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View Poll Results: What Enneagram Type Is Carl Jung?

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  1. #61
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Then likewise? Why do you assume that I chose to ignore that piece of information. I didn't, I just incorporated into my understanding of things which you disagree with. You believe that his statement in the television interview that can be taken in the literal most basic sense of understanding. I however see things differently.

    I'd suggest actually looking into things rather than you know, writing stuff off as stupid. Otherwise you'll just come across as selective with data.

    Anyhow, this is originally where I came across this person. Again, it's secondary information but it's claiming what Jung did.


    - http://intjforum.com/showthread.php?t=72268


    Haha. Yes, whatever you say. Not sure why you seem to be constantly wanting to turn things personal into an argument (even with mal) about who is wrong or right. I'm just presenting data and my own opinion, I already said a long time ago we'll just have to disagree with each other's interpretation.
    Looking into what things? I have been looking up to analytical psychology for few years and into MBTI. Nothing i have encountered even remotely suggests to what you said. Its just something you read on some forum written by some random guy not understanding how things work. What jung thought about typology before he wrote the 'psychological types' is irrelevant, its not something that got into the system of his typology. You seriously cant see the logic fail in that? . That post you quoted from INTJ forum is just some random guy making some illogical assumptions.

    Reply to this post with proper reasoning and we can continue:

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    First of all the two personalities wasnt a split personality. Personality no.1 was about ego and persona, conscious attitude and how one presents self to the world, personality no.2 was about the unconscious aspects of self, personal and collective.
    People often see tert/inferior to be the unconscious aspects of self, but in jungian model, tert and inferior are also(and more importantly) the gateways for unconscious(personal and collective) material.
    Jung viewed science as more congurent to his no.1 personality and humanities as more in line with his personality no.2.

    "It was only natural that jung would initially distrust the eros(feeling) component of his fantacy because emotion made his no.1 personality uncomfortable." ( http://ebookbrowse.com/personality-i...-pdf-d22221746 )

    Jung also had an habit of rationalizing some of his bit unethical behavior. Like his relationship with sabina spielberg(former patient of his who jung stopped charging and started fucking).

    Add the fact that he mentioned that he was always characterized by thinking. And remember that dom function developes first, this fact and the things mentioned above its clear that he was a thinker. He said that he wasnt particularily good with the reality = N. Had a definite problems with feeling = T. He had told it multiple times that he was an introvert. This would leave room for INTP and INTJ types, but he looked for patterns in the external world(religions(including buddhism and alchemy), cultures, myths, history, schizophrenics, neurotics, people with everyday problems, philosophers etc) to come up with theories, which he refined internally = INTP.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  2. #62
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    I wonder.



    What do you think is the integration side of type 5?
    8. What do you think is the integration side of 8?

    What MBTI type do you think freud was and how well do you think that type fitting to enneagram 5, how about to 8 or 3?
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  3. #63
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Only cry cuz cant argue against and ego cant accept failure
    I have already defeated your ad hom assertion that the MBTI stereotypes.

    But if you want to make this about "the other," which is just your Fe Inferior projecting its traits on me, I can assure you that at one time I saw Jung as an INTJ but my "ego" released its hold on that idea although I don't want to see Jung as either Fe or Fi auxilliary. But this required a lot of evidence from Jung's life.

    Now, why doesn't your ego consider all the evidence, not just the parts that it likes, and let go of this silly notion that Jung was an INTP?
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #64
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Looking into what things? I have been looking up to analytical psychology for few years and into MBTI. Nothing i have encountered even remotely suggests to what you said. Its just something you read on some forum written by some random guy not understanding how things work. What jung thought about typology before he wrote the 'psychological types' is irrelevant, its not something that got into the system of his typology. You seriously cant see the logic fail in that? . That post you quoted from INTJ forum is just some random guy making some illogical assumptions.

    Reply to this post with proper reasoning and we can continue:
    Yes, because everyone else who disagrees with you evidently doesn't understand how things work. They can't have studied Jung in equal amount of depth and come to a different conclusion. Honestly, I'm done with this: I don't think you even realize how you are coming across with your opinions.

