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Clockwork Orange

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
What happens if type is only four preferences? There are only four functions, to separate them by how they are preferred to be employed is to cross pollinate two facets which would erroneously leave you with eight elements.

As for some types being diplomatic and other's not being diplomatic... I think you're either too strict in your definitions or missing something my friend. ENFJ's can be diplomatic and are MUCH better reads on the state of people than INTJs can be. An INTJ friend of mine upset an ENFJ friend and when the latter pretty much snapped at him and stomped out of the room the INTJs response was "Was he upset?.... At me????". Ok so my response as an INTP to laugh and roll around on the floor wasn't diplomatic in the usual sense but it got them talking to each other as they discussed which should kick me first :D
 

wildcat

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What happens if type is only four preferences? There are only four functions, to separate them by how they are preferred to be employed is to cross pollinate two facets which would erroneously leave you with eight elements.

As for some types being diplomatic and other's not being diplomatic... I think you're either too strict in your definitions or missing something my friend. ENFJ's can be diplomatic and are MUCH better reads on the state of people than INTJs can be. An INTJ friend of mine upset an ENFJ friend and when the latter pretty much snapped at him and stomped out of the room the INTJs response was "Was he upset?.... At me????". Ok so my response as an INTP to laugh and roll around on the floor wasn't diplomatic in the usual sense but it got them talking to each other as they discussed which should kick me first :D

Hulloa Xander. Good to see you. :)
I do not know anything about diplomacy. Regret.

As for the other question.
Let us have a four-set.

4 = 3 + 1
12/4 = 9/3
124 - 93 = 31
as said 12/4 = 9/3
3 + 1 = 4
12 X 3 = 4 X 9

How many directions?
One. :)
 

wildcat

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It is good to have so many devoted friends, Xander. :)

Apropos what happens if type is only four preferences?
It is what happens if the day is only the clockface.

The day is twelve hours, Xander?
It is four and twenty hours.

An illustration.

24 h divided.

4 X 9 = 36

4 X 36 = 24 X 6 = 144

X 10

1440/2
= 720 minutes in the clockface.

1440/1 minutes in a day.

Secondwise

720 + 144 = 864

X 100

3 + 6 = 9
3 X 9 = 27
(T)27 = 2 X 36

check

36 - 9 = 27

Half and half, Xander.

36 X 24 = 24 X 36

36/2 = 18
36/4 = 9
3 X 4 = 6 X 2 = 24/2

Does the roundturn turn in the turnround?
It is already turned. :)

The number does not sign the number.
It numbers the sign.

The sign does not number the sign.
It signs the number.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
Apr 24, 2007
Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
It's not about another side of the clock face however, it is more akin to if it's in the first half of an hour or the last half. It is still part of the same hour, there is merely a divide within it.

A better example would be an apple sat upon the floor. One side is still clean and wonderful, the other is dirty from the floor and bruised from it's drop. Yes the two halves do look different and yes they would taste different and have different appeal but they are still part of the same apple.

It doesn't matter if you prefer to apply T to the external world or prefer to apply it to the internal wonderland, it's still T.

Ergo your calculations would be in error or you'd need to move to a three dimensional grid. Perhaps 4x4x2? Not sure where that shifts your loci too though.

As for friends, everyone is a friend until they do something which deserves a different kind of treatment. Or they're boring... Boring people are associates. You're in no risk there though :)
 

wildcat

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It's not about another side of the clock face however, it is more akin to if it's in the first half of an hour or the last half. It is still part of the same hour, there is merely a divide within it.

A better example would be an apple sat upon the floor. One side is still clean and wonderful, the other is dirty from the floor and bruised from it's drop. Yes the two halves do look different and yes they would taste different and have different appeal but they are still part of the same apple.

It doesn't matter if you prefer to apply T to the external world or prefer to apply it to the internal wonderland, it's still T.

Ergo your calculations would be in error or you'd need to move to a three dimensional grid. Perhaps 4x4x2? Not sure where that shifts your loci too though.

