User Tag List

First 3456 Last

Results 41 to 50 of 51

  1. #41
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Enneagram
    4 so/sp
    Posts
    6,931

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Southern Kross View Post
    I wouldn't doubt it just yet as most people seem to have confused SO with extroversion or being FJ.
    Not only this, but I think too people are confusing so with both Fe and/OR Si. Especially with regards to social 'manners' and etiquette as tied to eating and the like. Many mannerisms are actually more tied to Si, as Si provides that link to tradition and doing things as has always been done, or as one was raised to do... I've used this example before, but my ISTJ mother is probably one of the most anal people when it comes to things like Table Manners. I heard those sorts of corrections all of the time growing up. Now, my mother MAY be so-aux -- I really don't know -- but she's also one of the most clueless people socially. She embarassed me to no end growing up because she could be so tactless and unaware of how to interact with people or 'read' people/groups. So this would point to her being so-last, given what many in this thread are saying about what it means to be so-last. And yet she's very set on 'proper' etiquette when it comes to running a household, eating together as a family, etc... and I actually think there are big positives to this as well, so I don't mean to convey it as totally negative.

    (and fwiw, I'm so-aux, I believe, and I would often roll my eyes at her table reminders to me.. so I really don't care about a lot of that stuff) However, the doing-things-together-as-a-family/group? I think that was very positive, looking back at it.
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

    My Photography and Watercolor Fine Art Prints!!! Cascade Colors Fine Art Prints
    https://docs.google.com/uc?export=do...Gd5N3NZZE52QjQ

  2. #42
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    937 so/sx
    Posts
    6,226

    Default

    ^ that ties into what I have been thinking about this too, in combo with SK and ZBuck ...

    It's not about the rules per se, it's an awareness you sense that somehow, somewhere rules are being broken or trodden upon. And an awareness that these rules vary from group to group. And kind of investing in understanding them, navigating them? For me, as an INFP 9 so-dom, it's about looking at the makeup of each individual, and how they contribute to the dynamic and seeing how they contribute as pieces to the overall puzzle. And seeing what picture the puzzle pieces might make before the puzzle is even finished?

    Thinking back, when I was in my twenties, I wouldn't know what group "rule" I might be breaking myself, or I wouldn't understand what glue kept a certain group together - but I would know I had somehow stepped on an unspoken rule, and I would know there was glue. It's like a radar for what's going on, even if you don't understand it all in an instant - in fact no, you put it together over time with observation and intuition. It's sensing all the currents in the water, even if you can't always identify their source.

    As I get older and more practiced I see more, can affect more and execute with more competence.

    Maybe Fi gives an advantage to identifying the group underdogs, and Fe an advantage to identifying the group leadership?? ... hmmm, just thinking out loud to try to define this fuzzy space better. Fi will "see" when Fi rules are broken, and Fe likewise. As an Fi dom so-dom, I invest time to understand the Fe rules, maybe moreso than most other INFP's (do you feel that way too SK?) and try to avoid breaking those rules, esp IRL. (Here on the forum, sometimes it's a good thing to show the Fi side, whereas IRL, with Te and Fe the more dominant, accepted functions, one must use wise skills when choosing to reveal Fi.)

    Like, I am drawn, somehow wired to try to understand; I need to "get it" and it interests me to figure it out. Maybe part of the impetus for that comes from being so-dom.

    It's not a 100% foolproof technique though, and sometimes I push at the edges ...

    I know this is a bit of a derail, and perhaps deserves it's own thread, but how to phrase it? Will think on that - anyone else is welcome to beat me to it though and make the thread before I do!
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  3. #43
    Senior Member King sns's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    MBTI
    enfp
    Enneagram
    6w7 sp/sx
    Socionics
    IEE
    Posts
    6,747

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ that ties into what I have been thinking about this too, in combo with SK and ZBuck ...

    It's not about the rules per se, it's an awareness you sense that somehow, somewhere rules are being broken or trodden upon. And an awareness that these rules vary from group to group. And kind of investing in understanding them, navigating them? For me, as an INFP 9 so-dom, it's about looking at the makeup of each individual, and how they contribute to the dynamic and seeing how they contribute as pieces to the overall puzzle. And seeing what picture the puzzle pieces might make before the puzzle is even finished?

    Thinking back, when I was in my twenties, I wouldn't know what group "rule" I might be breaking myself, or I wouldn't understand what glue kept a certain group together - but I would know I had somehow stepped on an unspoken rule, and I would know there was glue. It's like a radar for what's going on, even if you don't understand it all in an instant - in fact no, you put it together over time with observation and intuition. It's sensing all the currents in the water, even if you can't always identify their source.

    As I get older and more practiced I see more, can affect more and execute with more competence.

    Maybe Fi gives an advantage to identifying the group underdogs, and Fe an advantage to identifying the group leadership?? ... hmmm, just thinking out loud to try to define this fuzzy space better. Fi will "see" when Fi rules are broken, and Fe likewise. As an Fi dom so-dom, I feel like I invest time to understand the Fe rules moreso than most other INFP's here, and try to avoid breaking those rules. Like, I am drawn to understand, I need to "get it" and it interests me to figure it out. Maybe part of the drive for that comes from being so-dom.

    It's not a 100% foolproof technique though, and sometimes I push at the edges ...

    I know this is a bit of a derail, and perhaps deserves it's own thread, but how to phrase it? Will think on that - anyone else is welcome to beat me to it though and make the thread before I do!
    No, this is a fine type of response to this thread. I'm not picky.
    06/13 10:51:03 five sounds: you!!!
    06/13 10:51:08 shortnsweet: no you!!
    06/13 10:51:12 shortnsweet: go do your things and my things too!
    06/13 10:51:23 five sounds: oh hell naw
    06/13 10:51:55 shortnsweet: !!!!
    06/13 10:51:57 shortnsweet: (cries)
    06/13 10:52:19 RiftsWRX: You two are like furbies stuck in a shoe box

    My Nohari
    My Johari
    by sns.

  4. #44
    Iron Maiden fidelia's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1w2 so/sx
    Posts
    11,132

    Default

    This is an interesting discussion. I'm 1w2?so/sx. For me, my introversion probably also causes both Fe and so dom a little differently. I don't really identify with a bunch of the examples that people are associating with the so variant. I think they may be associating it with Fe+ another function working together.

    To me, I think being an so/sx causes me to be more interested in how people relate to each other, what the interconnections are and makes me curious to discover what I can about individuals as well as how they vary when in the group. I tend to be interested in cataloguing in my mind who the different people on here are and what their story is and who their other friends would be and what motivates them etc. I feel better having them in file folders in the filing cabinet of my mind, even though I would be most happy to refile them, if given more information. I like adding to my body of knowledge about people generally, as well as how individual people make sense of the world and operate in it. I suppose this may be partially motivated by wanting to know what behaviour to expect from them, but I also enjoy the social exchange even in temporary encounters even though I tend to be the sort of person that really has a few close friends instead of a million acquaintances.

    I notice that not all INFJs seems to be geared in exactly the same way, even though we share commonalities in many areas, so I'm assuming that some element of that is so/sx influence.

  5. #45
    mod love baby... Lady_X's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    9w1 sx/so
    Posts
    18,086

    Default

    i think i do but i can't tell... :/
    There can’t be any large-scale revolution until there’s a personal revolution, on an individual level. It’s got to happen inside first.
    -Jim Morrison

  6. #46
    Away with the fairies Southern Kross's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    MBTI
    INFP
    Enneagram
    4w5 so/sp
    Posts
    2,912

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by cascadeco View Post
    Not only this, but I think too people are confusing so with both Fe and/OR Si. Especially with regards to social 'manners' and etiquette as tied to eating and the like.
    Yeah, that's probably true. I see social etiquette and so as unrelated.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    It's not about the rules per se, it's an awareness you sense that somehow, somewhere rules are being broken or trodden upon. And an awareness that these rules vary from group to group. And kind of investing in understanding them, navigating them?
    Hmm, I must say 'rules' don't interest me much at all. I feel like its something more fundamental than that. For me it is more of a consciousnesses of what is hoped for, needed or expected of me and others, even when people don't even know they're putting that out there. I think social rules can form around these ideas but not always.

    Maybe Fi gives an advantage to identifying the group underdogs, and Fe an advantage to identifying the group leadership?? ... hmmm, just thinking out loud to try to define this fuzzy space better. Fi will "see" when Fi rules are broken, and Fe likewise.
    I can't speak for Fe but this may be close for Fi. I'm interested in counteracting imbalance and inequality, rather than maintaining any perceived balance. I dislike seeing people left out or belittled, and am more focused on making them feel secure and valued, rather than dealing with power players etc. I'm rarely about making others adhere to a social standard unless I see an Fi value broken. For example, when I go out to dinner with my parents, my Mum often starts arguing with my Dad loudly enough for others to hear, and I tend to snap angrily at her to be quiet. I can't stand people arguing in public; I find it highly rude and rather embarrassing if it happens to be your parents. Its a Fi+so value that prompts me to take action. As an aside my Mum is an ISFJ Mum and therefore SiFe, and she has no scruples about behaving that way - which further undercuts the assumption that so is equated with Fe and/or Si.

    As an Fi dom so-dom, I invest time to understand the Fe rules, maybe moreso than most other INFP's (do you feel that way too SK?) and try to avoid breaking those rules, esp IRL.
    Hmmm, not really. Perhaps that is more of a 9 thing? I don't try to learn them but I feel an instinctive awareness of some of them. I often experience a weight of expectation that I feel incapable of living up to, and rather resent. My 4w5 so response to Fe rules is to withdraw and avoid the feelings of inadequacy. It makes sense that the e4 so instinct is "shame". Of course I still adapt my behaviour to social situations and more so than the average INFP. I tone down aspects of myself that are considered inappropriate and present myself in a way that is more appealing to the person I'm talking to. It does feel burdensome though, and I very much dislike doing it, yet I feel compelled to do so out of politeness and consideration for others. At the same time I guess I'm still an advocate for people to sometimes just shut up and put up. It irritates me when people selfishly prioritise the expression of their petty feelings and their rigid sense of individuality, above politeness and respect for others. Its like with my Mum arguing in a restaurant; her anger shouldn't take precedence over respect for other diners. This is all within reason though - politeness always takes a backseat to moral uprightness.
    INFP 4w5 so/sp

    I've dreamt in my life dreams that have stayed with me ever after, and changed my ideas;
    they've gone through and through me, like wine through water, and altered the colour of my mind.

    - Emily Bronte

  7. #47
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Enneagram
    5w4 sx/sp
    Posts
    3,689

    Default

    From this site:

    The Social instinct is driven towards gaining protection and empowerment within larger entities. Soc's typically react strongly against anything which would jeopardize or displace their position or reputation.
    From here:

    The subtype is determined by whether you are unconsciously preoccupied with personal survival (self-preservation), whether you incline towards one-to-one relationships (intimate) or whether your style of relating includes a lot of people (social)."
    My understanding from reading the descriptions available online is that so variant is an unconscious drive that inclines people to want to feel part of a larger group.

    I think the point here is that they do seem to have more of a handle on social convention (what it is and the purpose of it). Like PB wrote, if I’m understanding her post correctly. This isn’t to say it’s done mindlessly- even the urge to want everyone to eat at the same time isn’t necessarily mindless or arbitrary, it definitely gives a very tangible feeling of community. But not everyone craves that sense of community. And it can *seem* arbitrary to people who don’t inherently crave the same sense of community. This is a point I tried making earlier, and I don’t think I did/am doing a very good job. Even the most mindful, most thoughtful of expectations can seem arbitrary to someone with different unconscious drives- and it goes both ways. I’d be interested in hearing how least sp variants feel about dealing with sp dominants, because there are bound to be just as many issues in that direction as well. (And then we can show up and be all like “it’s not that we don’t care about the group or others…”)

    I think a part of the problem here is perhaps that least so variants are saying the expectations- which can be completely reasonable and thoughtful, coming from an so variant standpoint- can *seem* arbitrary and confining from a least so point of view. This is the ‘memo’ that we’re not getting: why is a group feeling so important, what makes this convention necessary/helpful, what’s the point? Since it doesn’t fill some need in us as it does for so variants- it can *appear* arbitrary, if we project our own unconscious drives into it. And I could be wrong, but it seems like so variants are reading this opinion and- attaching their own experiential associations of ‘arbitrary social expectations’ (and, thusly, Fe)- trying to point out that so variant isn’t about Fe style arbitrary social rules. And rightly so, it isn’t, from an so variant standpoint. It seems to me that maybe what the so variants aren’t understanding is that we’re trying to describe a special sensitivity to the arbitrariness- coming from an existential position where the unconscious drive to feel like a member of the broader group is particularly weak.

    Anytime there are people dealing with each other- there are rules of engagement coming into play. Even someone with the weakest of so variants will still- on some level- feel the need to be part of a group, and will therefore pay *some* attention to these rules. The ‘arbitrariness’ of these rules is completely relative to an individual. And if so variant isn’t at least in part about paying more attention to what these rules are (or should be)- enough to feel like an appreciated member of a group/community- then I don’t understand what it is. I mean, I don’t understand the argument that so variant isn’t related to paying attention to ‘manners’ and etiquette. There’s a difference between extremely shallow etiquette and more thought-out, purposeful etiquette- but to argue that it isn’t related to etiquette or paying attention to ‘rules’ at all doesn’t make sense to me. How can someone- whose primary unconscious drive is to feel like a member of a larger group- not be interested in rules that hold a group together? Again- this isn’t to say that the ‘rules’ are swallowed whole in the exact form they are received, it’s possible for the interest in rules to take the form of questioning them. But I don’t see how it’s possible to be so variant and be largely impervious to them. I think the difference between these two things might look like this:

    So variant thinks: “I don’t see why it should reflect on someone’s character, when it comes right down to it, whether or not they hold their fork correctly at the dinner table.”
    Least so variant: *is impervious to having just offended someone by holding fork wrong way at dinner table, and doesn’t even particularly care- in the chance it should get pointed out- unless the person who pointed it out is especially relevant*

    I’m open to disagreement on this^, if someone thinks it’s off.




    I also want to clarify something I wrote earlier. “And it seems like least so variant FJs can be just as rigid, but the expectations we get rigid about are more personalized/specific.” I didn’t mean to imply that so variant Fe’ers don’t make personalized/specific expectations for individuals they know- it’s just that I *think* it’s a LOT more localized in least so variants. I’ll throw all that personalizing energy into just a few people (the sx aux probably)- I don’t spread it out amongst as many people as an so variant might. I’m pretty sure it’s exactly why this sp/sx description includes “Others can be taken aback by how suddenly and completely this type can lock into them, and by the depth of understanding of the other's condition. They attach to others at an organic, root level, in contrast to the other subvariant's surface formality.” I just wanted to make clear: I didn’t mean to imply that so variants aren’t likely to form personalized expectations for individuals they know.
    Reality is a collective hunch. -Lily Tomlin

    5w4 sx/sp Johari / Nohari

  8. #48
    Occasional Member Evan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    MBTI
    INFJ
    Enneagram
    1
    Posts
    4,223

    Default

    I'm sx/sp I think, and I really appreciate so first people. I think I use them to bring new people to me

  9. #49

    Default

    I interact mainly in two ways I reckon, one to one or a kind of performance to a group. Other than those I am in my head. Make sense? People that push things and use the group as a reason do nothing to move me, the group seems like an irrelevant abstraction.

    Then there is a part of me that idolises the perfect group though. The perfect crew, like Jackie Chan's stunt team or The A Team.

    It's complex.

  10. #50
    Senior Member Chiharu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    MBTI
    ENFP
    Enneagram
    7w6 sx/so
    Socionics
    ENFp None
    Posts
    681

    Default

    I find so Js to be pretty irritating at worst and odd at best. "Why do you care?" seems to remain on repeat in my head throughout our interaction.
    Be soft. Do not let the world make you hard. Do not let pain make you hate. Do not let the bitterness steal your sweetness." ― Kurt Vonnegut

    ENFP. 7w6 – 4w3 – 1w9 sx/so. Aries. Dilettante. Overly anxious optimist.

Similar Threads

  1. People who have a polarizing effect
    By SilkRoad in forum Myers-Briggs and Jungian Cognitive Functions
    Replies: 66
    Last Post: 05-17-2011, 01:35 PM
  2. [MBTItm] do you distant yourself from people who have seen you naked?
    By Rebe in forum The NF Idyllic (ENFP, INFP, ENFJ, INFJ)
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 03-23-2010, 01:14 PM
  3. People who have fought for you
    By Gamine in forum The Bonfire
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: 02-21-2010, 05:19 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
Single Sign On provided by vBSSO