    You can conclude my post that it's illogical and irrelevant. I don't mind. This will be my last post on this argument.

    I already addressed the stuff in the post below. I came to a different interpretation. That's the end of the story. I did however find the post about the personality one being aligned with science, while two with humanities interesting, but none of this discredits the idea that he could have been a dysfunctional INFJ (given his childhood). Regarding the whole "Capitalized by thinking" - I've already given my explanations for why an dysfunctional INFJs who is primarily focused on Ni-Ti could say that most of their life has been characterised by thinking (especially for male INFJs) and struggle with his feelings, which may be a more accurate representation of the individual than his surface behaviour. Of course, this doesn't agree with Jung's idea that the psyche is a combination of both but more along frued's idea that the unconscious is more of the true self.

    While the theory of active imagination does sound like it'd be Ne based. Stuff like Synchronicity in drawing meaningful conclusions from seemingly independent events is one of the standard stereotypes behind what Ni is. It's also the reason that INFJ individuals are sometimes dubbed as conspiracy theorists when unhealthy - The whole drawing meaningful interpretations from unrelated events. Meh.

  5. #65
    Member Ethanescence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    That doesn't indicate either Te or Ti. But he was very psychic and dreamed about his death months before it happened. He also dreamed about WWI months before it happened. These instances along with many others tell me that he was not an INTP. As psychically-inclined, that makes him an INFJ. And as with many INFJs he had the ability to draw on Ti, the logical systems-builder.
    Yeah, I don't think Myers ever did a statistical analysis of the MBTI of fortune tellers, to be honest. All INFJs are psychics? Jung was psychic? I really have no words.

    And both INTP and INFJ use Ti.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    I have already defeated your ad hom assertion that the MBTI stereotypes.

    But if you want to make this about "the other," which is just your Fe Inferior projecting its traits on me, I can assure you that at one time I saw Jung as an INTJ but my "ego" released its hold on that idea although I don't want to see Jung as either Fe or Fi auxilliary. But this required a lot of evidence from Jung's life.

    Now, why doesn't your ego consider all the evidence, not just the parts that it likes, and let go of this silly notion that Jung was an INTP?
    You know whats funny. I write alot of arguments against what you say, and you just pick one thing to reply to. For example this post

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You should stop reading some stereotypical MBTI descriptions. I have developed an uncanny insight to people after learning about psychology. Types with Ti/Fe feel(as in using feeling function) what other think, while Te/Fi think what others feel. So this stupid stereotype of INFJ doesent tell you anything real.

    This jung intuitively understanding people doesent seem to fit, he analyzed them throughout or used past experiences to dwell deeper into the other persons psyche.

    How do you explain jung that at one point of life had an stage where he stopping listening to what his patients were telling him to a large degree and used earlier experiences to gain an insight on them. Sounds much like being heavily under the influence of Si, doesent it?

    What makes you think that jung was so "psychic" in his nature?




    I have also looked into mystical experiences to understand the world before i got into psychology. For example the dream world of australian aboriginals, native american beliefs, buddhism, egyptians etc.

    This isnt something that INFJs do only. You using an argument "INFJ is like this and that" is highly flawed, because those things fit to other types aswell, especially to INTPs. For example this theory of mind thing is far more likely to be done by an INTP than INFJ, but naturally INFJs might do that also.

    About this INFJs being gentle and avoid hurting them thing, this is quite different from jung. He was not concerned about peoples feeling in general and was quite rude at times, naturally this wasnt the case with his patients, since he(like most sane people) see the vurnebility of people who have some issues with their minds.

    This INFJs showing up in areas where they can be creative and somewhat independant. This is also very true with INTP and i would say it to be true more often in INTPs than INFJs, also applies often to ENTPs and other types aswell.
    You just picked up me saying MBTI descriptions being stereotypes and ignored the rest. Jungs typology is about psychological functions, it examines the common factors in peoples cognition, this isnt stereotyping. MBTI descriptions on the other hand looks for traits are typical within the type, this is stereotyping, these common traits with the type that MBTI lists are evident in other types also.