As for friends, everyone is a friend until they do something which deserves a different kind of treatment. Or they're boring... Boring people are associates. You're in no risk there though :)

Thank you, Xander. :)

Why T?

2 - 8 = 0 - 6

8 - 2 = 6 - 0

2 + 6 = 8 + 0

68 - 62 = 6 = 46 - 40

62 - 8 = 80 - 26 = (T)45 = 60 - 6

check

144 X 60 = 8640

441 X 6 = 2646

Half in half, Xander.

Dimensionwise. :)
 

wildcat

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E = 9
The clockface = 12

9 = 12 - 3
12 X 3 = 4 X 9 = 36
720 = (T)2 X 36
72 = 6 X 12 = 3 X 24
36 - 9 = (T)72
as 4 - 1 = 3

(T)72/3 = 9

Say the clock is one. The nine set is one.
E = 1

Four hours late the clock is five.
5 - 4 = 1
The nine set is four. E = 4.

E = 1 at 1
at 5 E = 4

Clockface = 12
Enneagram = 9

12 - 9 = 3
3 X 4 = 12
3/3 = 1

32 is not divisible in the order. Regret. :)

Our clock strikes 9:
nine set = 7
E = 7. No wings.
We move four hours ahead.

We had

Clock 01: Nine set 01
Clock 05: Nine set 04
Clock 09: Nine set 07
Clock 13: Nine set (T)1

(T)1 - 1 = 9
12/3 = 4 :)
 

Xander

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Messages
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Pessimist ;)
Why not? :D
62 - 8 = 80 - 26 = (T)45 = 60 - 6
T = 1.2????
144 X 60 = 8640

441 X 6 = 2646

Half in half, Xander.

Dimensionwise. :)
The point is if you're using numerical replacement to see the pattern then using 8x8 will show you an overly complicated result. 4x4 gives you your sixteen types without recourse to over analysing. In fact if you use a straight analysis of the functions and their order you get 4x2x2. 4 functions, 2 for extrovert and introvert and 2 for judging or perceiving.

Oh and I was reading some publication from the Oxford Psychology Press, it made definitive reference to four preferences for each type not eight. Now that would inevitably lead back to the whole idea that the other four are non preferred and therefore it leads to eight total but I still maintain that such polarised views of people are incorrect at a fundamental level and should not be supported.

That reminds me, a question for you...
If you think of the functions (including their attitudes if you must) then should each function be a distinct scale within a person or are they mixed?
So
F - T say Fe - Ti
or
T - T say Te - Ti
?

Personally I think the former and would go further to state that it supports my thinking on how many functions constitute a persons preferences but I'd appreciate your insight.
 

wildcat

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Pessimist ;)
Why not? :D

T = 1.2????

The point is if you're using numerical replacement to see the pattern then using 8x8 will show you an overly complicated result. 4x4 gives you your sixteen types without recourse to over analysing. In fact if you use a straight analysis of the functions and their order you get 4x2x2. 4 functions, 2 for extrovert and introvert and 2 for judging or perceiving.

Oh and I was reading some publication from the Oxford Psychology Press, it made definitive reference to four preferences for each type not eight. Now that would inevitably lead back to the whole idea that the other four are non preferred and therefore it leads to eight total but I still maintain that such polarised views of people are incorrect at a fundamental level and should not be supported.

That reminds me, a question for you...
If you think of the functions (including their attitudes if you must) then should each function be a distinct scale within a person or are they mixed?
So
F - T say Fe - Ti
or
T - T say Te - Ti
?

Personally I think the former and would go further to state that it supports my thinking on how many functions constitute a persons preferences but I'd appreciate your insight.

Yes, Xander. I know.
A direct analysis of the functions and their order will get 4 X 2 X 2. Granted.
You pointed it out. Thank you.

I did not understand how people can be so blind.
So stupid of me.
John and Linda. I did not get it.

The math may look perfect.
It is does not make it right right when the premise is wrong.

A good question.
It is not one or the other.
A vertical dichotomy parallels a horizontal dichotomy.
Simultaneously.

