[Traditional Enneagram] Wimpiest Enneatype

[Elfboy]

I would argue that 1's, 3's, 5's, and 8's are actually the strongest or least wimpy of the circle. Who cares what their inner motivations are? They get a lot done in the world and often have much to look back on as proof of their competence (beside the 8, the aforementioned types form the Competent triad). I can't say the same for 9's and most especially for 4's.

I agree with all of this except 5. average and unhealthy 5s sit around intellectually postulating and don't get stuff done
Edit: my thoughts currently are, from most to least wimpy:
9>4>2>5=7>1>8>3
with 6s ranging all over the spectrum from extremely wimpy to the complete opposite

 

[Thunderbringer]

I'm well aware of the flaws of both 1s and 8s, but not every flaw can be classified as wimpy. wimpy means you lack power (physical, psychological, mental etc) to get done what you want to and thus are tossed around by the tides of life. the opposite of a wimpy person is someone who wills for something to happen in the world and it gets done. essentially, wimpy-ness boils down to effectiveness and 8s and 1s don't tend to lack in that department.
PS: taking this into consideration, I'm taking 3s off the wimpy list. in theory, they are wimpy because they rely on the support and "that a boy's" of others, but in practice they are seldom in short supply of these and get a lot done in the world. actually, in practice, they might be the least wimpy type

No. It's wimpy to go through life having a barrier up to block people from getting in by domineering them or by imposing your own personal sense of justice onto others just because you always want to be right. You used the same description to describe your own definition of power which again, is skewed. Anyone can "will" for anything to happen and anyone can be "effective" while still being "wimpy". If someone went through life taking care of their work/school life to the best of their abilities yet didn't focus at all on their personal life and problems, are they or are they not wimpy? What if they were using their schoolwork/work to run away from other serious problems they were facing? Would they not be considered wimpy because they were being effective at working even though they weren't taking care of other more serious matters in their life?

And if we're going by your definition of what being wimpy is, then 2's, 6's, and 7's couldn't possibly be wimpy because both types work extremely hard and are effective at getting things done.

 

[garbage]

aif we focus on external wimpy-ness, there is.

I regard that as extremely boring because the obvious answers to 'external wimpiness' then become 9, phobic 6, and 4. It's even more boring than that because we're seeing many posts with no rationale behind them; we're just seein' a bunch of numbers flying around. That's largely because the answers are obvious.

Regarding effectiveness, there are a hell of a lot of people who don't know what they truly want--be it because their so-called wants emerge at the surface-level and/or are dictated by social pressures, perceived moral obligations, basic fears, so on and so forth. So, they can't exactly bring what they want into the world because they haven't identified it.

Climbing up the wrong ladder really, really quickly is not the same thing as being effective. That's, like, one of the fundamental tenets in the book The Seven Habits for Highly Effective People, which has 'effective' right there in the title.

But this digresses into boring 'internal wimpiness' territory, which has no room for discussion or disagreement, so I suppose I ought to leave it alone.

 

[chickpea]

I agree with all of this except 5. average and unhealthy 5s sit around intellectually postulating and don't get stuff done
Edit: my thoughts currently are, from most to least wimpy:
9>4>2>5=7>1>8>3
with 6s ranging all over the spectrum from extremely wimpy to the complete opposite

why is 3 the least wimpy?

 

[Elfboy]

No. It's wimpy to go through life having a barrier up to block people from getting in by domineering them or by imposing your own personal sense of justice onto others just because you always want to be right. You used the same description to describe your own definition of power which again, is skewed. Anyone can "will" for anything to happen and anyone can be "effective" while still being "wimpy".

blocking people out of your life is a strength, not a weakness. blocking people out means that you can be more rational, have less agendas to balance, have less obligation and have less social pressure. granted, I don't advocate blocking everyone out of your life, but personally, I think most people could use more time to themselves and less people to keep track of (and definitely less people to try to fit in with/impress)
as far as I'm concerned, people are either:
A: people to exchange information with
B: people to form deep connection with (there is only room for a few of these, not the 1000 friends most people have on facebook)
C: contacts you can network with to further your career
D: a means of entertainment
or
E: useless

If someone went through life taking care of their work/school life to the best of their abilities yet didn't focus at all on their personal life and problems, are they or are they not wimpy? What if they were using their schoolwork/work to run away from other serious problems they were facing? Would they not be considered wimpy because they were being effective at working even though they weren't taking care of other more serious matters in their life?

not wimpy. I would suggest they take care of these things because I agree that they are problems, but they are a different kind of problem then being wimpy (I've suffered from both before and I can tell you they freakin suck)

And if we're going by your definition of what being wimpy is, then 2's, 6's, and 7's couldn't possibly be wimpy because both types work extremely hard and are effective at getting things done.