    This sort of arguing from your side doesent lead anywhere.

    Also what do you think this harmony seeking pleasant to all INFJ would be saying things like this?
    " To say Jung panned the exhibit would be an understatement. His article assumed a harsh, dismissive, and abusive tone. It's grim conclusion was that Picasso's art amounted to nothing more than a manifestation of mental illness."

    Why do you think that i dont have much knowledge about jung and are making this assumption about his type based on too little information? You are the one being like "jung was all nice harmony seeking INFJ, because of (no reason given)", when in reality he was more like typical INTP giving harsh critique to people, like this picasso thing. Naturally he also had Fe, Ti clearly Ti was more differentiated, but thats no wonder, he said it himself that he was always characterized by thinking, even as a child, F types are not like this.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  7. #67
    Member Ethanescence's Avatar
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    INFJ Ni-Fe-Ti-Se
    INTP Ti-Ne-Si-Fe
    INTJ Ni-Te-Fi-Se

    1. Jung built his own complex internal system of thought and theory. This is clearly Ti. This rules out the Te of INTJ. That means he's either INTP or INFJ.

    2. INFJ and INTP share Ti and Fe.

    3. INFJ and INTP are different through Ni (INFJ)/Ne (INTP) and Si (INTP)/Se (INFJ).

    4. The Ni/Ne question is easily confused. Jung was clearly N, but I don't think we can rule out Ni or Ne without intense and lengthy discussion. It would be better to focus on the Se/Si distinction.

    5. Was Jung Se or Si?

    Si collects data in the present moment and compares it with past experiences. This process sometimes evokes the feelings associated with memory as if the subject were reliving it. Seeking to protect what is familiar, Si draws upon history to form goals and expectations about what will happen in the future.
    Se focuses on the experiences and sensations of the immediate, physical world. With an acute awareness of the present surroundings, it brings relevant facts and details to the forefront and may lead to spontaneous action.
    In Jung's writings, I don't think there's any support whatsoever for Se over Si. Even when there's a scarab beetle knocking against his office window (his patient just recounted a dream about a scarab bettle) he describes it as novel experience -- an example of synchronicity theory. That's not acute awareness of present surroundings, that's collecting data from the present moment and comparing it with past experiences.

    Aspects such as active imagination (engaging with the psyche and memories in an active manner) and his work with patients (he frequently backtracks to his childhood memories in order to make a point about the present situation) demonstrates a preference for Si.

    Si is clear in the extract below. Jung relies on it in order to solve his mental disturbances. I have bolded the clearly Si statements.

    Jung in Confrontations with the unconscious

    I lived as if under constant pressure. At times this became so strong that I suspected there was some psychic disturbance in myself. Therefore, I twice went over all the details of my entire life, with particular attention to childhood memories; for I thought there might be something in my past which I could not see and which might possibly be a cause for this disturbance. But this retrospection led to nothing but a fresh acknowledgment of my ignorance. Thereupon I said to myself, "Since I know nothing at all, I shall simply do whatever occurs to me." [Although this is a Se approach, the result is clearly Si] Thus I consciously submitted to the impulses of the unconscious.

    The first thing that came to the surface was a childhood memory from perhaps my tenth or eleventh year. At that time I had a spell of playing passionately with building blocks. [...]
    Additionally...

    If we also look at the dominance of the functions, Jung was primarily a thinker and system builder. In INTP Ti is dominant, while in INFJ Ti is tertiary. As Jung says that he struggles with his feelings, it makes sense his Fe would be inferior like an INTP, and not auxiliary like an INFJ. And although Jung's Si is not perfect (see extract above), he clearly uses his Sensing function more than his Feeling function.