Is the object turned by the subject?
The subject turns itself.
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
Joined
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Messages
4,463
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
9w8
Yes, Xander. I know.
A direct analysis of the functions and their order will get 4 X 2 X 2. Granted.
You pointed it out. Thank you.

I did not understand how people can be so blind.
So stupid of me.
John and Linda. I did not get it.

The math may look perfect.
It is does not make it right right when the premise is wrong.

A good question.
It is not one or the other.
A vertical dichotomy parallels a horizontal dichotomy.
Simultaneously.

Is the object turned by the subject?
The subject turns itself.
The object would be interpreted by the subject but unless interaction happens to the object to change it then the object is the same no matter which subject is put in front of it.
 

wildcat

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The object is the same. :)

You have two hands.
Ten fingers.
Why the Sumerians used the 6, Xander?
That is why.
And it has nothing to do with the days of the year.
 

Xander

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I'm sorry but I know nothing of Sumerians... I'm younger than you ;) (couldn't resist :devil: )

Anyway, using 8 you're saying the object changes, otherwise you'd use four. If you did 4x4x2... isn't the 2 unnecessary? Wouldn't the 2 merely be the two sides of exactly the same thing? Do we need to figure for how the coin lands or merely the presence of the coin?
 

Xander

Lex Parsimoniae
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9w8
I'm sorry but I know nothing of Sumerians... I'm younger than you ;) (couldn't resist :devil: )

Anyway, using 8 you're saying the object changes, otherwise you'd use four. If you did 4x4x2... isn't the 2 unnecessary? Wouldn't the 2 merely be the two sides of exactly the same thing? Do we need to figure for how the coin lands or merely the presence of the coin?
 

wildcat

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Do not worry. It is human not to resist. :)

We do not see how the coin lands unless we have the 2.
Repetitive.
I know.
Not redundant. :)

Analogy.

(T)1 = 10
A twohand.

90 - 09 = 90 - 09

91 - 19 = 80 - 08

92 - 29 = (T)36 = 70 - 7 etc

-
-
-
-
-
-

99 - 99 = 0 - 0 = 0

What comes around goes around.
 

wildcat

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I see we are back in the original compound.
9 X 4

:)


4 = 2 + 2

92 - 29 = (T)36

6 - 3 = 3

92 + 3 = 95

29 + (T)3 = (T)95

95 - 59 = 36 = (T)63

check

3 = 7 - 4

(T)36 = 7 X 9

36 = 4 X 9

3 = (T)79 - (T)49

(T)3 = 79 - 49
 

wildcat

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7 + 2 = 9 X 1 = 1 X 9

72 = ((T)36 + (9 X 1 = 1 X 9)) = 91 - 19

7 - 2 = 5

91 + 5 = 96

19 + (T)5 = 69

96 - 69 = (T)72 = 27

check

72 = 8 X 9

27 = 3 X 9

5 = 8 - 3 = (T)89 - (T)39

(T)5 = 89 - 39
 

Xander

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Messages
4,463
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9w8
As always my friend, I am left thinking that my glasses are insufficient to allow me to see the patterns as readily as you. I am never certain of their validity but if I do not see them daily then who am I to quibble?
 

wildcat

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Glad to see you back, Xander! :hug:

You do see them daily. One of the early philosophers said about the nature of time: It is the inevitable outcome of distance.
Physics does not object. :)

Clock is the measure of time. Only in the loci. :smile:
 

wildcat

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0 X 9 = 9 X 0 ?
Not in the loci.

(T)1 = 10

Apropos 9

8 6 4 2 0 2 4 6 8

Apropos (T)1

0 8 14 18 20 20 18 14 8 0

check

0 X 9 = 99 - (9 X 9) - (9 + 9)

9 X 0 = 0 - (0 X 0) - (0 + 0)
 

wildcat

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Thank you, all. A good job. :)
We have found what we set out to find.

Does Enneagram fit in the overall typology?
It does.
Does it fit in the clock?
It does.
Does it fit in the MBTI?
It does.
Is Enneagram valid?
It is.

Would it be better if the nine silent numbers were included?
They are included.
 
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