4 or 7? Just go towards end of thread-

[brainheart]

A 9 who thinks she's a 4w5

I have a friend trying to convince me I'm a nine.

Problem is, I don't relate to the nine description. If there is any type in the enneagram that leaves me stumped, it's the nine. But maybe that's because I'm a nine? I've heard people say that if you read a description of a type and it makes you feel a little ill, then that's probably what you are. That's definitely how I feel when I read the nine. It seems so wimpy and complacent and bland and lifeless and blah. (No offense to those who are nines- which is, crap, probably a totally nine thing to say.)

I'm beginning to think that maybe I have this idealized vision of who I am vs the reality. In my fantasy world (9w1, anyone?), I am totally this creative, awesome, witty, emotionally vibrant, bad-ass 4w5/5w4. In my fantasy world, I am my favorite musicians, writers, directors, artists, book characters rolled into one great package. There they all are, in me, just waiting for the right moment to leap out into the world and act, really live their life.

The reality- I've never really felt like I've finished anything that matters to me- partly because what I want is always changing, partly because it feels like life gets in the way, partly because the things that matter to me seem... hard. And I like things to be easy and just happen. When things get hard it's like my body and brain just shut down and I can't do anything. I just feel tired, like chronic fatigue syndrome tired. There's this song with the line, "I fall easy when things get harder." It could pretty much be my life anthem.

I've been told that I'm hard to read, that I don't share.
I've been told that I talk too much, that I'm too expressive.
I've been told that I'm not a team player, that I'm too independent, that I just 'disappear'.
I had a therapist ask me why I lose myself. I don't know how to answer that question- what does that question mean?
I've been told I'm a total 4. I've been told that there is no way I'm a 4.
I've been told that I'm calm, unemotional. Conversely, melodramatic, mean.
A shapeshifter, a robot.
Virginal, the opposite.
?

 

[KDude]

If you still think you might be a 4, have you thought that maybe it's the 4 SO/SX? That's where I think I fall/seem to get test results often. If not that, I guess I could be 9 as well. I just have the same reservations about it.


Social/Sexual

This is overall the "lightest" type Four when it comes to social interaction. They are likely to utilize charm and humor. This type is more scattered and can be down right disorganized. They can drift through life always feeling like an outsider, yet they usually have friends. They can alternate from being the life of the party to withdrawing. Intimates will know of their insecurities and dark moody side while acquaintances will see a softer, friendlier side. This subtype’s energy is geared towards people, but they never feel as though they really fit in. They are often quite creative, talented people who have many interests, but they frequently lack the energy to actually accomplish what they would like. They can drift and withdraw very easily. When healthy and with the right support from friends (and perhaps a little push) they tap into their instinctual energy. When they do this, they begin to see how much they can accomplish. A positive connection to others helps them stay focused.

 

[brainheart]

Just took this test. These are pretty typical results for me:


Type 1 Perfectionism |||||||||| 35%
Type 2 Helpfulness |||||||||||||| 51%
Type 3 Image Focus |||||||||| 35%
Type 4 Hypersensitivity |||||||||||||||||| 72%
Type 5 Detachment |||||||||||||||||| 80%
Type 6 Anxiety |||||||||||||||| 62%
Type 7 Adventurousness |||||||||| 38%
Type 8 Aggressiveness |||||||||| 31%
Type 9 Calmness |||||||||||||||| 70%

type score type behavior motivation
5 56 I must be knowledgable and independent to be happy.
4 51 I must be true to my emotions to be happy.
9 49 I must maintian a peaceful and easygoing environment to be happy.
6 44 I must be secure and safe to be happy.
2 36 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.
7 27 I must be high and entertained to be happy.
1 25 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
3 25 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.
8 22 I must be strong and in control to be happy.

Your main type is Type 5
Your variant is sp/so/sx

 

[KDude]

What do you think about the 5 SP/SO description? For some reason, I can see myself in some of it now.. But that's beside the point. Heh. Actually, that's partly why I don't pay attention to the Enneagram much. There's a lot of overlap with various types, I think. And then explanations for that are convoluted. Instinctuals, wings, tritypes, god knows what else.. It's clear that you're an introverted type though. =)

Self-pres/Social

In the average health range, this instinctual stacking is warm, friendly, and loyal. They need their down time and have no problem spending time alone. They actually value it very much. They feel an energy drain from people’s demands on them. This instinctual stacking is what is described in most Enneagram books. The most notable and potentially frustrating thing about people of this type is the difficulty involved in getting really close to them. While they can usually handle themselves socially, they always hold back when it comes to intensity or intimacy in a relationship which can frustrate a sexual variant type. Others are aware that there is more going on beneath the surface, but it can’t really be accessed. These Fives are masters at minimizing their needs. Even though they shy away from intense personal relationships they often have a lot of intuition about others. Their detached level of personal involvement somehow brings objectivity to their insights. They can be the most practical of the instinctual stackings.

Their issues usually revolve around demands made on their time. This can become problematic in personal relationships. This subtype has an ideal vision of what a close or romantic relationship should be, but given their concerns for protecting their space and time and lacking the instinctual drive of a strong sexual instinct, energy just doesn’t flow in that direction. Because this subtype is good at minimizing their needs they can get along fine with few relationships or without a romantic partner. With the social instinct second in the stacking, they generally do find friends or colleagues and they may even be married, but the need to maintain their own time to pursue their interests is always a point of contention.

 

[Totenkindly]

I have a friend trying to convince me I'm a nine. Problem is, I don't relate to the nine description. If there is any type in the enneagram that leaves me stumped, it's the nine. But maybe that's because I'm a nine? I've heard people say that if you read a description of a type and it makes you feel a little ill, then that's probably what you are.

That's not a great way to determine one's type.

(I mean, the description of Three, Six, and Eight can leave me ill too at times, and I'm none of those... and especially not all three at once.)

That's definitely how I feel when I read the nine. It seems so wimpy and complacent and bland and lifeless and blah. (No offense to those who are nines- which is, crap, probably a totally nine thing to say.)

You can be conciliatory/fair without being a Nine.

I'm beginning to think that maybe I have this idealized vision of who I am vs the reality. In my fantasy world (9w1, anyone?), I am totally this creative, awesome, witty, emotionally vibrant, bad-ass 4w5/5w4. In my fantasy world, I am my favorite musicians, writers, directors, artists, book characters rolled into one great package. There they all are, in me, just waiting for the right moment to leap out into the world and act, really live their life.

The reality- I've never really felt like I've finished anything that matters to me- partly because what I want is always changing, partly because it feels like life gets in the way, partly because the things that matter to me seem... hard. And I like things to be easy and just happen. When things get hard it's like my body and brain just shut down and I can't do anything. I just feel tired, like chronic fatigue syndrome tired. There's this song with the line, "I fall easy when things get harder." It could pretty much be my life anthem.

I've been told that I'm hard to read, that I don't share.
I've been told that I talk too much, that I'm too expressive.
I've been told that I'm not a team player, that I'm too independent, that I just 'disappear'.
I had a therapist ask me why I lose myself. I don't know how to answer that question- what does that question mean?
I've been told I'm a total 4. I've been told that there is no way I'm a 4.
I've been told that I'm calm, unemotional. Conversely, melodramatic, mean.
A shapeshifter, a robot.
Virginal, the opposite.

actually, I can identify a lot with a chunk of this.

Since I've been doing Enneagram type, starting 10+ years ago, I have always tested with three high scores, always in this order: Five, Four (within 2-3 points of the five), and then Nine (7-8 points below)... and then a huge gap before the rest start appearing.

The 5w4 description always fit me very well... and at that time in my life, I was also very independent, isolated, driven, trying to complete projects, make something of my talents, create new things. The one things that is different with me is that, although withdrawing was my first strategy to deal with anxiety for much of my life, I eventually became far more of an engager and trying to work through things. I also have always been very diplomatic, and strongly *dislike* conflict.

I am guess that typical 5w4 doesn't have as much motivation to fix conflict; it usually focuses on its own pursuits, then fades away when conflict occurs? But I really don't like conflict, I like balance, I want things stable and peaceful and people to still remain in connection with each other.

it's really difficult, I think, to discern "natural type" in people who grow and stretch over the years. I stopped focusing on my artistic/intellectual pursuits so much because after years of that, I was unhappy and lonely. The art grew hollow, everything had been done before, and I felt like the relational side of my life was immensely lacking. While I like my space, I felt adrift from human community, and I wanted to have some secure relationships where I had access and could talk to people, and I wanted to be known. But once I started engaging, that is where the Nine tendencies gained much more power. The 5w4 avoidance pattern is not much good for relationships; the 9 diplomat/accommodation pattern is. I find that in relationships I'm secure in, I can handle more disagreement (although I still would rather feel closeness and 'being in sync' more often, I'm not one of those who constantly likes to debate things with an SO); in relationships and situations where things are more unstable or could become disruptive to my life, I prefer to figure out a way to broker peace / find some satisfactory arrangement for everyone.

I hate constant friction... but then again, I grew up in a home life where, when people disagree with each other, they got really mad and often would not talk for long periods of time, cutting each other out of their lives. Conflict = "relational death." My dad stopped talking to his brothers for years on end (and I'm talking 5-10 years) over stupid matters.... and he hasn't even talked to me for two years because he's upset with me over something, despite my efforts to keep the door open. So non-peace was always a big deal, and I desired stability.

Anyway, after seeing all of that in my life, I realize it's hard to tell what "core" is, or how much people with multiple strengths can slide between then, or how stable one particular type is throughout a lifetime, or whether the theory itself is flawed.

I'm telling you more this, not to solve your problem (because I don't know enough to give you better advice), but just to give you some options for how to frame it... and it's okay to possess strong traits from multiple archetypes. The 4/5/9 lead triad is not uncommon, actually, because some traits are shared among them. INTP typically will test as 5, 5w4, 5w6 (those with a more Te perspective), and 9.

 

[brainheart]

In contrast, Jennifer, I got married young, had kids young. Having a stable, pleasant, romantic relationship/ happy family is very much a priority for me.

Things went fine, zero to few arguments until I 'lost my shit' and blamed my husband for all the ills in my life. I went after another man (ex hs boyfriend) who I over-idealized to the extreme, that fell through, felt like I was going to die after all that abandonment, worked things out with my husband, our relationship is good/ happy. But I still have the issue with doing anything 'real' for me. I worked on a novel for years then stopped when I realized I hated it. Was I just writing because everyone told me I was a good writer? (I still don't know.) Now I waste my time on the internet/ reading books about the enneagram. I've started going back to school to get a masters in art therapy, but I'm not really sure I even really want to do it. Ideally, if I could pick whatever I want to do in life, I would be a set designer/building sets/puppeteer in stop motion animation or be working with rehabilitating wildlife/converting developed areas back into wilderness.

I am the youngest of six kids. Everyone in my family had far more assertive personalities than me. I didn't want to add to the mix. I could never understand how freaked out everyone got. I was NOT picky. Loved all food. Happily entertained myself. Loved being alone. My mom has always talked about how easy I was. The most low-maintenance child ever. I'd fall asleep with a light shining directly in my face. Everyone could be screaming and I'd just be on the couch reading a book. I am profoundly good at tuning people out.

But I had a hard time making friends, maintaining friends. I was very much a loner. Other kids didn't like me so much. I was too smart and completely disinterested in 'cool' stuff. I had my own tastes, interests. Very much lived in my books, have always loved animals, being in nature. I feel safe by myself in the woods. At peace. In nature I feel like 'me'. Around people I feel alone. Another song lyric I really relate to- "And I miss you when you're around. I'm never lonesome when I'm by myself."

 

[brainheart]

What do you think about the 5 SP/SO description? For some reason, I can see myself in some of it now.. But that's beside the point. Heh. Actually, that's partly why I don't pay attention to the Enneagram much. There's a lot of overlap with various types, I think. And then explanations for that are convoluted. Instinctuals, wings, tritypes, god knows what else.. It's clear that you're an introverted type though. =)

I've thought of myself both as a 4w5 so/sx and the 5w4 sp/so makes sense, too. Yes, it's confusing, but I'm looking for the self-improvement here. I want to grow, heal myself, dammit.

 

[KDude]

Does this friend of yours know as much about the Enneagram as you? Why did they say 9?

I'll only mention one other 4 description. SP/SX (Just food for thought)

Self/Sexual

This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.

 

[brainheart]

yes, she knows plenty about the enneagram. (And she knows me in real life!) I've considered sp/sx, too. I see myself in all of 'em, believe you me.

I def have the 549 thing going on. But which is dominant? Ah, there's the question!


5s oftentimes seem too jerky to me.
4s oft seem too dramatic and melancholic.
9s too indecisive and placid.

What do I strike people as? Hmmm.

 

[KDude]

5s oftentimes seem too jerky to me.
4s oft seem too dramatic and melancholic.
9s too indecisive and placid..

Hah.. when you put it that way, they're all kind of distasteful, aren't they? I don't know what it adds up to. From what I can tell, you seem more 5 or 4. I don't think 9's are wimpy, but kind of play down and simplify issues. More optimistic like 7s. We can all have this compulsion, but is it the dominant pattern? Since we're talking about growing and getting healthier, it doesn't sound like something you need to work on at least.

 

[Totenkindly]

5s oftentimes seem too jerky to me.
4s oft seem too dramatic and melancholic.
9s too indecisive and placid.

What do I strike people as? Hmmm.

The tone of your response to me doesn't seem very 9 (undiplomatic) but your childhood behavior was "go with the flow" (more 9).
It's more independent (which is 5) but not detached like 5.
And passionate in its intensity (which is 4) but doesn't seem melancholic/weak like 4 can be. Sharp instinctive unapologetic edge.

All of which means I still can't tell what it is.
I wonder what 9w8 looks like.

I don't think 9's are wimpy, but kind of play down and simplify issues. More optimistic like 7s.

I agree with that.

 

[KDude]

Melancholy.. yes.. but I didn't know 4's were weak. I don't want to be one now. X)

Honestly, I am in some ways (weak). Aren't we all? There's a disconnect and sensitivity (and some lack of productivity) associated with 4, and it could be weak for dwelling on the negative and not fixing it, I guess. I don't think they lose an unapologetic edge though. That's kind of the problem actually. I think the "individualist" label probably sums it better than "romantic" or "artist".

I think the two sx 4's, the most typical ones apparently, sound kind of "in your face" (although I doubt brainheart is one.. just saying).

Sexual/Self-pres

This is a very volatile type. They are driven to form connections but have very high demands of their partners. When their powerful fantasies don’t match reality, they become very restless. They take the fire and passion of the sexual instinct and turn it inward. This can cause both brooding and fiery outbursts. Dramatic mood swings are very likely with this type. This subtype of Four could be considered the most classic Four, because of the way they seem to embody the archetype of the tortured artist, although not all Fours of this subtype are artists. Stereotype aside, this subtype does tend to bring their emotions into focus more readily then the other subtypes of Four. What is under the surface with the self-pres/sexual is now bubbling to the surface. This subtype can resemble type Seven because of their drama, passion for experience and tendency to suffer from frustration when life seems dull. Like type Seven, they can seem to throw themselves into experience.

When healthy, this subtype learns to balance the need for passion with the less obvious need for groundedness which can come from solid and focused relationships with others and with their creative outlets.



Sexual/Social

This subtype is able to connect with others and with life itself, but always with an undertone of volatility and a tendency to dramatize. They are the most involved and connected of the subtypes of Four. They can go from relationship to relationship, seemingly tortured by each one. They are the most driven of the subtypes of Four to express themselves publicly and type Four celebrities are commonly found with this stacking. This subtype has a real difficulty remaining grounded, partly due to the undeveloped self-pres instinct. Although they can appear almost Eight-like at times with their lust for life and desire for passionate experience, they lack the focus of the Eight and the instinctual energy that would keep them grounded. Sometimes alcohol or substance abuse can be a problem. These Fours become more healthy when they learn to control their impulsivenss and focus their energies.

 

[brainheart]

Sharp instinctive unapologetic edge.

ooh, I like...

In bold is what I particularly relate to (some of it unfortunately):

9w8

Awakened Nines with an 8 wing have a modest, steady, receptive core. They are charged by the dynamism of 8 - when focused on goals they often have great force of will. Get things done, make good leaders. May have an animal magnetism of which they are only partly aware. Can seem highly centered, take what they do seriously but remain unimpressed with themselves. 8 wing can bring a strong internal sense of direction. Relatively fearless and highly intuitive. Generally not intellectual unless they have it in their background. When more entranced, they manifest the contradictions of the two styles expressing them in sequence. Could be passively amiable like a Nine and then turn horribly blunt like an 8. One moment they are opinionated or nasty, next moment kindly and supportive. Often don't hear their voices when angry. Can have a sharp, grating edge. May be slow to anger and then explode. Or angry but don't know it; may confuse being assertive with being rude. Placidly callous - both styles support numbness. Tactless and indiscriminate and indiscreet. May be unwittingly disloyal, spilling everyone's secrets. Sexual confusion, sometimes they are driven by lust.

 

[brainheart]

This test https://wmsas.qualtrics.com/SE/?SID=SV_doPACqR3Nr4lmuM gave me this:



Type Four= 67
Type Nine= 66
Type Five= 61
Type Seven= 56
Type Two= 52
Type Six= 50
Type Eight= 45
Type One= 38
Type Three= 35

It seemed like one of the better tests I've taken- good questions. But it doesn't clear things up all that well. Although I'd say chances are between 4w5 and 9w8. I feel like I know so little about 9w8...

 

[Rail Tracer]

I have a friend trying to convince me I'm a nine.

Problem is, I don't relate to the nine description. If there is any type in the enneagram that leaves me stumped, it's the nine. But maybe that's because I'm a nine? I've heard people say that if you read a description of a type and it makes you feel a little ill, then that's probably what you are. That's definitely how I feel when I read the nine. It seems so wimpy and complacent and bland and lifeless and blah. (No offense to those who are nines- which is, crap, probably a totally nine thing to say.)

Was I just called wimpy? -.- I'll bite your tongue when I feel like it and I'll leave you alone when I feel like it

If what makes me ill is actually my type, than both 4w5 and 5w4 would be valid choices.

The way I see it, I consider 4 and 5 to be extremities to the way I act. I can be dramatic at times, and apathetic at other times. However, it might have to deal more with my instinctual stacking (SX/SO) that makes me seem so strange. If you place 4w5 with SX/SO... you get a very dramatic 4... if you pair SX/SO with a 5, you get a very 4-like 5. if you place SX/SO with 9, you get either an 8-like 9 or a 1-like 9

I'm beginning to think that maybe I have this idealized vision of who I am vs the reality. In my fantasy world (9w1, anyone?), I am totally this creative, awesome, witty, emotionally vibrant, bad-ass 4w5/5w4. In my fantasy world, I am my favorite musicians, writers, directors, artists, book characters rolled into one great package. There they all are, in me, just waiting for the right moment to leap out into the world and act, really live their life.

Ironically, for a type so oriented to the spiritual world, Nine is the center of the Instinctive Center, and is the type that is potentially most grounded in the physical world and in their own bodies.

I'll let you interpret that yourself.

 

[brainheart]

Was I just called wimpy? -.- I'll bite your tongue when I feel like it and I'll leave you alone when I feel like it

Didn't mean to diss on any of the types, truly. I was poking fun at myself more than anything, my perceptions of things, my fault-finding. Also just pointing out how they don't mesh quite right with my personality.

So I had a revelation/epiphany yesterday. Came about when I was talking to a friend. This particular friend made a comment the other day that, to talk enneagram, made me sound one-ish. It took me by surprise because I don't consider myself to be like that at all- I am completely undisciplined, spontaneous, a total flake. The other thing he said was that I seem to be conserving my energy, holding it in. What are you conserving it for he wanted to know. Well, yesterday, I had to admit to him that I am afraid of myself. I've done some really stupid, impulsive stuff in the past that has hurt myself and others. I don't want it to happen again so I've been hiding out, scared to interact with others, try new things, be me. Because 'me' screws things up. And I don't want to mess up my relationship with my husband, etc. And I don't want to hurt again.

So I hide out in my house and live in my head. This isn't 'me', this tired, reserved person people see these days. I used to be totally fun and crazy and energetic.

Mulling all of this stuff over, I decided to take a look at type 7. Wow, does it hit home. I live for mental stimulation, the new. I am a generalist to the extreme. As my husband says, 'You're problem is you're good at everything. You could do anything. So you do nothing.' It's true, to an extent. More like, I have a mediocre aptitude at everything, but I'm not exemplary at anything. I haven't found the right thing. Once I find the right thing, everything will fall into place. Once I find something that doesn't get old, something that sustains my interest...

I can't tell you how many times people have said to me just pick one thing. Just pick one thing and stick to it. But how on earth do you do that when there are so many interesting, wonderful things?

What's kept me away from seven, from even considering it is that I don't perceive myself as an extrovert. I don't feel the need to be around people so much. But I do love new ideas, new experiences. They definitely give me energy. Sometimes I like being social, sometimes I like being by myself. I just want to be in the thick of whatever I'm passionate about at the moment.

 

[brainheart]

I
I'm beginning to think that maybe I have this idealized vision of who I am vs the reality. In my fantasy world (9w1, anyone?), I am totally this creative, awesome, witty, emotionally vibrant, bad-ass 4w5/5w4. In my fantasy world, I am my favorite musicians, writers, directors, artists, book characters rolled into one great package. There they all are, in me, just waiting for the right moment to leap out into the world and act, really live their life.

Just realized this is about the most four thing anyone could ever say. Ugh, I am so embarrassing...

What 4 variant is considered the most seven like? Because I am very seven-ish, no doubt about that-

 

[brainheart]

I'll let you interpret that yourself.

Your quote continues...

The contradiction is resolved when we realize that Nines are either in touch with their instinctive qualities and have tremendous elemental power and personal magnetism, or they are cut off from their instinctual strengths and can be disengaged and remote, even lightweight.

To compensate for being out of touch with their instinctual energies, Nines also retreat into their minds and their emotional fantasies. (This is why Nines can sometimes misidentify themselves as Fives and Sevens, "head types" or as Twos and Fours, "feeling types.")