Plastic Personalities

[Santosha]

Well, I'm a big Fi user and I found the OP, interesting.. along the lines of 21%. You drudged up one of the more negative type 3 descriptions and threw it on a billboard. Congrats. Did you think you were offering some new take? An original observation? No, I don't take you for such an igit. Yet still.. no questions, no discussion, it's a bit unsettling to me. To be honest, the very first thing I considered had nothing to do with type "fako". My first thoughts were.. 'what does posting a thread like this say about Mal12345?' and 'What might he hope to get out of it?' and 'Why does Mal seem to continually have communication and perception run-ins with virtually every thread he posts and a majority of users?' Yes, clearly the answer is that you are the only anti-pc mo-fo on the forum. Everyone else is being a ginormous, PC fraud.

With that in mind, I'd like to make note of an interesting E5 description. It goes something like this....

The Isolated Nihilist

"The need to keep others at a safe distance to protect their frantic search for mastery sets the stage for Fives to become extremely antagonistic toward anyone who they believe threatens their world. The self doubt becomes so great that almost everything threatens them. They feel hopelessly ill-adapted for life and are profoundly disguisted with the world. Convinced that they are never going to find a place for themselves in society they turn their back on it. Their agressions are aroused when people question their ideas. Opposing individuals must be discredited, their own ideas shown to be worthless.
In a distorted hope to retain inellectual honesty, unhealthy 5's throw out faith, hope, love and friendship. They burn bridges.. everywhere."

I find this description very accurate in unhealthy 5's. Woopedy fucking ooo.

 

[garbage]

Well, I'm a big Fi user and I found the OP, interesting.. along the lines of 21%. You drudged up one of the more negative type 3 descriptions and threw it on a billboard. Congrats. Did you think you were offering some new take? An original observation? No, I don't take you for such an igit. Yet still.. no questions, no discussion, it's a bit unsettling to me. To be honest, the very first thing I considered had nothing to do with type "fako". My first thoughts were.. 'what does posting a thread like this say about Mal12345?' and 'What might he hope to get out of it?' and 'Why does Mal seem to continually have communication and perception run-ins with virtually every thread he posts and a majority of users?' Yes, clearly the answer is that you are the only anti-pc mo-fo on the forum. Everyone else is being a ginormous, PC fraud.

I thought the implied discussion was "This is interesting, a tie-in between Enneagram and an outside psychological phenomenon. Please discuss this if you agree or disagree." I don't think mal necessarily has ill intentions or biases toward type 3s because of his post.

The Isolated Nihilist

"The need to keep others at a safe distance to protect their frantic search for mastery sets the stage for Fives to become extremely antagonistic toward anyone who they believe threatens their world. The self doubt becomes so great that almost everything threatens them. They feel hopelessly ill-adapted for life and are profoundly disguisted with the world. Convinced that they are never going to find a place for themselves in society they turn their back on it. Their agressions are aroused when people question their ideas. Opposing individuals must be discredited, their own ideas shown to be worthless.
In a distorted hope to retain inellectual honesty, unhealthy 5's throw out faith, hope, love and friendship. They burn bridges.. everywhere."

I find this description very accurate in unhealthy 5's. Woopedy fucking ooo.

I know what your intent is, but I'm discussing this anyway.

To anyone: how does the 5's "self-doubt" described here jive with the 5's trusting his mind and his mind alone? I ask because I doubt myself quite often and didn't see it as a 5 'thing'--but maybe my understanding was off.

 

[Owfin]

5s don't really trust their mind, so much as they take it as a sanctuary from the world. 5s are suspicious and fearful of the world. They can self-doubting, but it isn't intrinsic to the type like it is for a 6.

The 6 core is a knot of doubt and anxiety that permeates everything.

 

[Mal12345]

I thought the implied discussion was "This is interesting, a tie-in between Enneagram and an outside psychological phenomenon. Please discuss this if you agree or disagree." I don't think mal necessarily has ill intentions or biases toward type 3s because of his post.

The type 3 hatred thing always did distress me greatly. I first heard about it while chatting by phone with the Enneagram Monthly editor back around 1992. I couldn't understand it then, and I still can't.

It's not the hatred part I don't get, but that this seems really out of character for these personality-growth wonks.

 

[entropie]

I'ld be a big 3 as well, if I just could control preemptive ejaculation umpyouup:

 

[Mal12345]

The type 3 hatred thing always did distress me greatly. I first heard about it while chatting by phone with the Enneagram Monthly editor back around 1992. I couldn't understand it then, and I still can't.

