User Tag List

View Poll Results: What's Better - Tritype or wings?

Voters
37. You may not vote on this poll
  • Wings

    14 37.84%
  • Tritype

    11 29.73%
  • Neither is better than the other

    12 32.43%
  • Other (explain)

    1 2.70%
Multiple Choice Poll.
First 23456 Last

Results 31 to 40 of 84

  1. #31
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,896

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I've read a lot of Palmer, Riso-Hudson, and the Fauvre's. I obviously disagree with the latter on tritypes but the other thoughts are all well and good.

    I do not think relating Tritypes to functions is accurate at all. That you'd do so is, I think, indicative of a poor understanding of what an enneagram type is and what it describes about your personality. A proper analogue to tritype in MBTI would be something like INTP>ESTP>ISFP, or what have you, and you'd arbitrarily "switch" from type to type as you cycled through stressful situations. I think tritype is just born out of desire to reduce every behavior, every characteristic to a typological source, and apparently the creators never wondered whether they even should. Enneagram isn't just a different color hat you pop on to your head to help you deal with certain situations, it's a complete fixation that is created out of a pathological need, and "behavior" flows from that. I think tritype adds messiness and even strips power from the enneagram as a good model.

    I understand that you think tritype fits you better, but like I said that's to be expected when all of a sudden you can be whatever type whenever you want. I can't help but notice, however, your tritype is conveniently your type, its disintegration point, and then the type it is can be commonly confused for [8].
    Actually I do not have a poor understanding at all. The thinking is not so black and white. This is a good example of a Ti user thinking about a Te user with Ni dominant as having sloppy thinking. The question is wheter or not we have only one fixation. I understand the comment about integration/disintigration. Will have to think about that.

    I meant Palmer and not Fisher obviously. Too many Helen's.

    Edit: if there is evidence presented to the contrary as to why tritype isnt valid then my views are open to changing. I have only been studying this stuff for about a year. I used to think Enneagram was all BS.Ibhave spent a fair amount of time on it over the last year though.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  2. #32
    garbage
    Guest

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Lady X View Post
    is everyone an entp now? i must have missed something
    Yes, it's because more and more of the site's members have gone through the individuation process and have found their true, ideal selves (ENTPs).

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    The question is wheter or not we have only one fixation.
    This is the same question that I've been asking myself. If we can assume that we've got one and only one fixation and that that one fixation does explain one's thought patterns, then it makes sense to delve deep into that one fixation. Otherwise, not so much.

    If an 8 has a connection to 5, tritype offers an explanation (whether or not it's a good one); so does the fact that 5 is in the direction of disintegration for the 8. It's akin to explaining that a particular ENTP's strong Fi as either a weak Thinking preference or because Fi is a right-brained alternative to Ti.

    So, should we choose the theoretically elegant explanation ("everyone identifies strongly with one type and one type only, but the theory can explain connections to other types because ...") or the surface-level, expedient one ("screw it, one can identify with more than one type")?


    I'll leave the following here for discussion and critique/agreement, from this thing:
    Ultimately, the goal is for each of us to "move around" the Enneagram, integrating what each type symbolizes and acquiring the healthy potentials of all the types. The ideal is to become a balanced, fully functioning person who can draw on the power (or from the Latin, "virtue") of each as needed.

  3. #33
    Secret Sex Freak Hazashin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sx/sp
    Socionics
    INFj
    Posts
    1,157

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Do wings fit you better or do you think Tritype is a better representation of who you are?
    I think personally, for me, I think both can be equally clarifying of subtle differences between two people of the same types (the same goes for instinctual variant). Yes, it's more complicated that way, but I think in general it is more reasonable to presume that there are more variations of types because not almost no one fits one particular type. I'm not too well-versed in tritype, but I think offers a reasonable explanation: that each of us have three basic emotions that drive us -- fear, anger, and shame -- and we each have a different way of handling them and a different way of where it is directed. The core type is the most important, as it is the main driving force of your personality, but tritype (theoretically) explains why people of the same core type react differently when they are engaging in the other aspects of their personality, such as the other two emotions your core type does not deal with, and which two emotions hold closest to your ego. I don't think tritype is your first, second, and third type, per se, I just think they react differently with the core type than people of the same core type with different tritypes.

