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  1. #11
    brainheart
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    Well that's why the parental orientation seems like it would be key when it comes to enneagram. Starts with your primary relationships, how you perceived them, and how you coped. I think your enneagram is kind of your personality crutch, what you rely on for stability. But you wouldn't need it if you weren't injured. So as you become healthier, less reliant on that crutch, you transform into something not confined by type. So a healthier person is going to seem less the type, more difficult to type. It would seem, anyway.

  2. #12
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evan View Post
    What is the "real" us anyway?
    That's the debate -- are we discovered, or constructed, or some combination of both? And to what degree? And how would we figure this out?
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

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  3. #13
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp

    The above is the history of enneagram which includes this Ichazo concept:

    As we saw in Chapter 1, we all inevitably lose contact with the ground of our Being, with our true identity as Spirit or Essence.
    But if you read this, it's conflicting:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp

    Everyone emerges from childhood with one of the nine types dominating their personality, with inborn temperament and other pre-natal factors being the main determinants of our type. This is one area where most all of the major Enneagram authors agree—we are born with a dominant type. Subsequently, this inborn orientation largely determines the ways in which we learn to adapt to our early childhood environment. It also seems to lead to certain unconscious orientations toward our parental figures, but why this is so, we still do not know. In any case, by the time children are four or five years old, their consciousness has developed sufficiently to have a separate sense of self. Although their identity is still very fluid, at this age children begin to establish themselves and find ways of fitting into the world on their own.
    I cannot buy into the "spirituality" aspect of Enneagram which is sourced from a number of religions. This concept or architecture is reflected in its health levels.

  4. #14
    Administrator highlander's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/history.asp

    The above is the history of enneagram which includes this Ichazo concept:



    But if you read this, it's conflicting:

    http://www.enneagraminstitute.com/intro.asp



    I cannot buy into the "spirituality" aspect of Enneagram which is sourced from a number of religions. This concept or architecture is reflected in its health levels.
    That does seem to be conflicting doesn't it. I tend to think of MBTI type as largely inborn and Enneagram as largely shaped by environment.

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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That does seem to be conflicting doesn't it. I tend to think of MBTI type as largely inborn and Enneagram as largely shaped by environment.
    I tend to think of MBTI type as variable and Enneatype as invariable. We can change our MBTI type but not our Enneatype, basically.
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  6. #16
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    That does seem to be conflicting doesn't it. I tend to think of MBTI type as largely inborn and Enneagram as largely shaped by environment.
    When it comes to the total concept of either, I have issues with both. But at least Jung doesn't try to "shape" anyone back to their "spiritual essence". He just informs from observations, the commonalities between people, creating loose categorisations.

    This is why I only look to enneagram for its observations. The rest is moot and to be frank, frou-frou.

  7. #17
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by highlander View Post
    I've been learning a little on Enneagram lately and recently read/heard that we are not really our Enneagram type. It is a "learned personality." Our type is just a template that we fit into. It's not the real us. It's a distortion or immature development of our true and basic nature.

    By understanding our type and how that manifests itself in our daily lives, we gain greater self awareness and move towards freeing ourselves from the tyranny of how we overcompensate. We gain an appreciation for our default way of responding and are able to observe how we react from an outside perspective, considering things in a broader context. We learn to have more compassion for ourselves, begin to acknowledge our gifts more fully and better appreciate our own inner wisdom.

    I wonder how some of this might relate to MBTI or functions.

    Any reactions on this?
    My immediate response is to think that it's total mumbo-jumbo, and to want to go off and fulfill my type stereotype by quitting typology altogether and playing some football!! :workout:

    ... Mostly because anything about "you" not being the "real" you tends to strike me as pretentious. I am who I am, and it's that simple.
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  8. #18
    this is my winter song EJCC's Avatar
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    Also, any time I see anything about nature vs. nature that tries to make the answer one extreme or another, I want to shout to the rafters: "It's a little bit of both, and if you don't believe me, ask science!!!!"
    ~ g e t f e s t i v e ! ~


    EJCC: "The Big Questions in my life right now: 1) What am I willing to live with? 2) What do I have to live with? 3) What can I change for the better?"
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  9. #19
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    i tend to think that neither defines us, but neither is likely to change, either.

    sort of like not liking a certain flavor of ice cream, or tending to sleep on the right side of the bed. doesn't really matter in terms of your identity, but it's probably not gonna change overnight.

    i see enneatype changing more easily than MBTI, though, if only because i have a hard time relating to any enneatype.

  10. #20
    Vaguely Precise Seymour's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jenaphor View Post
    I cannot buy into the "spirituality" aspect of Enneagram which is sourced from a number of religions. This concept or architecture is reflected in its health levels.
    I don't think you have to buy into the "spirituality" angle to find value in the enneagram. The enneagram types represent patterns of deeply ingrained, habitual defense mechanisms. Like all defense mechanisms, they have utility and serve (or served) a valuable purpose. However, they become problematic when they are engaged unconsciously and reactively. Those defenses, when too often engaged, stand in the way of intimacy and become self-defeating.

    The goal is to become aware of those defense mechanisms and to be able to choose when and how to engage your defenses, rather than merely reacting. Meditation is often mentioned with the enneagram, because meditation trains one to be more aware of one's reactions without being swept away by them, thereby expanding the possibility of choice.

    I agree, though, there's plenty of woo-woo around the enneagram, which can be a turn-off for some of us.

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