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  1. #81
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Yeah, I really don't understand why you guys are so skeptical of tritypes. I say this because given the truth of the enneagram system, it seems obviously true that we have different preferences in each fix. I'm a 4w3 but that doesn't mean I don't think right, so how do I prefer to think? How do I act physically?
    My understanding of enneagram is that is does not describe these at all. All of the types are defined by core motivations, which are emotional. The head triad is not about ways of thinking, but rather, about being fear/anxiety-driven, which influences how one thinks and feels. The heart triad is not about emotions, but rather being image/self-value-driven, which also influences how one thinks and feels. The gut triad is not about how you behave physically, but rather it's about being driven by anger/power issues.

    An example of how your core type's motivations influences everything from thought to physical behavior is how the 4 has a tendency for intellectual interests, artistic snobbery, indulgence in sensual experiences, and using their physical image for self-expression. Their image drive affects how they think, feel, act and appear.

    For example, I'm a 479, my life's biggest problems personality wise root from seeking my identity - that is my core. However the 7 and the 9 help explain the other parts of my personality, and saying that I'm a 479 ultimately gives a fuller explanation of who I am than just saying I'm a 4. Maybe I just find tritypes more convincing because I'm a 4w3; meaning that both my type and my wing are in the image fix. It's easier for someone like a 4w5 to find that title useful, there's already a number in 2 different fixes (though that can be misleading of course). If your wing happens to be your second fix, you're super lucky. For a guy like me however, tritypes explain a lot. I doubt I can last a week in the weeping melancholy of a standard 4.
    I understand this argument, and I'm not discounting it, but it also doesn't explain away the possibility that it's simply different ways of describing the same traits. For instance, not to re-type you (as I don't know you), but what if instead of not being a standard melancholy 4w3, a person was really a 3w4, still in the image triad but more likely to suppress emotions to move towards image-goals, rather than lingering in emotions to amplify an identity rooted in them? That's just a hypothetical example of how there different ways of explaining personality traits in enneagram, and how it may be a matter of anything from wing influence, directions of growth, and even mistyping due to lookalike combinations. It should be noted that many enneagram theories note that types are influenced by BOTH wings, but that one tends to be stronger. So you have dimension as well....
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  2. #82
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Do we not have emotional attachments to different aspects of our personality? I don't really see how that would change much. I am emotionally attached to my image in a certain way, attached to my mind in another way and my body (or how I interact with the external world, how I do things) in another way. Still works doesn't it?

    On the second point, I'm sure you're right that I can explain my tritype in terms of my type + wing, however, I think that's oversimplifying things. There are a million ways in which a 4w3 for example could be exemplified. The point of a tritype isn't necessarily to pick out the motivations, but to pick up on the specific ways in which your core type has developed.
    Chimera of Filth

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  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    My understanding of enneagram is that is does not describe these at all. All of the types are defined by core motivations, which are emotional. The head triad is not about ways of thinking, but rather, about being fear/anxiety-driven, which influences how one thinks and feels. The heart triad is not about emotions, but rather being image/self-value-driven, which also influences how one thinks and feels. The gut triad is not about how you behave physically, but rather it's about being driven by anger/power issues.
    Precisely. I think naming the triads heart, head, gut was a bad move for this very reason. Maybe image, fear, anger instead?


    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai
    The point of a tritype isn't necessarily to pick out the motivations, but to pick up on the specific ways in which your core type has developed.
    If that's the case, I guess that's maybe why tritype descriptions remind me of MBTI descriptions. What I love about the enneagram is it gets to the root. I can look at my past actions, my behaviors, wonder what's holding my back, and it's there in the four (and to a lesser extent in my five wing). For me, the enneagram is about transformation. Tritype seems to me more about personality typing; it kind of gives me the feeling I got with figuring out I was an INFP, which was "Okay... now what do I do with this?"

    Some people get into it and it seems to help them. I guess it doesn't work that way for me. I think the think that irks me about it is the Fauvres saying that those of the same tritype have more in common with each other than those of the same enneatype. This makes no sense to me and I have as of yet found this to be true (for me, anyway). There is something very intrinsic and primal I share with other fours and I feel it deeply.