    As for wing, I think it is similar to tritype, only it correlates purely with your core type. You could view them as two different orientations of your core type. They determine where your core focus is directed. For example, if you are a 6, like myself, your primary concern is having security and being with support. A 6w5 would direct their concern for security more towards being capable for the world (5) and their concern for support more towards their own minds (5), and a 6w7 would direct their concern for security more towards being content (7) and their concern for support more towards things that will make them more secure by giving them some sort of contentment (7). I hope I'm saying that right...

    That being said, I don't follow tritype or wings religiously (although I think wings offer the more simplistic variation and thus I use it more), or even typology in general (though that is not to say that I like discussing it and theorizing about it), for that matter (though to a lesser degree; I think MBTI and Enneagram have the most merit). I just use it when I can.

    So I guess you could say my opinion is that I view them both as equally neutral: I don't think they're BS, per se, but I can take 'em or leave 'em.

    Other things that I think theoretically affect your personality (within the defined theories) are: levels of health with an Enneatype core type and dominant-tertiary loops in MBTI.
    MBTI: INFP
    Enneagram: 6w7, phobic
    Tritype: 6-9-2
    Instinctual Variant: Sx/Sp
    Temperament: Pure Supine
    D&D Alignment: Neutral Good
    Political Stance: Solid Liberal
    Religious Views: Atheist

    Fi > Ne > Ti > Fe > Se > Si > Te > Ni

    "Forgiveness means letting go of the past." ~ Gerald Jampolsky
    "I am justice!" ~ Light Yagami, Death Note
    "The choices people make tell you a lot about a person, but the reasons [...] tell you even more." ~ Albus Dumbledore (paraphrased)

    Tatiana ♥

  4. #34
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    Where is anything about tri type stated in any books? Everything that I've seen has basically just been speculation on the internet and theorycraft by amateurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Can you elaborate on tritypes explained within enneagram type? Also I thought Katherine studied with Naranjo.
    Not sure who Katherine is, and it's just the fact that Naranjo's descriptions go very deep.

    I'll give an example of why I'd say you can just describe yourself using your base enneagram type. I used to say that my tritype was 9w8-6w5 (CP)-2w3 for the record.

    After reading Naranjo's descriptions I realized how really different all of the types are, and how it's just ridiculous to say that you can have three of those types in them. I'd even go so far as to say that anyone who wants to consider themselves relatively decent with the enneagram should read Naranjo's material... it's just really that important.

    So say that I thought my tritype was 9w8-6w5-2w3. I thought that I was different from a lot of 9s; that I had a bit more of an aggressive edge to me, and I feel extremely vulnerable to control. I thought that having counterphobic 6w5 as my "second" type would justify this. But I'm a sexual/self pres 9w8, and I think that a lot of typical 9 descriptions apply to 9w1s. My sexual first plus 8 wing make the 9s desire to merge with another manifest in a way that I put myself out there, reveal who I really am, in order to find a real mate or a real friend. I didn't used to be this way, it's something that I eventually grew into after my teenage years. It only really happens when I'm not stressed, when I get in a bad spot I focus more on being without inner conflict and can't focus really so much on other people and connecting in that way. I have issues with being controlled and with control in general, but I don't have a problem with authority specifically. I also don't feel the need to attach myself to an authority figure of some sort or fight against them to feel like a better person... these supposed "6" traits that would manifest in me were just justified by other factors in the enneagram. The manifestation may have been a little similar, but the motivation behind them was not at all similar. So having 6 as apart of my core motivation is just really ridiculous. I honestly don't relate to any of the head type descriptions, but in some of my behavior I suppose I CAN act like a counter phobic 6; gauging reactions, opposing people, but this is just so that I know who I'm dealing with, I want to know who people REALLY are. It's basically my sx manifesting I'd say.

    And after realizing this, sx and 9 are pretty much conflicting, and I'd say sx variant 9s are the rarest of the 3.

    As for the type 2 stuff, it was once again based on my behavior; and not on the core motivations. Like with the head types the heart types just really are not me at all... I honestly had a hard time really finding what my heart type could have been. The only thing I really knew when I was trying to investigate it was that I was definitely not any way shape or form of 4. I identified with 2 out of all of the heart types because I do like to randomly help people sometimes, and I tend to be more concerned with what other people want to do. But these are all 9 traits, and I do these things out of wanting to keep the peace. I don't honestly act the way a 2 would at all period... and despite my saying the enneagram is about motivations/skewed perception of reality and not behavior, behavior is the only real valid way of using tritype (so doesn't that defeat the purpose?). And said behavior is just explained by your base type.

