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View Poll Results: What Enneagram Type Is Carl Jung?

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  1. #31
    Senior Member Snow Turtle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    Funny because quite many people have attempted to find some proofs of him being Ni dom over several forums, but all failed, now you claim to have the proofs in some book that you dont quote. I couod bet that this has something to do with a newbie reading the book and thinking that subjective equals introverted or something like jung conforting alot of figures of collective unconscious and him saying elsewhere that Ni perceives archetypes..

    Why wont you give even one reason why you think he is Ni dom?
    I did mention the book. It was several pages back. "Beneath the mask" citing Jung in 1959. However upon closer examination, it appears to be based off his interview instead. The one where people constantly go on about how he must be INTP based on a vague description.

    Having said that... I'm curious as to how you interpret this sort of thing?

    “It is more interesting and relevant to ask how Jung identified himself on his own typology.
    I have direct evidence on this point. I had a long talk with Jung at his home in Kusnacht on the morning of December 18th, 1959. I was aged 21, a Fellow of the Bollingen Foundation, and had been corresponding with Jung since 1957.
    I said, innocently, and in passing, “I must be what you call a thinking type.” He immediately broke in and said. “No you are an introverted intuitive type” and then he added, “just like me”. This meant, of course, that I could read Jung knowing that his prejudice coincided with mine.”
    Now... This isn't anything brand new. While reading some of the older threads on this forum. It's been mentioned before. Given that he has already made the distinction between extroverted intuition and introverted intuition. His words here can't really be confused as such surely?

    Why wont you give even one reason why you think he is Ni dom?
    I have given my own views already. You however believe they come from Ne hence I just agreed to disagree.
    Honestly, I don't see much point in arguing whether his ideas were derived from self-reflection or generated from observations from his environment. Like I said, it's not a debate of Ni or Ne. Those sort of arguments have existed for so long even on INFPg, and given that it's still confused today, it's the sort of thing that goes on forever.

  2. #32
    Member Ethanescence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kai View Post
    I have given my own views already. You however believe they come from Ne hence I just agreed to disagree.
    Honestly, I don't see much point in arguing whether his ideas were derived from self-reflection or generated from observations from his environment. Like I said, it's not a debate of Ni or Ne. Those sort of arguments have existed for so long even on INFPg, and given that it's still confused today, it's the sort of thing that goes on forever.
    From what I've read of Jung's works his natural preference seems to be for extroverted intuition. His theories of active imagination are pretty much testament to this. I tend to believe that Jung was INTP (Ne). Not INTJ.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTP View Post
    His intuition was clearly extraverted. Its obvious when you study his work and look at where/how he came up with majority of his ideas.
    I agree with this.

    Jung communicates strongly with his iNtuition. This is seen in his writings, his interviews, and his transcripts with patients. He uses global language, metaphors, and readily shares ideas and theories. That's Ne in action.

    Individuals tend to communicate to the outside world with whatever functions are extraverted. Jung did not communicate with Te/Se as INTJs do, but with Ne/Fe. His communicated thoughts were highly associative and intertextual, not particularly logical or sequential or concerned with the immediate surroundings.

    This is a discussion of the differences between Ne and Ni. Jung was clearly a long-term system builder, a general trend that is associated with Ni. But that doesn't rule out Ne. The bracketed information is my own clarification:

    Ne is not a long-term system builder [as opposed to Ni]. This is a true statement. In fact, I believe there are only 4 types that are long-term system builders that use Ne. Those are ENTPs, INTPs, ENFPs, and INFPs [each to a different degree, see below]. And to use the term “build” is somewhat a misnomer. Often an Ne/Ji user will stumble upon a long-term system or simply have an idea once the Ne/Ji has gathered enough information. In many ways, the long-term systems that Ne/Ji users might form can be superior to that of an Ni user, but most of the time they will not. The breadth of knowledge that an Ne user will gather brings new perspective to the systems being built, and it may present an angle that Ni would not have seen as relevant. However, this is somewhat rare. However, in terms of systems that already exist, Ne will almost always see what Ni does not.
    Why Ne > Si (INTP, ENTP, INFP, and ENFP) can be long-term system builders and not Si > Ne (ISTJ, ISFJ, and ESFJ and ESTJ) is an irrelevant question and a generalization. However this quote shows that particular relationships between functions leads to different sorts of expressions.