    Do we not have emotional attachments to different aspects of our personality? I don't really see how that would change much. I am emotionally attached to my image in a certain way, attached to my mind in another way and my body (or how I interact with the external world, how I do things) in another way. Still works doesn't it?
    I feel like my mind and body are all part of the image I am emotionally attached to. By image, I mean identity. If you are part of the image triad, what is you is incredibly important.

  4. #84
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Do we not have emotional attachments to different aspects of our personality? I don't really see how that would change much. I am emotionally attached to my image in a certain way, attached to my mind in another way and my body (or how I interact with the external world, how I do things) in another way. Still works doesn't it?
    Emotional attachment is not the same as a motivation, which goes beyond conscious identification with a trait or image.

    I'm not really sure what point you're making with this or what this has to do with how enneagram works...

    On the second point, I'm sure you're right that I can explain my tritype in terms of my type + wing, however, I think that's oversimplifying things. There are a million ways in which a 4w3 for example could be exemplified. The point of a tritype isn't necessarily to pick out the motivations, but to pick up on the specific ways in which your core type has developed.
    Why is wings & direction of growth oversimplifying things? How is it more simple than tritype?

    If the argument is that the tritype shows how the other triads influence the development of the core type, then it really does overlap with wings & direction of growth, as they do the very same thing.... The reason I find tritype interesting is the idea that we have a motivation from each triad (one image related, one fear, one anger), but even this conflicts a bit with the wing, which is something like a secondary motivation. The core type is the dominating motivation and the wing colors that motivation. The directions of growth bring in motivations which balance/distort the core one so as to grow/regress as a person. So both theories explain how other types' motivations influence your core type, just in different ways.

    I can see this & tritype working in conjunction, but then it begins to seem overcomplicated to me so that identifying your type becomes a random grab bag where you can be any type you want, using wings, direction of growth & tritype to explain why you're not a "typical version" of your core type. This makes categorizing personality sort of pointless then.... Like I said before: if you're a 4, but you look/act like a 3 or a 9, then maybe you aren't a 4 at all! This is especially true as people can be poor about identifying their own emotional motivations or misunderstand what a type's motivation even is.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  5. #85
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    I can see this & tritype working in conjunction, but then it begins to seem overcomplicated to me so that identifying your type becomes a random grab bag where you can be any type you want, using wings, direction of growth & tritype to explain why you're not a "typical version" of your core type. This makes categorizing personality sort of pointless then.... Like I said before: if you're a 4, but you look/act like a 3 or a 9, then maybe you aren't a 4 at all! This is especially true as people can be poor about identifying their own emotional motivations or misunderstand what a type's motivation even is.
    Let's focus on this, because it seems to be the fundamental difference of our stance. I do not believe in certain enneagram types having to look a certain way. If they do look a certain way, that image archetype does exist, it exists as a very general, flexible one. Let's just take the case of a 4, since we seem to share that type. We will share the same type of identity crisis the type involves. We want to be special, we want to achieve our unrealistic ideals, we fear mediocrity and we want to be ourselves. However how that sense of identity can unfold is multifaceted. You can't just say "well maybe he's not a type 4 at all", because of certain differences in demeanor. When someone tells you that this is the core part of their identity, is it not ignorant to say that they're wrong because it unfolds in a different way than somebody else with the same crisis? Where you see tritypes as being over-complicated, I see it as an extra descriptive tool.

    Let me try and explain myself with an analogy here. Two football teams have a highly similar coaching philosophy and goals for the upcoming season. However, due to their different economic stances and slight differences in their front office, one has a very offensive squad, whereas the other one is very defensive. You can't then look at these squads and say "well, these teams obviously don't share the Belichick coaching tree" or "that team isn't like most of the other Belichick teams, so it must not be". Shouldn't the fan say something more like "it's interesting how the Belichick coaching philosophy developed with this team"or something like that? You're looking at the enneagram in too much of a behaviorist fashion. The behaviors can look very different with the core being the same.
    Chimera of Filth