    But I don't honestly feel any pull from any of the heart types with the exception of 3, because that's obviously my integration point. Yet at the same time I don't really feel any pull toward ambition or being the best at anything, and I don't really consciously feel useless at a person (that just seems like a weird, pointless way to approach life).

    One explanation of tritypes I've seen is that people justify them based on integration points. This leaves the 3-6-9 triad to only have tritypes within those three; yet you see plenty of people say that they are 6-8-4 (triple reactive, common tritype for a counter phobic 6, even though these supposed 8 and 4 traits are just apart of being a counter phobic 6); or 3-5-8 (hurr durr I'm a 3 and I consider myself good with logic and logical systems, I have very specific interests, and I'm also aggressive too! Don't people realize that these are just apart of being a 3?).

    People have also said that you could perhaps have a tritype of say 6-7-5; that it doesn't matter whether you have one of each of the triads in your tritype. Or even something like 4-7-5. You have to realize how insanely contradictory having any two types within the same triad in your tritype would be... 5s and 7s literally have opposite problems for example. There are just too many inconsistencies, and I can only really say that these are all based off of behavior and not what the enneagram is really about.

    The only way I justified tritype's existence was that I understood that types are made up of thinking, feeling, and instincts in some order. Like for 5s for example, they are thinking>feeling>instincts. So they could logically have a tritype of say 5-4-9... right? How about these three types are all withdrawn types and are similar in that way. Also these on the surface traits of 4s and 9s are just shared 5 traits...

    Also how would that work for 3, 6, and 9? 3s are Instincts=Thinking>Feeling for example. This would imply you would have to have two equal types; which is again ridiculous.

    I guarantee you 100% that if you just look and see, for you highlander for example, how your 6-8-4 tritype is just explained by being a counterphobic 6. Or that these supposed tritype patterns are explained by patterns of dis/integration and the instincts.

    I can't really explain this any more in depth. People are trying to make the enneagram more than it is and just miss the point.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  5. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/so
    Socionics
    IEI
    Posts
    2,841

    Default

    Both work for me. Honestly I don't favor one over the other given that 1. Different enneagram authors seem to have different versions of the same theory, which by extension can be interpreted into tri-type theory depending on the specific author (like how tri-type works with Riso-Hudson but doesn't make sense with Navanjo), 2. Niether theory is inherently true in being a valid model of real human psychology due to a lack of scientific evidence, and 3. Each theory can help different people understand themselves of others, so what's important isn't what makes complete sense (niether really do) but rather what works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thinkist View Post
    Has anyone ever heard of unconventional wings, such as 9w5 for an Enneatype? They're about as messy (or interesting and "useful") as tritypes and plain ol' wings.
    I have entertained this idea; it would certainly make logical sense, in addition to ridding the numerological of the system.

    Recently it occured to me that the Enneagram can be viewed as 9 dichotomies with several temperaments known as triads.
    That would be called a triple trichotomy.

  6. #36
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,896

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by bologna View Post
    If we can assume that we've got one and only one fixation and that that one fixation does explain one's thought patterns, then it makes sense to delve deep into that one fixation. Otherwise, not so much.

    If an 8 has a connection to 5, tritype offers an explanation (whether or not it's a good one); so does the fact that 5 is in the direction of disintegration for the 8. It's akin to explaining that a particular ENTP's strong Fi as either a weak Thinking preference or because Fi is a right-brained alternative to Ti.

    So, should we choose the theoretically elegant explanation ("everyone identifies strongly with one type and one type only, but the theory can explain connections to other types because ...") or the surface-level, expedient one ("screw it, one can identify with more than one type")?

    l leave the following here for discussion and critique/agreement, from this thing:
    Once I started diving more deeply into the fixations, the power of the Enneagram really started to take hold for me. I could see the significant practical value in it in terms of understanding yourself and others and what might be holding you and others back. It was a bit of a revelation. Whether or not there is one fixation or a primary fixation and a couple of lesser ones doesn't seem to make a difference to me though. The dominant/primary one would be the most important one to focus on in either case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    The core type is the most important, as it is the main driving force of your personality, but tritype (theoretically) explains why people of the same core type react differently when they are engaging in the other aspects of their personality, such as the other two emotions your core type does not deal with, and which two emotions hold closest to your ego. I don't think tritype is your first, second, and third type, per se, I just think they react differently with the core type than people of the same core type with different tritypes.