It's not the hatred part I don't get, but that this seems really out of character for these personality-growth wonks.

I'm replying to my own post just to add that I really think it has to do with the fact that the type 3 seems to be the type with the least desire for personal growth, that is, growth of a spiritual nature. I don't know if that's true or not.

I have noticed that around here I sometimes am looked down at as if I am one of those types. I feel the pain of the type 3 who is attacked by those who pretend to inhabit some "higher personal dimension" of reality. A type 3 would probably reply that nobody is on a more advanced level - and indeed, because of their more honest understanding of life, 3s are actually ahead of the curve.

 

[entropie]

I am a 7 and have the least desire for spiritual growth as well. My gf is a 4, same there

 

[Santosha]

I thought the implied discussion was "This is interesting, a tie-in between Enneagram and an outside psychological phenomenon. Please discuss this if you agree or disagree."

Only the OP can know what his original intent was. Since he didn't clearly communicate it (imo) who knows. As said before, no question was asked. No connection was made beyond 3's being plastic and society being plastic. ANy of the following could potentially come up.

-3's are fake and others are fake, all fake people are reallys 3's
-what charactoristics do we attribute to 3's fakeness and non-3 fakeness?
-if fakeness can be found in other enneatypes as one aspect, why do we attribute it as such a profound aspect in 3's?
-is a 3 really fake if their core goal is validation and they change faces to achieve that goal? Isn't the 3 being very true to its fixation then?
-what causes a 3 to be a 3? What parts of development are key to the 3 fakeness and key to non-3 fakers? Can this be pin-pointed?
-if we are not ourselves, who are we?
-if we transcended words that attempt to define real and fake, could we then agree on meaning?
-does the act of disliking fake people make one less fake?
-if one is very preoccupied with finding others fake could it be that they are really identifying what they hate in themselves? (must one be a fake to know a fake?)
-can someone be a purely fake human-being? Where does real end and fake begin?
-does being fake and real have a value and how do we set that value?
-Who is better, a real murderer or a fake teacher?
-Have 3's secretly taken over the rest of society and started brainwashing their fake 3 values?
-Are all societys equally fake, or are certain societies prone to this? Why? Do more 3's live amongst these societys?
-Can we combat fake as a whole? Or must this be done individually? Who would be the ultimate authority on fake?
-If fake is a way of supressing ones true thoughts and feelings, is everyone on psychological meds a fake?
-does going to therapy and re-learning positive thought processes make one fake?
-is makeup, hairdye and pushup bras fake? Are people that use these bad?
-should the non fakers try to find a genetic marker and weed the fakers out?

I still do not see the connection in the OP. 3's can be plastic. Societys can be plastic. Has he found a connection or is he asking for one?

 

[Mal12345]

I am a 7 and have the least desire for spiritual growth as well. My gf is a 4, same there

It has more to do with negatively stereotyping 3s as a group, and less to do with finding individuals who are anti-personality growth.

 

[garbage]

5s don't really trust their mind, so much as they take it as a sanctuary from the world. 5s are suspicious and fearful of the world. They can self-doubting, but it isn't intrinsic to the type like it is for a 6.

The 6 core is a knot of doubt and anxiety that permeates everything.

Thanks, I'd love to hear more about this.

The type 3 hatred thing always did distress me greatly. I first heard about it while chatting by phone with the Enneagram Monthly editor back around 1992. I couldn't understand it then, and I still can't.

It's not the hatred part I don't get, but that this seems really out of character for these personality-growth wonks.

In my limited experience filtered through my own biases and limited perceptions, 3 seems to be among the most hated and 6 among the most pitied in typology discussions. It's pretty weird to me that they're not all seen as (nearly) equally pitiable.

I'm replying to my own post just to add that I really think it has to do with the fact that the type 3 seems to be the type with the least desire for personal growth, that is, growth of a spiritual nature. I don't know if that's true or not.

I have noticed that around here I sometimes am looked down at as if I am one of those types. I feel the pain of the type 3 who is attacked by those who pretend to inhabit some "higher personal dimension" of reality. A type 3 would probably reply that nobody is on a more advanced level - and indeed, because of their honest understanding of life, 3s are actually ahead of the curve.

It seems that, just like any type, they might have to be "humbled" by life experience in order to realize that their ego fixation (in this case, a desire to maintain a perfect and desirable 'image') only goes so far. (I just watched the cute lil' film Rango which, in my estimation, captures this for a possible type 3.)

