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  1. #1
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Default Enneagram is NOT about motivation

    enneagram is a lens that distorts the way that we view reality. in other words, your enneagram describes why and how you are prone to be delusional. knowledge of the enneagram and integration allow us to "lift the veil" so to speak and begin to view the world clearly.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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    Motivation: Dark Worker
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    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  2. #2
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    enneagram is a lens that distorts the way that we view reality. in other words, your enneagram describes why and how you are prone to be delusional. knowledge of the enneagram and integration allow us to "lift the veil" so to speak and begin to view the world clearly.
    Hell, dude, do you read in my mind or something. It's exactly what I wanted to say and exactly the title that I imagined for the thread that i procrastinated to create.

    I agree with your point obviously. I hope people here will undestand that Enneagram is NOT about motivations.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  3. #3
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Hell, dude, do you read in my mind or something. It's exactly what I wanted to say and exactly the title that I imagined for the thread that i procrastinated to create.

    I agree with your point obviously. I hope people here will undestand that Enneagram is NOT about motivations.
    this is why I mistyped as an 8 for so long, if going by sheer motivation, the order of my enneagram type would be
    8>7>4>6>9>1>5>3>2
    but when I dug deeper, this does not sound like me AT ALL.

    Naranjo, in Character and Neurosis:

    Ennea-Type VIII: "Sadistic Character and Lust"
    Lust is.. a kinship to indolence... an attempt to compensate for a hidden lack of aliveness.


    "Anti social personality disorder"
    "phallic narcissistic"
    disobedient and defiant
    "moral anesthesia"

    ... guiltlessness, incapacity of object love, impulsivity, emotional shallowness

    concealed sadistic characteristics

    exploitative orientation

    "does not expect to receive things from others as gifts, but to take them away from others by force or cunning"

    He describes the most unhealthy 8s as anti-social personalities:
    hostile affectivity, assertive self-image, interpersonal vindictiveness, malevolent projection...

    "the need for vindictive triumph"

    "He is convinced that everyone at the bottom is malevolent and crooked, that friendly gestures are hypocritical... regard everyone with distrust"

    He quotes Horney on a "lusty person" (8):

    "He is openly arrogant, often rude and offensive, although sometime this is covered with a thin veneer of civil politeness. In subtle and gross ways with or without realizing it, he humiliates others and exploits them. He may use women for the satisfaction of his sexual needs with utter disregard for their feelings....uses people as a means to an end......maintains contacts exclusively on the basis of their serving his needs for triumph....as stepping stones in his career....utter disregard of others' needs...

    contemptuous disregard for others...intimidating others into a subdued appeasement...

    "This absence of sympathy has many causes, lying in his hostility towards others and in his lacking sympathy for himself. But what contributes most to his callousness toward others is the envy of them. It is a bitter envy --not for this for that particular asset, but pervasive--and stems from his feeling excluded from life in general....
    lust may be seen as repressed envy


    Now in Naranjo's own description of type 8:

    The revenge which is present in ennea-type VIII is a long term one... in response to the pain, humiliation and impotence felt in early childhood.

    "a manifestation of vindictive punitiveness"

    "power seeking", "putting others down", "disdain and scorn for others"

    Their seductiveness, bragging, and arrogant claims are consciously manipulative; they are geared to gaining influence and elevation in the power and dominance hierarchy.

    ...to compensate for feelings of guilt, shame and worthlessness evoked by his disregard of others the individual has engaged in a process of guilt denial...

    ... ennea-type VIII character fails to constitute full humanness..

    ...lust, in its impetuous grasping of the tangible, entails an impoverishment of tender qualities and subtlety which results in a loss of wholeness...this reaching, substituted for being, leaves him forever dissatisfied, craving intensity.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
    ENFP
    5w4>1w9>2w1 Sx/Sp
    SEE-Fi
    Papa Bear
    Motivation: Dark Worker
    Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
    Chibi Seme
    MTG Color: black/red
    Male Archtype: King/Lover
    Sunburst!
    "You are a gay version of Gambit" Speed Gavroche
    "I wish that I could be affected by any hate, but I can't, cuz I just get affected by the bank" Chamillionaire

  4. #4
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elfboy View Post
    this is why I mistyped as an 8 for so long, if going by sheer motivation, the order of my enneagram type would be
    8>7>4>6>9>1>5>3>2
    but when I dug deeper, this does not sound like me AT ALL.
    Well, actually, I could easily believe that I'am a 8 reading that description. Of course, when I dug even deeper, I realize that I'm not one.
    EsTP 6w7 Sx/Sp

    Chaotic Neutral

    E=60% S=55% T=70% P=80%

    "I don't believe in guilt, I only believe in living on impulses"

    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  5. #5
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    I think there needs to be an official consensus that differentiates between the two types of the enneagram; the one that measures the human psyche by means of motivation and fear, and the one that measures the human psyche by means of subjective perception of reality. Because all in all, both are measuring different aspects of the human mind, and to trying and equate the two as synonymous just ends up leading to confusing and arguing.

    Also, it would seem that some practitioners have written certain aspects of the enneagram in a different way, so that certain types seem to be different according to other systems. But this is to be exepcted of a theoretical framework that seeks to describe general characteristics of human psychology; one group of people slowly developed aspects of the system so that is operates better, and over time create a system that could be considered entirely different to the original, although similar in construction. The Enneagram seems to be victim to this in the same method as JCF and Socionics.

    So overall, there really needs to be a seperate title for such conceptual frameworks so that people can acknowledge the different theories without confusing one with the other simply because they share the title of 'enneagram'.

  6. #6
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I'm pretty sure I've already reduced the Enneagram to about the most functional terms it can be reduced to. Unfortunately, the required doing away with some of the fruity prescriptive stuff that a lot of Enneagram students cling to.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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  7. #7
    Senior Member VagrantFarce's Avatar
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    Yes, the enneagram styles are meant to describe unconscious patterns of experience - the automatic feelings, decisions, actions that we take for granted without realising it.

    What I find frustrating is how people focus too much on surface traits, saying silly shit like "he can't be a sexual type, he's not sexy" or "I'm not a Five because I'm not very smart" or "I feel sorry for myself, therefore I'm a 4".
    Last edited by VagrantFarce; 02-09-2012 at 02:01 PM.
    Hello

  8. #8
    Senior Member Richardsen's Avatar
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    Yeah...
    motivations: 4/7.... Distorded by a 6


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    "Some people never go crazy... What truly horrible lives they must lead"- Charles Bukowski


  9. #9
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    i understand "motivation" in the sense of "fear motivation". but it's like an outlier in your larger group of motivations, pushing everything askew. distorting, because you have to put off and/or modify your primary motivations to sate your fear motivation. the mistake is to think it is your only motivation... the answer is to realize it's the only motivation that doesn't align with your other motivations.

  10. #10
    Alexander the Terrible yenom's Avatar
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    Actually, it is about motivation. I don't see there is anything else to it.
    The fear of poverty turns people into slaves of money.

    "In this Caesar there are many Mariuses"~Sulla

    Conquer your inner demons first before you conquer the world.

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