- you actually have a point with 2s (they just are more ambitious in the interpersonal realm, but they tend to get what they're looking for)
- 7s are wimpy because we run away from our problems, procrastinate and think things will magically work out without having to make them. also, we're burdened with making everything we do fun because our productivity plummets if it isn't (as a 7 who values hard work and discipline, I have trouble facing this inner demon)
- I stand by my reasoning for wanting to discuss external rather than internal wimpy-ness (ie, for the sake of controversy and forcing one to pick an option as opposed to just agreeing and making boring discussion) but for me personally, being that I'm a 7w8 with 1 and 3 fixes, I'm starting to think there is some truth to what you said in my definition of wimpy being biased. I will reevaluate this

 

[Elfboy]

why is 3 the least wimpy?

3 is the least (externally) wimpy because they are the most effective at getting results in the real world.

 

[Elfboy]

I regard that as extremely boring because the obvious answers to 'external wimpiness' then become 9, phobic 6, and 4. It's even more boring than that because we're seeing many posts with no rationale behind them; we're just seein' a bunch of numbers flying around. That's largely because the answers are obvious.

Regarding effectiveness, there are a hell of a lot of people who don't know what they truly want--be it because their so-called wants emerge at the surface-level and/or are dictated by social pressures, perceived moral obligations, basic fears, so on and so forth. So, they can't exactly bring what they want into the world because they haven't identified it.

Climbing up the wrong ladder really, really quickly is not the same thing as being effective. That's, like, one of the fundamental tenets in the book The Seven Habits for Highly Effective People, which has 'effective' right there in the title.

But this digresses into boring 'internal wimpiness' territory, which has no room for discussion or disagreement, so I suppose I ought to leave it alone.

you have a good point here. I consider anyone who doesn't know what they want to be a wimp because not knowing what you want means you don't have a will, which means that you are tossed around by life and a victim of your circumstances. that said, I support everyone discovering what they want in life, but not for the sole purpose of not being wimpy (pursuing such an involved activity for such a shallow reason would be silly and kinda defeat the purpose)

 

[garbage]

you have a good point here. I consider anyone who doesn't know what they want to be a wimp because not knowing what you want means you don't have a will, which means that you are tossed around by life and a victim of your circumstances. that said, I support everyone discovering what they want in life, but not for the sole purpose of not being wimpy (pursuing such an involved activity for such a shallow reason would be silly and kinda defeat the purpose)

Let's make things interesting by ignoring that 'good point' and also exploring the option that 9s aren't as stereotypically wimpy as we might think.

On the surface level, at least, 9s stereotypically don't really want or need a whole lot out of life. They want harmony and simplicity, generally, and they are pretty unimposing. If they just plain don't want a lot--that is, if they don't have a lot of things that they want to 'will into existence' in the first place, are they wimpy?

Can we contrast them to the types that are extremely picky about what they want (I dunno, 1s?) and strive to make every single detail of their external reality 'perfect' by their own estimation? Are the picky types thus the most willful and thus the most potentially not-wimpy?

Would we regard the more adaptable, accepting, and accommodating types as lacking a will and thus wimpy? To me, it could be that they simply don't want to dictate a whole fat lot about the world around them--that they may truly want to instead act as catalysts for others (as, say, psychologists and counselors do) or to provide stability.

 

[animenagai]

Your definition of 'wimpy' differs from ours in that you're looking for outward displays of wimpiness, weakness, and cowardice; we're looking at the core of the person, their internal psychological makeup.

Using the latter definition, 'inward' wimpiness/cowardice may manifest as outward brashness and bullying. Moreover, I would note that the core of the Enneagram is that the types point to coping mechanisms (regarded by some to be irrational strategies for obtaining happiness) that are intended to be overcome. I think that anyone who is unwilling to do so--to face themselves--is a coward.

I hope that explains my (our?) perspective.

Both 'outward' and 'inward' wimpiness are fine subjects. Which do you want to talk about?

See, I just assumed that we're talking about outward wimpiness because the enneagram as a system is about internal wimpiness. You can look at it as 9 common defence mechanisms that get engrained into different personalities. So really, all types at their core are wimpy (at least before they develop into healthier states).

We're all in the same boat! Postmodernist rainbow orgy yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay!

 

[Elfboy]

Let's make things interesting by ignoring that 'good point' and also exploring the option that 9s aren't as stereotypically wimpy as we might think.

On the surface level, at least, 9s stereotypically don't really want or need a whole lot out of life. They want harmony and simplicity, generally, and they are pretty unimposing. If they just plain don't want a lot--that is, if they don't have a lot of things that they want to 'will into existence' in the first place, are they wimpy?
Can we contrast them to the types that are extremely picky about what they want and strive to make every single detail of their external reality 'perfect' by their own estimation?
Would we regard the more adaptable, accepting, and accommodating types as lacking a will and thus wimpy? To me, it could be that they simply don't want to dictate a whole fat lot about the world around them--that they may truly want to instead act as catalysts for others (as, say, psychologists and counselors do) or to provide stability.

wrong, 9s are self forgetting and disconnected from their own thoughts and feelings (actually, they're disconnected from just about everything most of the time). healthy 9s become proactive, discover their voice, what they want for themselves, what they want to do and go out and get it, but until then, they are extremely wimpy
PS: accommodating types get on my nerves, but I don't know if I'd call all of them wimpy.

 

[KDude]

Let's make things interesting by ignoring that 'good point' and also arguing that 9s aren't wimpy.

On the surface level, at least, 9s stereotypically don't really want or need a whole lot out of life. They want harmony and simplicity, generally, and they are pretty unimposing. If they just plain don't want a lot--that is, if they don't have a lot of things that they want to 'will into existence' in the first place, are they wimpy?

Can we contrast them to the types that are extremely picky about what they want and strive to make every single detail of their external reality 'perfect' by their own estimation?

Would we regard the more adaptable, accepting, and accommodating types as lacking a will and thus wimpy? To me, it could be that they simply don't want to dictate a whole fat lot about the world around them--that they may truly want to instead act as catalysts for others (as, say, psychologists and counselors do) or to provide stability.

Agreed. There are all kinds of strengths, depending on the situation. A 9 might like to chill and be unassuming, but that doesn't stop them from handling a crisis. They're good at dealing with changing circumstances. Some who are more controlling don't know how to be strong about that. I've seen many people like this lose their shit. edit: Btw, I'm not a 9 myself. Not trying to show some preference. I'm just saying.

 

[Elfboy]

Agreed. There are all kinds of strengths, depending on the situation. A 9 might like to chill and be unassuming, but that doesn't stop them from handling a crisis. They're good at dealing with changing circumstances. Some who are more controlling don't know how to be strong about that. I've seen many people like this lose their shit.

it will if they aren't integrated. an average/unhealthy can be great at comforting and mediating, but if you're talking about facing/dealing with a problem directly and being willing to deal with any conflict that comes up, we're talking about an integrated 9

 

[garbage]

wrong, 9s are self forgetting and disconnected from their own thoughts and feelings (actually, they're disconnected from just about everything most of the time).

Oh, yeah; whoops

healthy 9s because proactive, discover their voice, what they want for themselves, what they want to do and go out and get it, but until then, they are extremely wimpy

I don't buy that healthy versions of the type would become all 'balls-out' and super-direct about what they want. But then, I don't buy the whole notion of 'directions of integration and disintegration,' either--a discussion for another time and another place, I suppose. I believe that your description either comes from conflating healthiness with balls-out assertiveness/aggressiveness, from 9 integrating with 3, or from my own incomplete understanding of the details of the type--I'm not sure which, but you do make a convincing case against my devil's advocate argument for 9..

--

Regarding accommodation, I have found that one of the best ways to get what I want is to win others over to the cause--which means accommodating them to at least some degree, meeting them on their level and leading them to mine, bridging the gap, learning to communicate, and so on.

