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Inter-Type Blur 4/5/6

What type does the paragraph seem to depict?

  • It sounds like a 4

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • It sounds like a 5

    Votes: 3 50.0%
  • It sounds like a 6

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • It sounds like a big blur of the above types

    Votes: 1 16.7%
  • It sounds like another type entirely

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    6

Alternatum

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6
The following was described as a perfect description of a 4. I self-type as a 6, but think the whole thing sounds like a total 4/5/6 blur. Does this challenge anyone's else's idea of a 6? Does it mean single 'core' types are a myth?

Going astray could mean morally-astray, but I was thinking more generally along the lines of deviating from that which is likely to serve your own best interests, which may or not affect others. It is complicated but in my case I often retreat into fantasy, to explore hypothetical situations (what would/should I do here?) to help find my own sense of guidance and identity, which I am also unclear about. The scenarios are often nothing to do with my current situation (as it doesn't generally 'engage' me), and I use it largely as a substitute for real-life experience, which I find too hazardous, overwhelming and disappointing - I'm overly intolerant of getting things 'wrong'. There is a sense that maybe one day I'll feel prepared enough to face life more fully, but in the meantime want to minimize my involvement, which has in turn reduced my commitments/responsibilities.
 

VagrantFarce

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I certainly wouldn't say Six. I would lean to Five - "minimising" one's participation in life out of a feeling of being unprepared or unable to engage, retreating into thought as a substitute for something that seems hazardous and overwhelming.
 

OrangeAppled

Sugar Hiccup
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Mar 20, 2009
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INFP
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sp/sx
I hear 5 the most here, with touches of 4. The bolded parts sound less 4. I think 4s don't want to deviate from a fantasy ideal; it's not a "best interests" matter so much as about staying true to self, which tends to be an imagined perfection.

I think 4s avoid real life to avoid hurt, rejection, and feeling to live up to their own ideal. They're not so intolerant of getting it wrong as scared of being a "fraud" because they cannot live up to their own ideal. Instead of needing to be "prepared" to face life, they feel like they need to be able to live up to the unique identity they've been constructing mentally. Instead of seeking to minimize involvement, they withdraw to protect their vulnerability. Subtle distinctions I guess, but they are heart/head differences, IMO.

4s seem more a tad more emotional than this sounds. This has the 5 touch of intellectualizing emotions & needing to be competent, which results in isolating oneself in order to become competent.


Going astray could mean morally-astray, but I was thinking more generally along the lines of deviating from that which is likely to serve your own best interests, which may or not affect others. It is complicated but in my case I often retreat into fantasy, to explore hypothetical situations (what would/should I do here?) to help find my own sense of guidance and identity, which I am also unclear about. The scenarios are often nothing to do with my current situation (as it doesn't generally 'engage' me), and I use it largely as a substitute for real-life experience, which I find too hazardous, overwhelming and disappointing - I'm overly intolerant of getting things 'wrong'. There is a sense that maybe one day I'll feel prepared enough to face life more fully, but in the meantime want to minimize my involvement, which has in turn reduced my commitments/responsibilities.
 

Alternatum

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6
I certainly wouldn't say Six. I would lean to Five - "minimising" one's participation in life out of a feeling of being unprepared or unable to engage, retreating into thought as a substitute for something that seems hazardous and overwhelming.

I’ve never heard of any fives, not even social fives, that spent more time fantasizing about inter-personal scenarios and engaging with others than on learning and developing theories (not that this is clear in the self-quote). I’ve read science fiction and science books but not at the ‘must become top expert’ level.
 

Alternatum

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6
I hear 5 the most here, with touches of 4. The bolded parts sound less 4. I think 4s don't want to deviate from a fantasy ideal; it's not a "best interests" matter so much as about staying true to self, which tends to be an imagined perfection.

I think 4s avoid real life to avoid hurt, rejection, and feeling to live up to their own ideal. They're not so intolerant of getting it wrong as scared of being a "fraud" because they cannot live up to their own ideal. Instead of needing to be "prepared" to face life, they feel like they need to be able to live up to the unique identity they've been constructing mentally. Instead of seeking to minimize involvement, they withdraw to protect their vulnerability. Subtle distinctions I guess, but they are heart/head differences, IMO.

4s seem more a tad more emotional than this sounds. This has the 5 touch of intellectualizing emotions & needing to be competent, which results in isolating oneself in order to become competent.