    As for wing, I think it is similar to tritype, only it correlates purely with your core type. You could view them as two different orientations of your core type. They determine where your core focus is directed. For example, if you are a 6, like myself, your primary concern is having security and being with support. A 6w5 would direct their concern for security more towards being capable for the world (5) and their concern for support more towards their own minds (5), and a 6w7 would direct their concern for security more towards being content (7) and their concern for support more towards things that will make them more secure by giving them some sort of contentment (7). I hope I'm saying that right...

    That being said, I don't follow tritype or wings religiously (although I think wings offer the more simplistic variation and thus I use it more), or even typology in general (though that is not to say that I like discussing it and theorizing about it), for that matter (though to a lesser degree; I think MBTI and Enneagram have the most merit). I just use it when I can.
    This might be a simplistic way of understanding it but the analogy I have for wings is that the Enneagram circle is like a compass. It seems to me that you have a "compass pointer" on the circle which represents your type. You might be a 7 but your compass pointer on the enneagram circle is not exactly on 7 but towards 8 or 6 in some degree (e.g. you are not pointing directly North but and between North and East - more North than East for example). The degree to which your compass pointer is closer to that other number affects how strong your wing is. If you are straight on 7, they you have little to no wing. It's not clear to me what would happen if you were exactly or almost exactly between a 7 and an 8 however. That's one of the questions I have about wings. I don't believe I have much of a wing because while I do identify with the 6 descriptions very well, I do not identify so much with the 6w7 or 6w5 descriptions. So with respect to me personally, either those descriptions are A) Not very good or B) I don't have much of a wing. Maybe they work for 90% of the population however and I'm just an exception.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hazashin View Post
    Other things that I think theoretically affect your personality (within the defined theories) are: levels of health with an Enneatype core type and dominant-tertiary loops in MBTI.
    From a "health" or balance perspective, I think you're right that those two things are really important. The other thing that seems important is that some individuals have more frequent eruptions of the inferior than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post
    Where is anything about tri type stated in any books? Everything that I've seen has basically just been speculation on the internet and theorycraft by amateurs.

    Not sure who Katherine is, and it's just the fact that Naranjo's descriptions go very deep.
    Katherine Chernick Fauvre is the person who invented Tritypes. She and her husband have published a number of booklets about the stuff. They are not at the same level of professionalism as some of the other books on Enneagram but that is the only authoritative content that I've been able to find and I have looked. She's actually the person who tested me though it was more for primary Enneagram type and not Tritype. I found her to have a great deal of practical knowledge about Enneagram. It was most enlightening. She's been an Enneagram practitioner/consultant for a number of years. This link explains the history of it.

    I will say that that where every other online assessment I took yielded the wrong result (said 8), Fauvre's online Enneacard assessment was actually correct (said 6). That was confirmed after the one on one assessment with her (it took over an hour). After understanding it and delving into it more deeply, I do completely agree with the result. 6 is not the easiest Enneagram type to understand.

    I'll have to look at Naranjo's stuff because I have not read any of it. Can you recommend something in particular?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlackCat View Post

    As for the type 2 stuff, it was once again based on my behavior; and not on the core motivations.

    .........

    One explanation of tritypes I've seen is that people justify them based on integration points. This leaves the 3-6-9 triad to only have tritypes within those three; yet you see plenty of people say that they are 6-8-4 (triple reactive, common tritype for a counter phobic 6, even though these supposed 8 and 4 traits are just apart of being a counter phobic 6); or 3-5-8 (hurr durr I'm a 3 and I consider myself good with logic and logical systems, I have very specific interests, and I'm also aggressive too! Don't people realize that these are just apart of being a 3?).

    People have also said that you could perhaps have a tritype of say 6-7-5; that it doesn't matter whether you have one of each of the triads in your tritype. Or even something like 4-7-5. You have to realize how insanely contradictory having any two types within the same triad in your tritype would be... 5s and 7s literally have opposite problems for example. There are just too many inconsistencies, and I can only really say that these are all based off of behavior and not what the enneagram is really about.

