare" is for this exact reason. I do still think some type combinations are absolutely ridiculous, like ETJ 4 for example, but I will still include that in "Very Rare" just in case. I told you guys that this was going to get changed over time!)
    Fwiw, Kitty, I'm thinking ENTJ again at this point. I do feel, however, fairly confident of the 9w8 typing. My best explanation for why the concept is not a total wash is two-fold. First, I think you somewhat misrepresent Te in your post. As a Te-dom, my impression of my dominant function is that of a creative force, rather than a merely directive one. Extraverted Thinking is really best exhibited when its user is building a structure, or marshalling resources towards an objective. Now, these things can be done gracelessly, but most of us find that we're only as effective as the relationships surrounding the project.

    But then how can an individual who is supposed to be fundamentally goal-oriented be a 9? My take (or at least my theory about myself) is that it related to Inferior Fi. While I and other ENTJs are very good at defining what and how, we're not always so attuned to the why of our actions. At my core, Im fairly wuewei about life, and dont tend to get too emotional things. Taken together I can be like a blank slate sometimes until I come across a challenge worth building around. And even when Im working, it's less about me and more about the project at hand. In short, a less defined sense of self allows me to be whatever my work needs me to be.

    I think that probably to a lesser degree any ENTJ you speak with is going to identify with this. ENTJs that are somethingw9 are not that uncommon afterall.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - I would say INFP 4w5 should be green and INFP 4w3 should be blue.
    Most of the INFPs I know are 4w5.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - for ISFP, INFP and ISFJ, 6w7 should be red




    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    - 9 is MUCH more common than that, 9w1 is very common for ISFPs and 9w8 is probably blue for INFPs
    I dunno man…

  4. #104
    garbage
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Yeah some of his correlations are silly. Like INTJ 7.
    Off the top of my head, he also correlated 6 with Ti, but counterphobic 6 with ENTJ.


    But also, surely the difference between a "5 with a strong 4 wing" and a "4 with a strong 5 wing," for example, shouldn't make such a drastic difference as "Very common" to "Never"?

  5. #105
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wind-Up Rex View Post
    Fwiw, Kitty, I'm thinking ENTJ again at this point. I do feel, however, fairly confident of the 9w8 typing. My best explanation for why the concept is not a total wash is two-fold. First, I think you somewhat misrepresent Te in your post. As a Te-dom, my impression of my dominant function is that of a creative force, rather than a merely directive one. Extraverted Thinking is really best exhibited when its user is building a structure, or marshalling resources towards an objective. Now, these things can be done gracelessly, but most of us find that we're only as effective as the relationships surrounding the project.

    But then how can an individual who is supposed to be fundamentally goal-oriented be a 9? My take (or at least my theory about myself) is that it related to Inferior Fi. While I and other ENTJs are very good at defining what and how, we're not always so attuned to the why of our actions. At my core, Im fairly wuewei about life, and dont tend to get too emotional things. Taken together I can be like a blank slate sometimes until I come across a challenge worth building around. And even when Im working, it's less about me and more about the project at hand. In short, a less defined sense of self allows me to be whatever my work needs me to be.

    I think that probably to a lesser degree any ENTJ you speak with is going to identify with this. ENTJs that are somethingw9 are not that uncommon afterall.
    /like. I hate being in the spotlight of "the expert" and then basically being schooled like this. :P I will admit to not understanding ENTJs as much as I'd like to, opposite types afterall. I'm just so used to very aggressive ones, but not ones who are more in tune with their Ni. I do see Te more as a driving force, and in theory it wouldn't clash very much at all.

    So this explains your self typing of INTJ a bit! 9ness. Type 9 and ENJ... such a weird thought because ISPs are so commonly 9 as well. I still think type 9 ENJs are rare, but it's just a whole new realm of possibilities that are being unfolded for me with some of the realizations that I'm coming to with this thread and with doing work with you on your self typing.

    I'll have to formulate in my mind how ENJ and 9 fit together, as well as other typings such as ENFJ and 8. I have a bit of work to do. But for now, I'm going to add 9w1 ENFJ to "rare" and 9w8 ENTJ to "rare" when I do the update.

    Honestly ENTJ 9 makes about as much sense as ISFP 9, only in opposite ways. I feel like a blank slate, like you do, until something comes up, only it's in an emotional/worth/personal evaluation rather than that building force of Te. Hmm.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  6. #106
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Is Naranjo the gold standard? His Enneagram descriptions are among the best, but I'm not exactly a fan of most of his correlations with MBTI types (primarily because he cites Kiersey, whereas.. we, well, don't), and I'd hope that his correlations wouldn't factor into ours.
    I only just discovered Naranjo... and my first impression was that his descriptions of type 1 + instinctual variants were a load of stereotypical crap. But maybe the rest of his stuff is good?
    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    I'll for sure have to give this some thought! Reread the type 2 descriptions and all that with Si in mind. 1w2s can be very typically 2ish in some instances though, EJCC comes in mind with that. Another thought is that maybe if said STJ is an sx 1w2 then the 2 wing could be brought out more as a result? Nevertheless I should be considering these offbeat types just in case I happen to run into one and am thrown a bit for a loop.
    This is one of those things that makes perfect sense to me in theory, but I wonder how it would work in practice. Because I have such a strong 2 wing, I can see how that tendency could potentially be even stronger with other ESTJs and how they could become 2s. I can also imagine it pretty well because, since I discovered that one of my best friends is an ENFP 2w3, I no longer associate type 2 with Fe.

    But I think, in theory, if ESTJs were to be 2s, they would be a lot more likely to be 2w3 than 2w1. Maybe it's because the 2w1s in my life are mostly INFJs, contrasting with the ENFP 2w3 mentioned above, but I feel like the 2w1s I know have doormat tendencies that would be near impossible for a Te dom to have.

    God, this is all so speculative, my Si is having a hard time with it. I wish we had better evidence than this!
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
    Coriolis: "Is that the ESTJ Serenity Prayer?"



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  7. #107
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    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    Is Naranjo the gold standard? His Enneagram descriptions are among the best, but I'm not exactly a fan of most of his correlations with MBTI types (primarily because he cites Kiersey, whereas.. we, well, don't), and I'd hope that his correlations wouldn't factor into ours.
    This pretty much captures how I feel concerning Naranjo. Excellent descriptions, type correlations.


  8. #108
    Glycerine
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    Hmmm. Maybe there could be an explanation of the odd combinations based on fixations of relief and/or inferior functions? That's how make sense of all this.

  9. #109
    Senior Member Noon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by senza_tema View Post
    I remember that Noon, who is an ISFP, was considering e3 for herself for a while. I don't know if she's still doing that or not.
    I think I've decided on 4w3 after filling out some introspection questionnaire at that tritype card site and realizing that e4 and e1 themes are too prominent and consistent throughout my life for it not to be significant somehow.

  10. #110
    my floof is luxury Wind Up Rex's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glycerine View Post
    Hmmm. Maybe there could be an explanation of the odd combinations based on fixations of relief and/or inferior functions? That's how make sense of all this.
    That's what I leaned towards in my earlier explanation. I hesitate to tie e-type strictly to one function or another, though, and believe that enneagram is an emergent property of the functions interacting together. Having said that, there's a strong relationship between the inferior and the root enneagram fixation. I've read before that enneagram type is innate. If our enneagram type is set before our MBTI type, then it's plausible that our inferior develops before our dominant function does. As we interact with our environment, the dominant develops as a kind of counterphobic shell around the vulnerable center, and naturally there's an inverse relationship between the development of this "shell" and the repression of the inferior. Intratype variation in enneagram is about this dominant/inferior balance, and how we as individuals rationalize it.
    And so long as you haven’t experienced this: to die and so to grow,
    you are only a troubled guest on the dark earth

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