I relate to both actually. I am disengaged with my external self, like it doesn’t really represent me and think this is largely why I am reluctant to participate much. My fantasies are as much about exploring identity as they are about social/intellectual competence. But there's something very relating triad about them (3/6/9), to my way of thinking. Actually a lot of them have become trade-off battles as I realise that complete social competence would mean loss of vulnerability and lack of identification with the ideal, which must remain flawed and fragile. I am very in conflict over this and do sometimes imagine dramas where I screw-up and then paint some kind of significance into it.

Minimising my involvements does have a strong element of five-ish avarice in it, as well as being due to my self-unease/vulnerability. I think both 4s and 5s are vulnerable however.
 

Alternatum

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Thanks for the replies and votes - it is interesting they are all for 5.

I apologise however for not being entirely upfront about the reason for this thread/poll, which is not meant as a straightforward type-me request. If it had been I would have outlined my reasons in favour of 6. I am instead looking for reasons why I could be wrong by presenting instead what seems out-of-type for 6. Basically it is my view that type manifestation is not as straightforward as is depicted, and it is least straightforward for types 6 and 9, who are most likely to develop 'over-personas' resembling other types. If I wanted to I could write a mini-thesis outlining how a 6 can (superficially) resemble any other type, based on self and other observation. However, I prefer not to rely solely on my own (subjective) perceptions.

Another reason I don't think I'm a 5 is because I am simultaneously attracted/repelled by others' opinions. It's like I want to know what they are to help inform my own, but am achingly aware of how easily my thinking can be smothered by that of others (note that 3/6/9 all have a fragile psychological boundary in relation to other people, but with a different emphasis for each). My basic reaction to this is to distance myself from others to help maintain independence of mind, though there are additional reasons for doing this.
 

VagrantFarce

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Another reason I don't think I'm a 5 is because I am simultaneously attracted/repelled by others' opinions. It's like I want to know what they are to help inform my own, but am achingly aware of how easily my thinking can be smothered by that of others.

I don't see how this has anything to do with type, to be honest.

Can I ask why you're so adverse to being a Five? You seem pretty hell-bent on disproving it to yourself.
 

Alternatum

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I don't see how this has anything to do with type, to be honest.

Can I ask why you're so adverse to being a Five? You seem pretty hell-bent on disproving it to yourself.

Well for example, the other day I had to do a powerpoint presentation, in a venue I found somewhat intimidating. I got increasingly nervous during the presentation, getter shorter of breath and finding it more difficult to speak. By half-way down the last slide I found it impossible to continue and shortly afterwards could not stop from crying with frustration/embarassment. A large part of the trouble is not knowing what the audience is thinking during presentations, but also worrying that what I have presented is standing up to public scrutiny. So basically the emotionality, the fear of silence, the lack of confidence in my own perceptions and analysis.

If E5 is capable of all this however, then it is in with a shot.
 

VagrantFarce

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Well for example, the other day I had to do a powerpoint presentation, in a venue I found somewhat intimidating. I got increasingly nervous during the presentation, getter shorter of breath and finding it more difficult to speak. By half-way down the last slide I found it impossible to continue and shortly afterwards could not stop from crying with frustration/embarassment. A large part of the trouble is not knowing what the audience is thinking during presentations, but also worrying that what I have presented is standing up to public scrutiny. So basically the emotionality, the fear of silence, the lack of confidence in my own perceptions and analysis.

If E5 is capable of all this however, then it is in with a shot.

Anyone can suffer from stage fright, Fives aren't magically impervious to it. In fact, being a head type makes them lean more toward worry and anxiety than other types.
 

Santosha

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but to the degree of massive emotional upheaveal and crying? (No offense OP - I'm a 4 and can totally get that). That doesn't sound 5-ish to me, and neither does an overwhelming fear of how one is being perceived. I am highly curious in how likely this sceanrio would be for a 5 as well...

OP- what upset you more? Having others think poorly of the way you presented yourself, or having others find the data of your presentation wrong?
 
G

Glycerine

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Hypothetically, if a 5 is as perceived as "incompetent", then that can have an impact and they may worry about how others see them, in that sense. If the OP's fear is centered around helplessness, being incapable, being seen as incompetent, then it is possible that's he's a 5.
 

VagrantFarce

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but to the degree of massive emotional upheaveal and crying? (No offense OP - I'm a 4 and can totally get that). That doesn't sound 5-ish to me, and neither does an overwhelming fear of how one is being perceived. I am highly curious in how likely this sceanrio would be for a 5 as well...

Fives also have feelings and cry, y'know. :)
 

Alternatum

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OP- what upset you more? Having others think poorly of the way you presented yourself, or having others find the data of your presentation wrong?

I would say the latter. I do care about presentation as well, but while I was really embarassed about my crying at the time, I forgave myself as I understood why it happened and people were being very supportive afterwards. I often don't mind looking vulnerable, but looking stupid I can't tolerate in myself.
 

Alternatum

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Hypothetically, if a 5 is as perceived as "incompetent", then that can have an impact and they may worry about how others see them, in that sense. If the OP's fear is centered around helplessness, being incapable, being seen as incompetent, then it is possible that's he's a 5.

Yeah I'm really scared of looking stupid, but also fear bad choices in general - I strongly resist being lulled into a false sense of security and am a real pessimist. Sorry if that doesn't clear anything up.
 
G

Glycerine

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Is the fear mostly focused on the social aspect or most things in general? What you said still does not rule out 5.
 

VagrantFarce

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Yeah I'm really scared of looking stupid, but also fear bad choices in general - I strongly resist being lulled into a false sense of security and am a real pessimist. Sorry if that doesn't clear anything up.

I'm sensing a general undercurrent of anxiety and a difficulty in making decisions confidently, at least without a fear of looking like you don't know what you're doing. A subconscious need to avoid looking like a fool and be taken advantage of when you're most vulnerable. Right?
 

Mal12345

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Well for example, the other day I had to do a powerpoint presentation, in a venue I found somewhat intimidating. I got increasingly nervous during the presentation, getter shorter of breath and finding it more difficult to speak. By half-way down the last slide I found it impossible to continue and shortly afterwards could not stop from crying with frustration/embarassment. A large part of the trouble is not knowing what the audience is thinking during presentations, but also worrying that what I have presented is standing up to public scrutiny. So basically the emotionality, the fear of silence, the lack of confidence in my own perceptions and analysis.

If E5 is capable of all this however, then it is in with a shot.


I was just scanning through this thread, and upon reading this, recognized a type 6 from the part of your quote which I put in boldface. That is clearly a type 6 trait.

Edit - I decided to look at your profile for an e-type, and it says 6.

What does "in with a shot" mean?
 

Mal12345

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Thanks for the replies and votes - it is interesting they are all for 5.

I apologise however for not being entirely upfront about the reason for this thread/poll, which is not meant as a straightforward type-me request. If it had been I would have outlined my reasons in favour of 6. I am instead looking for reasons why I could be wrong by presenting instead what seems out-of-type for 6. Basically it is my view that type manifestation is not as straightforward as is depicted, and it is least straightforward for types 6 and 9, who are most likely to develop 'over-personas' resembling other types. If I wanted to I could write a mini-thesis outlining how a 6 can (superficially) resemble any other type, based on self and other observation. However, I prefer not to rely solely on my own (subjective) perceptions.

Another reason I don't think I'm a 5 is because I am simultaneously attracted/repelled by others' opinions. It's like I want to know what they are to help inform my own, but am achingly aware of how easily my thinking can be smothered by that of others (note that 3/6/9 all have a fragile psychological boundary in relation to other people, but with a different emphasis for each). My basic reaction to this is to distance myself from others to help maintain independence of mind, though there are additional reasons for doing this.

The 6w5 is the "more independent" side of the type 6. The quote provided in the OP sounds vaguely fourish (problem with identity) and more five-ish at the end (minimizing involvement). But from there on out, your comments come across strongly as type 6, and with the independent/withdrawing aspect you've mentioned along the way, definitely 6w5.

If I may, it doesn't sound like you have a problem with identity, but rather an internal conflict between the underlying motives of your primary and wing types.
 

Mal12345

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Yeah I'm really scared of looking stupid, but also fear bad choices in general - I strongly resist being lulled into a false sense of security and am a real pessimist. Sorry if that doesn't clear anything up.

Although the 5/6/7 triad is known for problems with anxiety, none of these three types really emphasize fear and insecurity the way your posts do - except for the 6.

The only way you could NOT be a 6 (particularly, 6w5) is if we throw out Enneagram theory completely and start all over again with a new paradigm. Almost all your posts where you describe yourself, except for the OP, utterly scream 6. The OP quote just happens to describe some 5-wing traits.

Edit - regarding the pessimism you mentioned above, the type 6 at level 5 is called, in Personality Types, the Ambivalent Pessimist.
 

Alternatum

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I'm sensing a general undercurrent of anxiety and a difficulty in making decisions confidently, at least without a fear of looking like you don't know what you're doing. A subconscious need to avoid looking like a fool and be taken advantage of when you're most vulnerable. Right?

Yes, but I also fear mistakes in general (though it depends on the enormity of the mistake), and the fact that there is nothing you can do to absolutely ensure physical safety, or things like not getting wrongly convincted of a crime/going to jail.
 
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