    The only way I justified tritype's existence was that I understood that types are made up of thinking, feeling, and instincts in some order. Like for 5s for example, they are thinking>feeling>instincts. So they could logically have a tritype of say 5-4-9... right? How about these three types are all withdrawn types and are similar in that way. Also these on the surface traits of 4s and 9s are just shared 5 traits...

    Also how would that work for 3, 6, and 9? 3s are Instincts=Thinking>Feeling for example. This would imply you would have to have two equal types; which is again ridiculous.

    I guarantee you 100% that if you just look and see, for you highlander for example, how your 6-8-4 tritype is just explained by being a counterphobic 6. Or that these supposed tritype patterns are explained by patterns of dis/integration and the instincts.

    I can't really explain this any more in depth. People are trying to make the enneagram more than it is and just miss the point.
    I know you've investigated this a great deal more than I have. Jock's and your points on the dis/integration points and counterphobic 6 (which looks like 8) are quite reasonable. Instinctual subtype does add a lot to the equation. I think I gravitated towards tritype because the wings didn't work for me personally.

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  7. #37
    Shaman BlackCat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    ESFP
    Enneagram
    9w8 sx/sp
    Socionics
    SEE Fi
    Posts
    7,004

    Default

    Will respond in the morning; but I had NO idea that you had had such an experience with Katherine herself! That's pretty cool. Also my bad for not noticing that you were 6-3-8, I could have sworn it was 684.
    () 9w8-3w4-7w6 tritype.

    sCueI (primary Inquisition)

  8. #38
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    1,557

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I'll have to look at Naranjo's stuff because I have not read any of it. Can you recommend something in particular?
    This is essential reading for anyone who wants to take the enneagram seriously, it paints a deliciously deep portrait of each type and digs deeper than anything else I've read:


    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Character-Neurosis-Integrative-Claudio-Naranjo/dp/0895560666
    Hello

  9. #39
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    MBTI
    INTJ
    Enneagram
    6w5 sx/sp
    Socionics
    ILI Ni
    Posts
    17,896

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by VagrantFarce View Post
    This is essential reading for anyone who wants to take the enneagram seriously, it paints a deliciously deep portrait of each type and digs deeper than anything else I've read:


    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Character-Neurosis-Integrative-Claudio-Naranjo/dp/0895560666
    Ordered

    Please provide feedback on my Nohari and Johari Window by clicking here: Nohari/Johari

    Tri-type 639

  10. #40
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    8,193

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    Actually I do not have a poor understanding at all. The thinking is not so black and white. This is a good example of a Ti user thinking about a Te user with Ni dominant as having sloppy thinking. The question is wheter or not we have only one fixation. I understand the comment about integration/disintigration. Will have to think about that.

    I meant Palmer and not Fisher obviously. Too many Helen's.

    Edit: if there is evidence presented to the contrary as to why tritype isnt valid then my views are open to changing. I have only been studying this stuff for about a year. I used to think Enneagram was all BS.Ibhave spent a fair amount of time on it over the last year though.
    @BlackCat explained it far better than I did, but generally when people look to tritype for further predictive power it's because they're focusing a lot on the descriptions and the characteristics rather than the core motivations to the types. However in order to provide better descriptive power, it sacrifices the real meaning of an enneagram type in the first place. Really all there is to it.

    I certainly found tritype interesting at first, but thought it just too intellectually flimsy and that it eroded some of enneagram's integrity in the first place. That's not to say it could never be adapted or developed a little differently in order to be useful though.

    It's interesting you don't identify with an adjacent wing however. Typically they do a good job in focusing the core fixation. Is it more you don't identify with either, or that they're equal so you can't choose?



Similar Threads

  1. What is better - cardio or weights?
    By danseen in forum Health and Fitness
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 05-17-2014, 06:02 AM
  2. Enneagram: wings vs tritype
    By gromit in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 08-08-2013, 12:34 PM
  3. What's better: Reason or Evidence?
    By RaptorWizard in forum Philosophy and Spirituality
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-01-2013, 11:27 PM
  4. Replies: 20
    Last Post: 02-11-2013, 11:56 AM
  5. How do you figure what Enneagram wing you are?
    By Sniffles in forum Enneagram
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 11-16-2008, 11:10 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO