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  1. #81
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Actually I was wrong. Johnny is really 4w5 Sx/Sp.
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  2. #82
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    yeah, the books/video portrayals of joan of arc that i've read/watched make her seem very Fi, and 1w9 seems right as well. even though she was patriotic and whatnot she was completely defying laws and social conventions of the time, and her visions/messages from god were very individual. identifying the real dauphin in a crowd is also very FiNe.

  3. #83
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    yeah, the books/video portrayals of joan of arc that i've read/watched make her seem very Fi, and 1w9 seems right as well. even though she was patriotic and whatnot she was completely defying laws and social conventions of the time, and her visions/messages from god were very individual. identifying the real dauphin in a crowd is also very FiNe.
    agreed. Joan of Arc was not SJ or FJ at all. no ESFJ woman in the 14th century would be that unconventional. Joan of Arc is usually listed as 1w2, but 1w2s are more grounded, service oriented and people centric. 1w9s are the true idealists of the enneagram who see an ideal world and seek to create it.
    ENFP: We put the Fi in Fire
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  4. #84
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    and 1w9 seems right as well.
    No. She has no moral expectations. She has not issue in believing "there's one perfect way to do everything", like 1s. She was all about "us against them" and fidelity to god and the king, with a powerfull imagination: 6

    . identifying the real dauphin in a crowd is also very FiNe.
    It is above all 6. Like I said, the 6's intuition reside in their powerful imagination and their leanings to develop antenna wich permit them to survive in a dangerous environment. One of thei biggest presumption is that people can be dangerous because the image they project is different than their true self, potentially dangerous, so they develop antenna, and when they are well develop, they have a powerfull intuition wich help them to really scan the difference between the image projected by people and their true self. This is why she identified the true dauphin.

    no ESFJ woman in the 14th century would be that unconventional.

    Prejudice. And she was conventional, as a child she was an hyperactive religious who always followed what the church and the pretor said, never miss any confessions etc.

    Joan of Arc is usually listed as 1w2
    No.

    1w9s are the true idealists of the enneagram who see an ideal world and seek to create it.
    She had not specific ideal, she just wanted to obey to god, serve the kingdom and chase the british.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  5. #85
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    No. She has no moral expectations. She has not issue in believing "there's one perfect way to do everything", like 1s. She was all about "us against them" and fidelity to god and the king, with a powerfull imagination: 6


    It is above all 6. Like I said, the 6's intuition reside in their powerful imagination and their leanings to develop antenna wich permit them to survive in a dangerous environment. One of thei biggest presumption is that people can be dangerous because the image they project is different than their true self, potentially dangerous, so they develop antenna, and when they are well develop, they have a powerfull intuition wich help them to really scan the difference between the image projected by people and their true self. This is why she identified the true dauphin.




    Prejudice. And she was conventional, as a child she was an hyperactive religious who always followed what the church and the pretor said, never miss any confessions etc.



    No.



    She had not specific ideal, she just wanted to obey to god, serve the kingdom and chase the british.
    conventional 17 year old girls don't hear visions from God, dress up as a male and lead an army to several consistant victories without prior military experience, nor do they challenge the authority of the catholic church if they live in 15th century France. I don't have any of her most memerable lines memorized, but all of her famous quotes I've read were Fi/Ne as hell.
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  6. #86
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    I said she was conventional as a child, not then. But I see you have nothing to say about the rest, wich means that you agree.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  7. #87
    i love skylights's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    No. She has no moral expectations. She has not issue in believing "there's one perfect way to do everything", like 1s. She was all about "us against them" and fidelity to god and the king, with a powerfull imagination: 6
    was she, though? the book i remember reading as a child about her portrayed her as very concerned about right and wrong, from the very beginning. the testimonies given after her death talked about what a pious and dutiful child she was in the village she grew up in, and how she masterfully completed her household tasks. she was working in her family's garden when the voice first came to her. after the first voice, she swore two things - to stay a virgin and to be obedient to the voices, who she believed linked her to god. this all seems heavily moral, and lacking 6 doubt and questioning. her first promise after hearing a voice in her head was to not question. she argued with them, but i do not remember much discussion of her questioning their nature. she also did not really care about country or the king because of anything besides her loyalty to her voices. i have generally seen the dauphin pictured as a bit of a prick, and joan needing to give him a little ass-kick to get him to actually be productive.

    i could be wrong - like i said, that's just from what i have seen and viewed. certainly not professional research nor exhaustive sources.

    It is above all 6. Like I said, the 6's intuition reside in their powerful imagination and their leanings to develop antenna wich permit them to survive in a dangerous environment. One of thei biggest presumption is that people can be dangerous because the image they project is different than their true self, potentially dangerous, so they develop antenna, and when they are well develop, they have a powerfull intuition wich help them to really scan the difference between the image projected by people and their true self. This is why she identified the true dauphin.
    or because she was NFP with well-attuned Ne and Fi. to some extent almost any NFP can point out an oddball in a crowd. i wouldn't be surprised if all NFs have a certain degree of skill at this. we work in energy fields... intuitive people-oriented "atmosphere" reading.

    And she was conventional, as a child she was an hyperactive religious who always followed what the church and the pretor said, never miss any confessions etc.
    but that leads you more to 6 than 1? if the church is defining "good" in joan's life, and she is a 1, it is no surprise she would follow them to a T.

    i see what you mean that she could be a 6 but the portrayals of her i have read and viewed frame her as most deeply motivated by the moral cause. one would think a 6 would be more inclined to fight for the sake of protecting the people, but i'm not convinced she really cared about the specific people or country much, it sounds like she cared most about doing what was right by her god.

    On Tuesday, May 29, 1431, the judges, after hearing Cauchon's report, condemned Joan as a relapsed heretic and delivered her to the English. The next morning at eight o'clock she was led out into the market place of Rouen to be burned at the stake. As the faggots were lighted, a Dominican friar, at her request, held up a cross before her eyes and, while the flames leapt higher and higher, she was heard to call on the name of Jesus.
    To circumvent this possibility, the Dauphin ordered background inquiries and a theological examination at Poitiers to verify her morality. In April 1429, the commission of inquiry "declared her to be of irreproachable life, a good Christian, possessed of the virtues of humility, honesty and simplicity."
    "Prince of Burgundy, I pray of you — I beg and humbly supplicate — that you make no more war with the holy kingdom of France. Withdraw your people swiftly from certain places and fortresses of this holy kingdom, and on behalf of the gentle king of France I say he is ready to make peace with you, by his honor."
    Joan of Arc rejected the cautious strategy that had characterized French leadership during previous campaigns. During the five months of siege before her arrival, the defenders of Orléans had attempted only one aggressive move and that had ended in disaster
    i dunno, it just all seems up 1's alley.

    though this strikes me as 6ish -

    The [trial record]'s most famous exchange is an exercise in subtlety. "Asked if she knew she was in God's grace, she answered: 'If I am not, may God put me there; and if I am, may God so keep me.'"[45] The question is a scholarly trap. Church doctrine held that no one could be certain of being in God's grace. If she had answered yes, then she would have convicted herself of heresy. If she had answered no, then she would have confessed her own guilt. Notary Boisguillaume later testified that at the moment the court heard this reply, "Those who were interrogating her were stupefied."
    i guess part of it rests on the nature of the voices, which we probably shall never really know...

  8. #88
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    was she, though? the book i remember reading as a child about her portrayed her as very concerned about right and wrong, from the very beginning. the testimonies given after her death talked about what a pious and dutiful child she was in the village she grew up in, and how she masterfully completed her household tasks. she was working in her family's garden when the voice first came to her. after the first voice, she swore two things - to stay a virgin and to be obedient to the voices, who she believed linked her to god. this all seems heavily moral, and lacking 6 doubt and questioning. her first promise after hearing a voice in her head was to not question. she argued with them, but i do not remember much discussion of her questioning their nature. she also did not really care about country or the king because of anything besides her loyalty to her voices. i have generally seen the dauphin pictured as a bit of a prick, and joan needing to give him a little ass-kick to get him to actually be productive.

    i could be wrong - like i said, that's just from what i have seen and viewed. certainly not professional research nor exhaustive sources.



    or because she was NFP with well-attuned Ne and Fi. to some extent almost any NFP can point out an oddball in a crowd. i wouldn't be surprised if all NFs have a certain degree of skill at this. we work in energy fields... intuitive people-oriented "atmosphere" reading.



    but that leads you more to 6 than 1? if the church is defining "good" in joan's life, and she is a 1, it is no surprise she would follow them to a T.