    ENTP and ENFP types seem to keep their Ne mostly unadulterated. However, when Ne and Si are developed close together (as in next-door auxiliary and tertiary functions) that's where the water gets cloudy and Ne loses its already indistinct shape. In relation to the Ne/Ni confusion, this applies to INFP and INTP types.

    Ne in INFP and INTP could be confused with Ni because of its close development with Si. It seems when Ne and Si are developed closely (and iNtution is more pronounced) they seem to blend into a faux kind of Ni. The kind of Ni that would show up in individuals who have Ni as an unadulterated function (INFJs and INTJs). That's probably why INFPs and INTJs are deeply interested in dreams, symbols, archetypes, and the unconscious - typically Ni qualities.

    These are my own thoughts, anyway. If any of this doesn't make sense I can clarify my opinion further.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    @Ethanescence "The breadth of knowledge that an Ne user will gather brings new perspective to the systems being built, and it may present an angle that Ni would not have seen as relevant. However, this is somewhat rare. However, in terms of systems that already exist, Ne will almost always see what Ni does not." Such as? For example, a novel application for the Ni system. But Ni requires the judgment of Ti in order to create a system, which I take to be an intellectual construct.

    There is no doubt that Jung, with great effort, attempted to build an intellectual construct, hazy as it is in terms of clarity. But in the end you seem to become lost in your own analysis. Because I expected to see some justification why "that doesn't rule out Ne." Apparently, with JFA anything goes, as it is flexible enough to assert any postulates while at the same time proving none of them or at least leaving a shadow of doubt behind.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
    “Culture?” says Paul McCartney. “This isn't culture. It's just a good laugh.”

  4. #34
    Member Ethanescence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    @Ethanescence "The breadth of knowledge that an Ne user will gather brings new perspective to the systems being built, and it may present an angle that Ni would not have seen as relevant. However, this is somewhat rare. However, in terms of systems that already exist, Ne will almost always see what Ni does not." Such as? For example, a novel application for the Ni system. But Ni requires the judgment of Ti in order to create a system, which I take to be an intellectual construct.
    I can't extend too much upon the quote itself, since they aren't my own ideas. It's just something I found on another forum. I don't agree with all the generalizations contained in it, but it seemed to highlight that Ne/Ni can be confused when considered in isolation.

    This doesn't mean that there can't be any clear type for Jung. Solely basing an analysis of Jung's MBTI on Ni/Ne won't work out, and you have to look at other factors.

    I pointed out communication style as one of these other factors (Ne/Fe for Jung) which coincides with INTP. And additionally, flowing on from your link with Ti with creating systems: INTPs introvert thinking (Ti), while INTJs extravert thinking (Te).

    All these other factors point to Jung being INTP. The Ni/Ne issue then becomes a moot point. You can't go "Jung loved symbolism, archetypes, and the unconscious. That means Ni. And he's introverted and intuitive and made decisions based on thoughts and ideas. Clearly INT." And add them all together and choose INTJ because it has Ni. I'm sure many have done this in the past when typing Jung. It ends up being fallacious.

  5. #35
    Senior Member Mal12345's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ethanescence View Post
    I can't extend too much upon the quote itself, since they aren't my own ideas. It's just something I found on another forum. I don't agree with all the generalizations contained in it, but it seemed to highlight that Ne/Ni can be confused when considered in isolation.

    This doesn't mean that there can't be any clear type for Jung. Solely basing an analysis of Jung's MBTI on Ni/Ne won't work out, and you have to look at other factors.

    I pointed out communication style as one of these other factors (Ne/Fe for Jung) which coincides with INTP. And additionally, flowing on from your link with Ti with creating systems: INTPs introvert thinking (Ti), while INTJs extravert thinking (Te).

    All these other factors point to Jung being INTP. The Ni/Ne issue then becomes a moot point. You can't just go "Jung loved symbolism, archetypes, and the unconscious. That means Ni. And he's introverted and intuitive and made decisions based on thoughts and ideas. Clearly INT." And add them all together and choose INTJ because it as Ni. I'm sure many have done this in the past when typing Jung. It ends up being fallacious.
    At least we have Jung himself saying he's the Ni. That's got to count for something.

