Enneatypes with lots of Enneatype-Instinct Variant dissonance

[kyuuei]

I opposed Elfboy about his theory, and I was asking about the accuracy of that list, which Speed Gavroche seems very trusting of it since all of his typings are from there. Naturally I would want to know why he's so sure. Why on earth would I be trolling and how am I "attacking" anyone? Elfboy was the one throwing out insults.

Which sounds nice and all.. but instead of actually contributing anything, you just kept throwing out shit. "You're misinformed" was the first thing you said, and it took further probing to get anything on why out.. I didn't see many lists posted to discredit the list Gavroche's using currently.. Just seems like you're in here annoyed and tossing clothes out of a closet instead of looking for an outfit. Your tone just seems, from an outside perspective, to be trollish. That's all I'm pointing out. It wasn't meant to be offensive.

 

[Catharsis]

Which sounds nice and all.. but instead of actually contributing anything, you just kept throwing out shit. "You're misinformed" was the first thing you said, and it took further probing to get anything on why out.. I didn't see many lists posted to discredit the list Gavroche's using currently.. Just seems like you're in here annoyed and tossing clothes out of a closet instead of looking for an outfit. Your tone just seems, from an outside perspective, to be trollish. That's all I'm pointing out. It wasn't meant to be offensive.

I thought I was clear from the start why I disagreed. And apart from the list Speed Gavroche uses, I haven't seen any other.

 

[kyuuei]

:/ Rly. "My point is... there's not really a "dissonance" going on... It isn't a dissonance because they do desire a place where they fit in, they just want to fit in with those who are as elite as they are."

To say that anyone would find a group of "elite" people to fit the bill and never potentially have the struggle of socializing with and balancing out these desires with the rest of the normies in society that won't fit the bill isn't 'dissonance'... makes it seem like you're just arguing to argue..

Then you throw out a superficial accusation. Having only 71 posts here, I'll feel it safe to assume you don't know elfboy at all.. most of what he says in OPs isn't to be taken too seriously. He's perfectly content with talking about light-hearted, superficial, and sometimes backwards things. Which isnt' really wrong. So again, seems like you're just stirring a pot.

Then after that, the list thing.

I know you don't really see it.. I was hoping to throw it out in a bit more light-hearted way. Forget I mentioned it if it hurts your feelings.. /derailing this poor thread.

 

[brainheart]

Seemed to me more like people were taking what elf boy says too literally vs reading between the lines, that's how I'd interpret it. It's that nit-picking that goes on with some people. Nothing too crazy.

 

[Catharsis]

:/ Rly. "My point is... there's not really a "dissonance" going on... It isn't a dissonance because they do desire a place where they fit in, they just want to fit in with those who are as elite as they are."

To say that anyone would find a group of "elite" people to fit the bill and never potentially have the struggle of socializing with and balancing out these desires with the rest of the normies in society that won't fit the bill isn't 'dissonance'... makes it seem like you're just arguing to argue..

Dissonance between type 4's desire to have identity and the social instinct of belonging to something bigger than yourself, not being discontent with hanging out with the "normies", is what I was talking about the whole time and what I thought the original post was about: The primary fear and desire of each type in conflict with the instincts. That's why I wouldn't recognize it as "dissonance", and sorry if it wasn't clear, because I thought it was.

Then you throw out a superficial accusation.

What was it?

 

[brainheart]

/derailing this poor thread.

Poor, poor thread...
Sniff

 

[kyuuei]

Yes, I understood that from your original post, but that is only true on a superficial level.

This one. Completely invalidates the entire OP.

 

[Elfboy]

Hold up...

you are partially correct, that post was the straw that broke the camel's back (or rather made it let out a cry of pain before returning to it's previous position) but truthfully it was a trend of several comments from several users of people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when they either misunderstand what I'm saying, are actually wrong, or when I am proposing a theory and know full well that it is just a hypothesis that I am looking for outside information on. that being said, Chana's posts in the past have definitely been in the "condescendingly telling Elfboy he doesn't know what he's talking about about and implying that he's stupid despite not understanding the point he was trying to make at all". still, it's unfair for me to blame one person, it just gets old having to defend every single semantic detail and general correlationI I propose because people instantly assume I'm stupid. I suppose in the real world, all I have to do to get people to listen to me is be confident and say "excuse me but I wasn't finished speaking" but online I have to go Ne/Te bitchslap on their ass because I can't use my confident IRL presence to stand up for myself for me. even if I am wing 8 and enjoy occasional conflict, it does get old fighting the same battle 700 times

 

[Catharsis]

This one. Completely invalidates the entire OP.

How is that an accusation? I'm arguing based on my knowledge of the enneagram, and I thought I had explained why it was like that in my previous posts.

 

[Elfboy]

Dissonance between type 4's desire to have identity and the social instinct of belonging to something bigger than yourself, not being discontent with hanging out with the "normies", is what I was talking about the whole time and what I thought the original post was about: The primary fear and desire of each type in conflict with the instincts. That's why I wouldn't recognize it as "dissonance", and sorry if it wasn't clear, because I thought it was.
What was it?

are you saying this entire disagreement was over wording? based on your comment about irony, I'd say that's likely the case

 

[brainheart]

you are partially correct, that post was the straw that broke the camel's back (or rather made it let out a cry of pain before returning to it's previous position) but truthfully it was a trend of several comments from several users of people telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when they either misunderstand what I'm saying, are actually wrong, or when I am proposing a theory and know full well that it is just a hypothesis that I am looking for outside information on. that being said, Chana's posts in the past have definitely been in the "condescendingly telling Elfboy he doesn't know what he's talking about about and implying that he's stupid despite not understanding the point he was trying to make at all". still, it's unfair for me to blame one person, it just gets old having to defend every single semantic detail and general correlationI I propose because people instantly assume I'm stupid. I suppose in the real world, all I have to do to get people to listen to me is be confident and say "excuse me but I wasn't finished speaking" but online I have to go Ne/Te bitchslap on their ass because I can't use my confident IRL presence to stand up for myself for me. even if I am wing 8 and enjoy occasional conflict, it does get old fighting the same battle 700 times

You know, elfboy, I disagree with your subjective assessment of how other people's posts made you feel. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[Catharsis]

are you saying this entire disagreement was over wording? based on your comment about irony, I'd say that's likely the case

When I read your post, I assumed it was about your type and your instinct desiring opposite things, causing "dissonance".

 

[brainheart]

How is that an accusation? I'm arguing based on my knowledge of the enneagram, and I thought I had explained why it was like that in my previous posts.

To be fair, I considered all of this to be pretty typical of thread talk, the spirit of argument. I wasn't offended.

 

[kyuuei]

.. Let me step back again maybe.

1. You make a post that isn't really extremely helpful one way or the other. You argue, but your counter argument could still easily be taken as dissonance, using the example I demonstrated.
2. You imply there's no way elfboy is right, and that his OP is too superficial.
3. You echo chana's very passionate post.
4. Elfboy EMOTIONALLY reacts to it.
5. You then start to attack another member's evidence and foundations in their post.

If that isn't troll-like behavior, I don't know what is. I'm not saying you're some spiteful, soul-less ginger kid trolling to make up for the fact that people stole your milk money today. I'm just saying you came into a light hearted discussion, guns pointed at everyone, and then got defensive when I called you out on it. I never said you were trolling on purpose--just that you were looking like it. That's. It. It's not meant to be anything to defend yourself about-- I don't really care if you were trolling or not. I was just saying you looked like you were.

 

[chickpea]

i understand the general points you try to make, but they usually show very little thought and have a lot of flaws in them. i mean i assume at least half of them are just thrown out there because you like the attention, but i don't know why you post them at all if you can't handle people contradicting you and take it all personally. you oversimplify all of this theory and change it around to fit what sounds good to you at the time. sorry for having a problem with stupidity sitting around going unchallenged because people are like 'oh it's just elfboy doing the usual.'

plus you're just hella easy to get riled up and it's funny

 

[Elfboy]

i understand the general points you try to make, but they usually show very little thought and have a lot of flaws in them. i mean i assume at least half of them are just thrown out there because you like the attention, but i don't know why you post them at all if you can't handle people contradicting you and take it all personally. you oversimplify all of this theory and change it around to fit what sounds good to you at the time. sorry for having a problem with stupidity sitting around going unchallenged because people are like 'oh it's just elfboy doing the usual.'

you just did it again. in this single post you've accused me of
- being an attention whore
- oversimplification (I bring up simple points, that is different from oversimplifying)
- being too general and not understanding the more complicated aspects of things (if I don't understand the complicated stuff, I pose it as a theory, if I do, I bring up simple points. starting with a simple point spurs the initial conversation that can lead to a more complicated point without lecturing)
- being an idiot
- making obscenely ignorant generalizations when I'm only pointing out possible correlations

I don't mind your disagreeing with me, I mind the fact that you continual manage to imply every single one of these accusations in a single short post (almost every single one of them) and misunderstand everything I say in the process. do you honestly not see the obscene amounts of ad hominem in your responses to me?
if you think I'm unable to handle objective criticism, just ask Savage Idealist, Speed or any user that prove me wrong all the time. I only ask that you quit being so damn condescending and not assume I'm an ignorant dumbass every time you disagree with me

 

[Catharsis]

.. Let me step back again maybe.

1. You make a post that isn't really extremely helpful one way or the other. You argue, but your counter argument could still easily be taken as dissonance, using the example I demonstrated.
2. You imply there's no way elfboy is right, and that his OP is too superficial.
3. You echo chana's very passionate post.
4. Elfboy EMOTIONALLY reacts to it.
5. You then start to attack another member's evidence and foundations in their post.

If that isn't troll-like behavior, I don't know what is. I'm not saying you're some spiteful, soul-less ginger kid trolling to make up for the fact that people stole your milk money today. I'm just saying you came into a light hearted discussion, guns pointed at everyone, and then got defensive when I called you out on it. I never said you were trolling on purpose--just that you were looking like it. That's. It. It's not meant to be anything to defend yourself about-- I don't really care if you were trolling or not. I was just saying you looked like you were.

So, basically:

- I didn't make myself clear enough
- This thread's intent wasn't a very serious one
- I was simply curious why he put so much faith in that list, which was perceived as an attack on his credibility

I never thought I was accusatory or attacking anyone, sorry for any misunderstandings.

 

[chickpea]

you just did it again. in this single post you've accused me of
- being an attention whore
- oversimplification (I bring up simple points, that is different from oversimplifying)
- being too general and not understanding the more complicated aspects of things (if I don't understand the complicated stuff, I pose it as a theory, if I do, I bring up simple points. starting with a simple point spurs the initial conversation that can lead to a more complicated point without lecturing)
- being an idiot
- making obscenely ignorant generalizations when I'm only pointing out possible correlations

I don't mind your disagreeing with me, I mind the fact that you continual manage to imply every single one of these accusations in a single short post and misunderstand every I say in the process. do you honestly not see the obscene amounts of ad hominem in your responses to me?
if you think I'm unable to handle objective criticism, just ask Savage Idealist, Speed or any user that prove me wrong all the time. I only ask that you quit being so damn condescending and not assume I'm an ignorant dumbass every time you disagree with me

call em how i see em

 

[Elfboy]

So, basically:

- I didn't make myself clear enough
- This thread's intent wasn't a very serious one
- I was simply curious why he put so much faith in that list, which was perceived as an attack on his credibility

I never thought I was accusatory or attacking anyone, sorry for any misunderstandings.

you're fine, the only thing you did wrong was accuse me of being ignorant and superficial based off of a disagreement on the word "dissonance". under normal circumstances, I would have handled it much better, the fault is partially mine
PS: have you considered if maybe you're an INFJ? this thread seems like Ni/Ti vs Ne/Fi/Te to me

 

[Elfboy]

call em how i see em

1) you just did it again
2) no you're not, you don't want to take the time to debate your points rationally to you condescendingly right me off and accuse me of the above. frankly, this quote is a lie