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  6. #86
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Let's focus on this, because it seems to be the fundamental difference of our stance. I do not believe in certain enneagram types having to look a certain way. If they do look a certain way, that image archetype does exist, it exists as a very general, flexible one. Let's just take the case of a 4, since we seem to share that type. We will share the same type of identity crisis the type involves. We want to be special, we want to achieve our unrealistic ideals, we fear mediocrity and we want to be ourselves. However how that sense of identity can unfold is multifaceted. You can't just say "well maybe he's not a type 4 at all", because of certain differences in demeanor. When someone tells you that this is the core part of their identity, is it not ignorant to say that they're wrong because it unfolds in a different way than somebody else with the same crisis? Where you see tritypes as being over-complicated, I see it as an extra descriptive tool.

    Let me try and explain myself with an analogy here. Two football teams have a highly similar coaching philosophy and goals for the upcoming season. However, due to their different economic stances and slight differences in their front office, one has a very offensive squad, whereas the other one is very defensive. You can't then look at these squads and say "well, these teams obviously don't share the Belichick coaching tree" or "that team isn't like most of the other Belichick teams, so it must not be". Shouldn't the fan say something more like "it's interesting how the Belichick coaching philosophy developed with this team"or something like that? You're looking at the enneagram in too much of a behaviorist fashion. The behaviors can look very different with the core being the same.
    When I say "look alike", I mean general personality, not specific behavior. Demeanor
    goes beyond behavior. It's the visible personality that manifests those motivations. Behavior examples are not meant to be binding, but illustrative. I agree with the first bolded part, and that's a big part of what wings & growth can affect, but I think you're making it broad to the point where you can cherry pick any type you want, claim the motivation, and then claim you're just some massive exception when nothing about it describes your personality. The patterns of how types manifest are important & have been identified for this very reason. There have to be SOME parameters; the purpose is to classify people using defined categories.

    So my opinion remains the same because this just conflated it with a different stance.

    As for the second bolded part - no. One - people can be crap at typing themselves & others, especially when it comes to something like emotional motivations. Two - if their personality defies a type's definitive characteristics, and their demeanor doesn't manifest its basic motivations, then what is left for them to be categorized as that personality type? Their mere claim? The more likely explanation is they've mistyped.

    I don't know anything about football or what Beliachick is, but it would be easy for anyone to deduce the motives behind differing methods & see the shared motivation. That's exactly the issue - when a personality does not trace back to the motivations of a type at all. If they consistently display a personality which signifies motivations in line with another type, then maybe they are that type. To make it more complicated than that strikes me as denial.

    FYI, the 4 motivations you detailed aren't even unequivocally 4 motivations (which just goes to show it's easy for people to mix up types as they do appear to overlap, even motivation-wise). Fear of mediocrity is VERY 7, who are also described as being ideal-driven & a bit self-absorbed in a quest to become who/do what they want. The core of the 4 is shame, feeling defective, not a fear.

    To further explain that point, consider this Misidentification description of 4s & 7s from The Essential Enneagram:

    Types 4s & 8s: Romantic 4s & Epicurean 7s can be considered lookalike types because they are both intense and idealistic and want life to be adventuresome and highly stimulating. They both approach life by focusing on what they want, think, and feel. However, Epicures [7s] are the most upbeat and pleasure-seeking type, and they avoid pain and negative feelings wherever possible, whereas Romantics [4s] are just the opposite. They tend to become melancholy, to have deep feelings, and to accept pain as part of life.
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  7. #87
    Cheeseburgers freeeekyyy's Avatar
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    I've tested before as 5-8-2, and that's what my signature says, but after reading the description, I think I identify more with 5-2-8, and it's also more compatible with a 4 wing and sx instinctual variant, which are what I have.
    You lose.

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  8. #88
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OrangeAppled View Post
    Stuff
    Given the function of the enneagram, it seems very odd to call one's proclaimed crisis just a 'mere claim'. The point of the enneagram is to identify certain core personality dilemmas/crises and to make one realise these things and overcome it. Given a certain amount of intelligence, self understanding and time spent thinking of these things, I find it hard for someone to not know their own problems. At the very least, you can't just call it 'a mere claim'. No, the subject themselves are the only ones with direct access to their mental states. Given this struggle between the subject's claim and behavioral aspects, I would still take the former any day of the week, if the subject is convinced that those are their dilemmas.