    Of course Ti is a system-builder. But that wasn't the goal of Jung's writing which was to help psychoanalysts practice therapy on their patients - Fe, not Te.
    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth." Mike Tyson
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  6. #36
    Member Ethanescence's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    At least we have Jung himself saying he's the Ni. That's got to count for something.

    Of course Ti is a system-builder. But that wasn't the goal of Jung's writing which was to help psychoanalysts practice therapy on their patients - Fe, not Te.
    Jung himself? Or someone who supposedly spoke to Jung, and is paraphrasing what he thought Jung said? There's no actual reference for that claim (that I've seen). I'd rather go off what Jung actually said or wrote, not what other people say he did.

    Also, I don't know what you mean by Fe not Te. INTPs use Fe, INTJs don't.

  7. #37
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mal12345 View Post
    At least we have Jung himself saying he's the Ni.
    Meh, in an 1959 interview (3 years before his death) he describes himself as being "capitalized by thinking" & "having a great deal of intuition" as well as "having a great difficulty with feeling" and being "at variance with the reality of things". Capitalized implies it's dominant. However, Jung didn't think type was static throughout life either....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

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  8. #38
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    @mal12345 & @Kai
    First of all the two personalities wasnt a split personality. Personality no.1 was about ego and persona, conscious attitude and how one presents self to the world, personality no.2 was about the unconscious aspects of self, personal and collective.
    People often see tert/inferior to be the unconscious aspects of self, but in jungian model, tert and inferior are also(and more importantly) the gateways for unconscious(personal and collective) material.
    Jung viewed science as more congurent to his no.1 personality and humanities as more in line with his personality no.2.

    "It was only natural that jung would initially distrust the eros(feeling) component of his fantacy because emotion made his no.1 personality uncomfortable." ( http://ebookbrowse.com/personality-i...-pdf-d22221746 )

    Jung also had an habit of rationalizing some of his bit unethical behavior. Like his relationship with sabina spielberg(former patient of his who jung stopped charging and started fucking).

    Add the fact that he mentioned that he was always characterized by thinking. And remember that dom function developes first, this fact and the things mentioned above its clear that he was a thinker. He said that he wasnt particularily good with the reality = N. Had a definite problems with feeling = T. He had told it multiple times that he was an introvert. This would leave room for INTP and INTJ types, but he looked for patterns in the external world(religions(including buddhism and alchemy), cultures, myths, history, schizophrenics, neurotics, people with everyday problems, philosophers etc) to come up with theories, which he refined internally = INTP.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  9. #39
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Meh, in an 1959 interview (3 years before his death) he describes himself as being "capitalized by thinking" & "having a great deal of intuition" as well as "having a great difficulty with feeling" and being "at variance with the reality of things". Capitalized implies it's dominant. However, Jung didn't think type was static throughout life either....
    Not to mention that he thought his words very carefully and said that this is all the information you need to determine his type.
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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  10. #40
    Senior Member INTP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rail Tracer View Post
    Yes.

    Who do you take the person who Jung studied with early on as? Jung did a bit of study with Freud but broke off in a different direction while Freud continued onto his.... studies.

    That said, Freud thought Jung would continue with his work. Obviously, he continued on but not-in-a-so "Freudian way."

    It is like the difference between studying Psychology and Humanism. Both are blanket terms and both can overlap one another. However, Humanism is an even bigger blanket term. Freud was more Psychology while Jung was more Humanist.
    Freud was really judgmental and stubborn person, really much thinking about his image, wanted to be in control of everything and things had to be done just as he said and thought. Doesent sound much like 5 to me..

    Jung didnt study with freud from the early on, jung had already started his career and wrote book before he met freud. Jung got interested about freuds dream analysis and started exchanging letters with him. Eventually jung ended up being the chairman of psychoanalytical(freudian) association, but got kicked out because jung disagreed with freud on libido being purely sexual and saw it more as general mental energy..
    "Where wisdom reigns, there is no conflict between thinking and feeling."
    — C.G. Jung

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