Personally, I know that I will not follow so-called leaders who do not listen to their teams--because if they have a vision, in the end, they will not have a team to carry it out. Several of the teams that I've led that have resulted in an execution of one of my visions--giving me what I want in the process--occurred because I was able to give others what they wanted as well.

Another habit to increase effectiveness from the Seven Habits? Striving for 'win/win' solutions. So, nah; if the definition of 'not wimpy' is 'effective,' accommodating types are pretty much not wimpy--if they can play to their strengths, and if we don't regard accommodating to mean completely selling one's soul to appease others.

Being effective means having a clear picture of what you want and knowing how best to carry it out--and how best to utilize resources, including other people.

--

To the general question--if a person is adaptable but principled, but not particularly picky, should we regard them as wimpy because they have no specific will to assert? Should the pickiest types be regarded as the least wimpy because they have more to assert? What if they get all neurotic if their will isn't carried out to the last detail?

Picky types have a lot of specific, detailed will to assert, and they fight tooth and nail for the world to accommodate them. It's not a particularly healthy attitude, but it seems that it's not wimpy in the sense that we mean, either.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

You guys have moved past this already, but it seems that the distinction between weakness and wimpiness has been overlooked.

[YOUTUBE="uW9Q1cm_Tnw"]Perfect example of a wimp[/YOUTUBE]

 

[Elfboy]

Oh, yeah; whoops
I don't buy that healthy versions of the type would become all 'balls-out' and super-direct about what they want. But then, I don't buy the whole notion of 'directions of integration and disintegration,' either--a discussion for another time and another place, I suppose. I believe that your description either comes from conflating healthiness with balls-out assertiveness/aggressiveness, from 9 integrating with 3, or from my own incomplete understanding of the details of the type--I'm not sure which, but you do make a convincing case against my devil's advocate argument for 9..

it does in the case of 9s.

Regarding accommodation, I have found that one of the best ways to get what I want is to win others over to the cause--which means accommodating them to at least some degree, meeting them on their level and leading them to mine, bridging the gap, learning to communicate, and so on.
Personally, I know that I will not follow so-called leaders who do not listen to their teams--because if they have a vision, in the end, they will not have a team to carry it out. Several of the teams that I've led that have resulted in an execution of one of my visions--giving me what I want in the process--occurred because I was able to give others what they wanted as well.
Another habit to increase effectiveness from the Seven Habits? Striving for 'win/win' solutions. So, nah; if the definition of 'not wimpy' is 'effective,' accommodating types are pretty much not wimpy--if they can play to their strengths, and if we don't regard accommodating to mean completely selling one's soul to appease others.
Being effective means having a clear picture of what you want and knowing how best to carry it out--and how best to utilize resources, including other people.

I agree with all of this, this is why I said I don't think accommodating people are wimpy. it is a useful, powerful and necessary in a business setting. that said, people with overly accommodating personalities get on my nerves.

To the general question--if a person is adaptable but principled, but not particularly picky, should we regard them as wimpy because they have no specific will to assert? Should the pickiest types be regarded as the least wimpy because they have more to assert?

no and no. the principled person knows what he wants, he's just willing to accept a broad range of things that fall under the umbrella of what that is. the picky person is assertive and making an effort to get their way. internally at least, this is not wimpy.

Picky types have a lot of specific, detailed will to assert, and they fight tooth and nail for the world to accommodate them. It's not a particularly healthy attitude, but it seems that it's not wimpy in the sense that we mean, either.

agreed

 

[Vilku]

Gotta do something at least. Just put your hands up and defend yourself. The "damage is done", but the damage can always get worse.

i dont really SEE the world.
theres simply no way i could see it when someone intentionally surprice attacks on me, as i anyways dont pay attention..

while i certainly have better reflexes than them, for being a fencer, it aint enough, should also be able to see it in the first place and i only will if im specifically in the see mode. (aka zooming my eyes to see some object with more quality, but then i dont even do that every day.)

...no. sometimes you need to make peace. I'm not suggesting you turn into some aggressive macho thug or anything but 24/7 peace 52 weeks out of the year is impossible. you have to address issues and conflict in order for them to be resolved, and sometimes it's messy.

well, thats exactly what i mean. they are ready to stand for peace even if its messy. im not.

you don't see the point in
- defending yourself?
- making it clear that there are punishments for attacking you so as to prevent future attacks?
- teaching the other person a lesson so he doesn't do the same to others? (seriously, this does teach most of them a lesson. proverbs says to ride a fool with a rod on his back)
- lessening the chance of getting seriously injured
apathy and self forgetting =/= strength. you are not a background flower, you are a person with rights (among them defending yourself) and importance in this world. inaction is not going to make the world a better place, either for yourself or for others

the people who attack me are randoms, people i dont know.. if someone knows me, theres no way they would ever attack, as im nice enough to treat everyone as if they were as beautiful as i even when they are not, and by doing so i make them actually become more beautiful by gaining the confidence to.
(ive noticed sensors in particular, expect to be looked down by me since my beauty has no comparison, but when i give genuine interest, it lightens them up so much.)

sensor logic.. its either beauty or some other appearance factor for them ugh.. <.<
and these filthy ones make the illogical assument i would talk of _them_ when im laughing when talking to someone. (and i dont particularly hide smiling at all, something they interpret incorrectly.)
UGHF... arrogant people, always expecting others to speak of them. when in fact i never would sacrifice a word so boring. not like i wanted to take the risk of entering sensoric discussions by bringing them up, i rather avoid such as much as i can.

also, self defence is illegal here. although attacking doesnt really seem, .. <.< or the punishment for attacking is inexistent. and thus not even worth to mention to police, since they are anyways flooded with assaults they couldnt care to do anything about.

laws, SO justful........

this country is screwed up. if they just made self defence legal, id carry a rapier everywhere around. would fit perfectly my rather fantasy/sci-fi look and eh, guess they wouldnt attack then since i know how to use rapiers.

also, finland is filled with these kind of people. they are everywhere, theres simply far too many of them for any impact to happen even if one were to remove 100 of them.
its no wonder, since the laws here are as good as useless.
criminal/violence paradise.

 

[garbage]

no and no. the principled person knows what he wants, he's just willing to accept a broad range of things that fall under the umbrella of what that is. the picky person is assertive and making an effort to get their way. internally at least, this is not wimpy.

Ah, cool. This was pretty much my thought, too.

I'll have to mull over 9. I'm sure that, as you hint at, becoming a healthy 9 has to do with overcoming a sense of self-denial (especially in denying their anger), figuring out what they want, and asserting what they want.

Certain other types seem to have problems truly 'figuring out what they want' but not in 'asserting.'


What about 4? It seems that they are introspective and thus may have a good sense of what they want, but they may or may not actually wind up doing something about it. It may actually fit your definition of 'wimpiness' more, since they may have a clear picture of what they want but do not assert it.

 

[wolfy]

I've always thought the one descriptions sounded wimpy. 4 and phobic 6 read more emotionally volatile so don't sound as wimpy.

 

[Elfboy]

Ah, cool. This was pretty much my thought, too.
I'll have to mull over 9. I'm sure that, as you hint at, becoming a healthy 9 has to do with overcoming a sense of self-denial (especially in denying their anger), figuring out what they want, and asserting what they want.
Certain other types seem to have problems truly 'figuring out what they want' but not in 'asserting.'
What about 4? It seems that they are introspective and thus may have a good sense of what they want, but they may or may not actually wind up doing something about it.

4s tend to be wimpy because
- they are easily hurt and offended by trivial things and tend to make a scene about this (I have literally known a 4, I think she was INFJ, who got offended and stomped her foot on the ground because I said she looked good in pink, because she said it "implied I thought she was like a barbie doll when she is the total opposite" so I said "go fuck yourself. I'm not going to take the time to cater to your bizarre emotional insecurities. woman up!" everyone else thought I was being a jerk, but she more than deserved that for throwing a tantrum about me saying she looked good in pink.)
- they are in touch with their feelings, but often not their actual desires
- they are frequently extremely depressed, shame ridden and angry...that doesn't sound like someone who is achieving what they truly desire.
- that said, healthy 4s are fiery, charismatic and artistic geniuses. I think they're totally bad ass (case in point, Maria Callas. she is a DIVA!!! )

 

[Elfboy]

I've always thought the one descriptions sounded wimpy. 4 and phobic 6 read more emotionally volatile so don't sound as wimpy.

emotionally volatile is wimpy