    i see what you mean that she could be a 6 but the portrayals of her i have read and viewed frame her as most deeply motivated by the moral cause. one would think a 6 would be more inclined to fight for the sake of protecting the people, but i'm not convinced she really cared about the specific people much, it sounds like she cared most about doing what was right by her god.
    thankyou for properly iterating what I was trying to say
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  9. #89
    Whisky Old & Women Young Speed Gavroche's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylights View Post
    was she, though? the book i remember reading as a child about her portrayed her as very concerned about right and wrong, from the very beginning. the testimonies given after her death talked about what a pious and dutiful child she was in the village she grew up in, and how she masterfully completed her household tasks. she was working in her family's garden when the voice first came to her. after the first voice, she swore two things - to stay a virgin and to be obedient to the voices, who she believed linked her to god. this all seems heavily moral, and lacking 6 doubt and questioning. her first promise after hearing a voice in her head was to not question. she argued with them, but i do not remember much discussion of her questioning their nature. she also did not really care about country or the king because of anything besides her loyalty to her voices. i have generally seen the dauphin pictured as a bit of a prick, and joan needing to give him a little ass-kick to get him to actually be productive.
    Sha was faithful and dutiful, bu not perfectionistic. And did'nt have problem with an internal anger to deny, like 1s do. When she was angered, she showed it, as a counterphobic, or followed rules and was simply not angry, as a phobic 6. And she questioned the nature of her voices.

    i could be wrong - like i said, that's just from what i have seen and viewed. certainly not professional research nor exhaustive sources.
    Professional research by Enneagram pratician show her as a 6.



    or because she was NFP with well-attuned Ne and Fi. to some extent almost any NFP can point out an oddball in a crowd. i wouldn't be surprised if all NFs have a certain degree of skill at this. we work in energy fields... intuitive people-oriented "atmosphere" reading.
    The Joan's particularity is to develop her antennas in an intituitive and spiritual way, elsewhere, NFPs tend to be intuitive and spiritual, but not to develop theses antenna, which are related with the enneatype. A type 9 NFP, for example, would'nt do, because he trust people, a type 2 NFP would'nt because he's focused on the need of others and how he can "give to get", a type 3 NFP would'nt, because 3s, as opposed to 6 have a hard time to remember image and true self are different thing, etc.



    but that leads you more to 6 than 1? if the church is defining "good" in joan's life, and she is a 1, it is no surprise she would follow them to a T.
    Both 6 and 1 tend to be dutiful, but 6 are dutiful to feel secure and safe, and reassure themselves, while 1 are dutiful to repress their anger and seek perfection to escape a powerful inner critic.

    i see what you mean that she could be a 6 but the portrayals of her i have read and viewed frame her as most deeply motivated by the moral cause. one would think a 6 would be more inclined to fight for the sake of protecting the people, but i'm not convinced she really cared about the specific people or country much, it sounds like she cared most about doing what was right by her god.
    Joan wanted to chase the english from France, her visions are essentially due to to the 6s leanings to seek force in their imagination. She thought she was moral, but she was not a rigid perfectionist like 1s are. She was reckless and was bored by precedures. She igored the french strategy. That show her ultimate will is to be safe, at first, she followed rules to be safe, then she ignored it to be safe again, so, her strongest will was not to follow rules with perfection like it is the case for 1s.
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    "Stereotypes about personality and gender turn out to be fairly accurate: ... On the binary Myers-Briggs measure, the thinking-feeling breakdown is about 30/70 for women versus 60/40 for men." ~ Bryan Caplan

  10. #90
    Certified Sausage Smoker Elfboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Speed Gavroche View Post
    Sha was faithful and dutiful, bu not perfectionistic. And did'nt have problem with an internal anger to deny, like 1s do. When she was angered, she showed it, as a counterphobic, or followed rules and was simply not angry, as a phobic 6. And she questioned the nature of her voices.



    Professional research by Enneagram pratician show her as a 6.





    The Joan's particularity is to develop her antennas in an intituitive and spiritual way, elsewhere, NFPs tend to be intuitive and spiritual, but not to develop theses antenna, which are related with the enneatype. A type 9 NFP, for example, would'nt do, because he trust people, a type 2 NFP would'nt because he's focused on the need of others and how he can "give to get", a type 3 NFP would'nt, because 3s, as opposed to 6 have a hard time to remember image and true self are different thing, etc.





    Both 6 and 1 tend to be dutiful, but 6 are dutiful to feel secure and safe, and reassure themselves, while 1 are dutiful to repress their anger and seek perfection to escape a powerful inner critic.



    Joan wanted to chase the english from France, her visions are essentially due to to the 6s leanings to seek force in their imagination. She thought she was moral, but she was not a rigid perfectionist like 1s are. She was reckless and was bored by precedures. She igored the french strategy. That show her ultimate will is to be safe, at first, she followed rules to be safe, then she ignored it to be safe again, so, her strongest will was not to follow rules with perfection like it is the case for 1s.
    I will admit that 6 is a possibility (I'm still leaning 1) but there is no way in hell she's ESFJ. she spoke with the elegance of a professional poet without any schooling or cultured background. if she isn't INFP, she's INTJ (come to think of it, being a 17 year old girl who becomes a military commander and doesn't loose a single battle sounds much more INTJ than INFP. I'm fairly certain she's one of the 2, but still leaning INFP),
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