I think you're right, though; your hypothetical 3 would be on the mark--the "more advanced" level is an ideal, a mere construct.
--
I personally strive for growth across all dimensions, to the point of being a perfectionist with respect to myself and my capabilities. I have a hard time "putting it out there" if I feel that it's not going to be perfect. I just plain want to be that ideal, even though it is just an unobtainable construct. One 3 motto captured it well, something along the lines of "everyone looks to be relying on me--better not make a mistake." It was actually that desire for growth that has made me ponder type 3 for myself.

 

[entropie]

It has more to do with negatively stereotyping 3s as a group, and less to do with finding individuals who are anti-personality growth.

Ey dont twist my words I hate that

 

[Mal12345]

In my limited experience filtered through my own biases and limited perceptions, 3 seems to be among the most hated and 6 among the most pitied in typology discussions. It's pretty weird to me that they're not all seen as (nearly) equally pitiable.

EXACTLY. 3-bashing goes way, way back, probably before Al Gore invented the internet. But everything is on a level playing field.

It seems that, just like any type, they might have to be "humbled" by life experience in order to realize that their ego fixation (in this case, a desire to maintain a perfect and desirable 'image') only goes so far. (I just watched the cute lil' film Rango which, in my estimation, captures this for a possible type 3.)

I think you're right, though; your hypothetical 3 would be on the mark--the "more advanced" level is an ideal, a mere construct.

I personally strive for growth across all dimensions, to the point of being an absolute perfectionist with respect to myself and my own capabilities. One 3 motto captured it well, something along the lines of "everyone looks to be relying on me--better not make a mistake." It was actually that desire for growth that has made me ponder type 3 for myself.

I'll check out Rango. I see type 3 as more of an ENFJ. But it is still an image-orientation, as you said. The Fe looks to society to provide an image of that ideal, such as the beautiful model in the billboard ad.

 

[Owfin]

Thanks, I'd love to hear more about this.



In my limited experience filtered through my own biases and limited perceptions, 3 seems to be among the most hated and 6 among the most pitied in typology discussions. It's pretty weird to me that they're not all seen as (nearly) equally pitiable.



It seems that, just like any type, they might have to be "humbled" by life experience in order to realize that their ego fixation (in this case, a desire to maintain a perfect and desirable 'image') only goes so far. (I just watched the cute lil' film Rango which, in my estimation, captures this for a possible type 3.)

I think you're right, though; your hypothetical 3 would be on the mark--the "more advanced" level is an ideal, a mere construct.
--
I personally strive for growth across all dimensions, to the point of being a perfectionist with respect to myself and my capabilities. I have a hard time "putting it out there" if I feel that it's not going to be perfect. I just plain want to be that ideal, even though it is just an unobtainable construct. One 3 motto captured it well, something along the lines of "everyone looks to be relying on me--better not make a mistake." It was actually that desire for growth that has made me ponder type 3 for myself.

I don't know why anybody would hate on type 3. Actually, people like to hate on image types (except for the SO SPECIAL 4s; and the love of 4s for that is so thoroughly missing the point that I facepalm every time I see it). Type 2 seems to get the worst of it, but I think that such a need for others to appreciate them is sad, not evil. You sound very much like a 3 in your bottom paragraph. 3s indeed have a strong desire to become their perfect ideal/image. Type 1 is usually associated with perfectionism, but 3s tend to be more... personal, about it.

Also, I don't understand why everybody wants to be a 7. The 7 feeling of trying to just not run out, to just be ahead of their fear [of pain] that strikes a chord in me.

 

[garbage]

I don't know why anybody would hate on type 3. Actually, people like to hate on image types (except for the SO SPECIAL 4s; and the love of 4s for that is so thoroughly missing the point that I facepalm every time I see it). Type 2 seems to get the worst of it, but I think that such a need for others to appreciate them is sad, not evil. You sound very much like a 3 in your bottom paragraph. 3s indeed have a strong desire to become their perfect ideal/image. Type 1 is usually associated with perfectionism, but 3s tend to be more... personal, about it.

Also, I don't understand why everybody wants to be a 7. The 7 feeling of trying to just not run out, to just be ahead of their fear [of pain] that strikes a chord in me.

Thanks for all of this. I am still figuring myself out.
--
Half-brained question: do people have more hatred toward the more extroverted types in general, since they can potentially be seen as "in your face" or "controlling" and, at least introverts will largely leave you alone?