    On the topic of tracing back one's motivations, I feel like we're talking passed each other. I never said that a 479 for example has motivations different to any 4. What I said was that the 4 unfolds in different ways, despite the motivations staying the same. So for example, the 7 and the 9 creates a sense of optimism and playfulness and so unlike other 4's, the 479 has less attachment to sadness. That sadness and shame is still there, but the optimism lifts them above that and provides hope.
    Chimera of Filth

    A gruesome beast with dripping flesh
    Clings to me as a sick fixture
    My throbbing heart it gnawed apart
    It stalks and hunts me through mirrors

  9. #89
    Sugar Hiccup OrangeAppled's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by animenagai View Post
    Given a certain amount of intelligence, self understanding and time spent thinking of these things, I find it hard for someone to not know their own problems.
    Those are a lot of givens, and I don't think everyone lives up to them.

    I don't use "claim" to mean a person means to deceive others or even themselves, but that they see themselves as a certain type without any way to support it, other than deciding this must be their motivation because they think they are that type. In other words, the type defines their motivation for them. A good example of this is when a person tests as a type, latches onto it, feels the motivation describes them well, then later learns more about other types & realizes a different motivation suits them better. That happens a LOT. A lot of people have trouble even defining their own motivation & many don't grasp what the motivations for each type really are to begin with. It's the exact same issue people have when deciding their MBTI type.

    On the topic of tracing back one's motivations, I feel like we're talking passed each other. I never said that a 479 for example has motivations different to any 4. What I said was that the 4 unfolds in different ways, despite the motivations staying the same. So for example, the 7 and the 9 creates a sense of optimism and playfulness and so unlike other 4's, the 479 has less attachment to sadness. That sadness and shame is still there, but the optimism lifts them above that and provides hope.
    But that's just it - that could be due to 1 integration or simply levels of health, not tritype. It could also be a wing issue - 4w3s are noted to be more driven to succeed & to be more sociable than 4w5s, which a person who wallows all the time will not be. (No one said typical 4s feel entirely hopeless anyway. 4s are described as pessimistic about the present, not the future.)

    That's the main argument (not mistyping) - how does tritype really explain anything wings & directions of growth cannot? Is tritype just another way of describing what wings & integration/disintegration already describe?
    Often a star was waiting for you to notice it. A wave rolled toward you out of the distant past, or as you walked under an open window, a violin yielded itself to your hearing. All this was mission. But could you accomplish it? (Rilke)

    INFP | 4w5 sp/sx | RLUEI - Primary Inquisitive | Tritype is tripe

  10. #90
    Senior Member animenagai's Avatar
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    On the first part, I'm sure that does happen a lot, but it's equally conditional that what you're describing is what happens. I can't speak for anyone else, but my identity with my type is basically the reverse of what you described. I latched on to the description of a 7, only to find later that the core motivations aren't ones I hold on to. What you described certainly happens, but that's different from someone who genuinely thought this out and identified dilemmas core to their personality, despite differences on the surface (I do realise that this can seem circular to you, so if you don't buy into it, just focus more on the next part).

    On the second part, sure that can all be a 4 integrating to a 1, but that integration implies growth right, and the optimism explained can actually look very distant from a 1. If I understand it correctly, the 4 integrating into a 1 has a lot of practicality packed into it. it's about getting out of your head and expressing that creativity in real world situations. The problem here is that the fairy-ness of a 479 can almost be the opposite of that. They can be unhealthy in the sense that they are still living completely in their own fairy world (which isn't completely positive by the way, I just can't think of a better word to describe it with). What you get is an individual who displays only the optimism of the 1 (if that's even part of the integration) and still be completely lacking in health and growth.
    Chimera of Filth

    A gruesome beast with dripping flesh
    Clings to me as a sick fixture
    My throbbing heart it gnawed apart
    It stalks and hunts me through mirrors

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