    When Jung is confused as a Feeling type (INFJ), I put it down to a highly developed Fe inferior function (INTP). Which would make sense in someone so highly attuned to introspection and individuation. However, anyone who says Jung's Thinking, iNtuition or Sensing is less developed than his Feeling function has something amiss with their perspective.

  8. #68
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    Yes, because everyone else who disagrees with you evidently doesn't understand how things work. They can't have studied Jung in equal amount of depth and come to a different conclusion. Honestly, I'm done with this: I don't think you even realize how you are coming across with your opinions.

    You can conclude my post that it's illogical and irrelevant. I don't mind. This will be my last post on this argument.

    I already addressed the stuff in the post below. I came to a different interpretation. That's the end of the story. I did however find the post about the personality one being aligned with science, while two with humanities interesting, but none of this discredits the idea that he could have been a dysfunctional INFJ (given his childhood). Regarding the whole "Capitalized by thinking" - I've already given my explanations for why an dysfunctional INFJs who is primarily focused on Ni-Ti could say that most of their life has been characterised by thinking (especially for male INFJs) and struggle with his feelings, which may be a more accurate representation of the individual than his surface behaviour. Of course, this doesn't agree with Jung's idea that the psyche is a combination of both but more along frued's idea that the unconscious is more of the true self.

    While the theory of active imagination does sound like it'd be Ne based. Stuff like Synchronicity in drawing meaningful conclusions from seemingly independent events is one of the standard stereotypes behind what Ni is. It's also the reason that INFJ individuals are sometimes dubbed as conspiracy theorists when unhealthy - The whole drawing meaningful interpretations from unrelated events. Meh.
    But you see, if i notice that someones opinion is based on things that are clearly caused by lack of knowledge and false information, its natural for me to think that their opinion is wrong if it differs from mine. For example mal saying that jung was Ni type because of prophetic dreams, i knew that these things were not due to Ni, but is a general aspect of dreams. Him talking about jung fitting on the INFJ stereotype by giving all these quotes about INFJs being harmony seeking polite etc people and saw jung like that. Jung wasnt like that, he was rather rude in many situations, like this comment on picasso that i mentioned in last post. Jung when having a rough day and his friends wanting to talk to him, he was like grrr go away. But naturally apologized later, but that apologizing thing isnt an INFJ trait alone either, i personally do that too.

    What comes to Ni and conspiracy theories, its not just Ni types that are like that, INTPs are like that also. http://www.intpforum.com/showthread.php?t=10182

    If jung was an INFJ, meaning that he had a tert Ti. It doesent really fit with 'the reconciling third' and 'transcendent function', he said that he had been always characterized by thinking, but saw tert as being a product of clash of dom and inferior, thought that this would happen later in life, thought that dominant function developed first etc etc. There is a logical mistake in this tert Ti thing, it simply wont fit to the ideas that jung had about his typology and development of type. Not to mention that he saw the personality no.1 as being ego + persona and saw his personality no.1 as thinking. Now you could argue that thinking was part of his persona from early on, but then there is another mistake in logic, jung saw persona oriented extraverted, which would make him NiTe, again conflicting with the INFJ theory. Also he saw personality no.2 being the typological shadow side(tert/inferior) and saw his personality no.2 being a feeler, which intimidated his personality no.1..

    There is just too much logical conflicts in peoples argument that i cant take them seriously and its clear that these logical conflicts arise from lack of knowledge in many cases or aee based on misconceptions.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #69
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethanescence View Post
    ...
    And in addition to this resolving the conflict with Si, just saw tert as being the function that resolves conflict between dom and inferior. And he saw this as being part of self regulation of psyche.

    About the quote, i went through similar going through all the details of the past when i had a little comfortation with my shadow. Except that i aknowledged where the situation originated and concentrated on the things related to it. It also led me to nothing but fresh aknowledgment of my ignorance about the thing..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #70
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    You know whats funny. I write alot of arguments against what you say, and you just pick one thing to reply to. For example this post.
    And I'm sure your hand-waving my INFJ description was equally as unwelcome. You can't just wave away something that I wrote and then expect me to pay attention to your stuff.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

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