 

[Owfin]

Thanks for all of this. I am still figuring myself out.
--
Half-brained question: do people have more hatred toward the more extroverted types in general, since they can potentially be seen as "in your face" or "controlling" and, at least introverts will largely leave you alone?

Thank you for being a good audience. Lots of times in "What's my type?" threads, I have to tone down the negativism because people might reject descriptions of themselves that they find too negative.

I suppose that might be why people don't like extroverts. Extroverts need to dip into a wide pool of information for their dominant function to do it's thing. Introverted functions keep to information already internalized, so they operate more quietly and unnoticeably.

 

[Santosha]

I don't know why anybody would hate on type 3. Actually, people like to hate on image types (except for the SO SPECIAL 4s; and the love of 4s for that is so thoroughly missing the point that I facepalm every time I see it). Type 2 seems to get the worst of it, but I think that such a need for others to appreciate them is sad, not evil.
Also, I don't understand why everybody wants to be a 7. The 7 feeling of trying to just not run out, to just be ahead of their fear [of pain] that strikes a chord in me.

I really agree with you on the way that type 2 is perceived, and this has kind of been a sore spot with me, not the overall description of 2's but the way the unhealthy aspects of 2 gets emphasized and the more healthy aspects dimmed down. Alot like the 3, actually. I also agree that identity seekers can be construed as image-seekers and I know all too well the negative feelings that might be evoked when dealing with those that put tremendous energy into image goals instead of what others might view as more authentic goals. I readily admit that in my own experience of working with groups professionally and academically, 2's and 3's have not caused nearly as much doubt and disrupt as the unhealthy 5's and 6's, though this is a small and subjective sample. There seems to be a golden rule with enneagram, one that I have typically tried to abide by - do not use this knowledge of anothers core fears and weakness against them. Do not push it upon them and emphasize it unless the audience is willing to receive. When I posted that note about e5's, I wasn't saying that MAL is an unhealthy e5, but that if one looks hard enough anytype can be made out to look rotten. I suppose this is obvious. And to be fair it was poor taste on my part. But it definately seems that both 2's and 3's get alot of shit when one rifles through different forums. Shit that to me, seems undeserved, because I have known many 2's and 3's to be very genuine people with positive intentions.

The bottom line is that ANY type can be fake. 1's can be fake by supressing what speaks to their hearts in an effort to establish right and wrong. A 2 might do it to be loved. A 3 for success and validation. A 4 to believe they are different and original. A 5 might be fake by supressing their physical and emotional realities to emphasize knowledge. A 6 to ward off fears... and on. Fake is a very subjective term, for who is to know what genuine thoughts and feelings occur but the holder? Who can stand from the outside perspective and think they know another better than themself?

I reserve throwing around terms like "plastic" and "fake" because who the fuck am I to decide, really? And who is anyone else.

 

[iwakar]

I think the Enneagram in general has a much more negative focus. Owfin's and Huxley's remarks on types 2 and 4 run perpendicular to mine. My Type 2 ENFP boyfriend thought the Type 4 description was the most negative one in the Riso-Hudson book and he was shocked to find out I typed as a 4. I do not strike him as the self-absorbed, bohemian, image-obsessed 4 carelessly alluded to in the summaries.

It seems that if one wants to "feel good about themselves," they turn to MBTI. If they want to peel back the mask, they turn to the Enneagram.

 

[garbage]

It seems that if one wants to "feel good about themselves," they turn to MBTI. If they want to peel back the mask, they turn to the Enneagram.

+ a billion

MBTI is great for the initial "oh, people are different!" thing, and Jungian cognitive functions have some depth to them, but the Enneagram is better equipped to help with recognizing personal weak spots.

It's also worth recognizing that the mask is pretty flippin' painful to tear off and that we all need some forgiveness as we run through the process.

 

[Mal12345]

It seems that, just like any type, they might have to be "humbled" by life experience in order to realize that their ego fixation (in this case, a desire to maintain a perfect and desirable 'image') only goes so far. (I just watched the cute lil' film Rango which, in my estimation, captures this for a possible type 3.)

Rango is a type 6 cartoon character who reminds me a bit of Don Knotts.

 

[garbage]

Rango is a type 6 cartoon character who reminds me a bit of Don Knotts.

Interesting, because I identify a lot with Rango and deliberate over 3 and 6 (not so much 5 anymore) for myself.

To me, he embodied quite a bit of narcissism and wanted to put on an act to impress other people, he tends to be what other people need him to be, and he seems to embody plasticity as well. I thought those were type 3 traits--does a type 6 have those tendencies as well? Do you think he has type 6's need for security?