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Enneagram questions

B

brainheart

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Interesting... I suppose there are multiple routes to an outcome.

I wonder how they came about this information...

Yeah, me too. I don't know. It makes my head spin. There's a lot in the 3/5 that I relate to, too. I'm finding this more confusing than helpful.

It's not like anyone's parenting styles are static. I definitely run the full gamut. I try to be primarily responsive, but sometimes I'm definitely neutral, while sometimes I overreact in an active sort of way. Same goes for my kids. I'd say my daughter is a toss-up between active and responsive, while my son is neutral-responsive.
 

Sunshine

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I just re-read the active child and neutral parent thing....yep that's pretty much how it went for me growing up.
 

Sunshine

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Yeah, me too. I don't know. It makes my head spin. There's a lot in the 3/5 that I relate to, too. I'm finding this more confusing than helpful.

It's not like anyone's parenting styles are static. I definitely run the full gamut. I try to be primarily responsive, but sometimes I'm definitely neutral, while sometimes I overreact in an active sort of way. Same goes for my kids. I'd say my daughter is a toss-up between active and responsive, while my son is neutral-responsive.

Yeah I think there's more to it than what was written.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Active child vs. Neutral parent
This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 4

In this relationship, the child usually tries to grab the attention of an indifferent or absent parent, by expressing himself with increasing intensity, until a response is achieved. The Active child may act in a dramatic, exaggerated manner, attempting to get his message across to the unconcerned caretaker. The Neutral caretaker will typically ignore the child's emotional needs, making the youngster feel frustrated, misunderstood and possibly abandoned. Sometimes the child turns these negative feelings inwardly, believing that they are unlovable and not special enough to deserve attention.

This scenario teaches the Active children that they are different than other children that seem to be getting the support they lack. They want to make themselves heard so they amplify their feelings, resorting to dramatic expressions of their emotions. These children may later become overly sensitive, artistic and theatrical, but also melancholic, self-loathing and depressive.
So, Sunshine, you agree this rings a bell with you then?

Neutral child vs. Active parent
This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 9

The Neutral child is often overwhelmed and frightened by the controlling, domineering Active parent. Lacking self-assertion skills, he prefers to withdraw and stay out of the way, minimizing his own needs and avoiding the parent as much as possible. On the few occasions the child reaches out to the caretaker, he ends up feeling rejected and bullied around for no apparent reason, which causes him to withdraw again.
The loneliness, however, also feels like rejection and soon enough the youngster will be ambivalent towards both being alone and being with others.

Most of the time, a compromise will be made. This type will seek out company but will not invest themselves in it, preferring to keep in the background and go with the flow, partly removed from their actual situation. When alone, they will avoid introspection, which will bring about old feelings of depression and rejection, instead they'd rather numb themselves out with food, TV or other unimportant routines to avoid emotional pain.

Neutral child vs. Responsive parent
This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 5

In this relationship, the Responsive parent is inclined to give a lot of unrequested attention to the Neutral child, who perceives his parent's supportive and affectionate attitude as a form of smothering. The youngster will tend to withdraw from his environment, preferring solitary activities and contemplation, but as opposed to the previous scenario (of type 9), loneliness will not be accompanied by a feeling of rejection. At the contrary, being alone is a matter of choice and it gives a feeling of security and well-being, knowing that there is always someone to communicate with when they decide to seek out company.

Such children are genuine loners, who prefer and enjoy their solitude. They are introspective, insightful and love learning and discovering things on their own, usually rejecting any help or intervention from the outside. They are afraid of being intruded upon because their parents used to make a fuss over them and suffocate them with attention and demands for closeness.

Neutral child vs. Neutral parent
This scenario is thought to produce Enneagram type 3

This Neutral child's solitude is encouraged by his parent's own withdrawal and indifference, which doesn’t necessarily make the Neutral child feel openly rejected, but rather intrigues and challenges him. Serious, focused and rather unemotional, this youngster will most likely try to fulfill his occasional need for attention by impressing his parents with outstanding accomplishments and high aspirations, which make him feel worthy and valuable in their eyes.

Later in life, these children become motivated achievers who put great emphasis on results, performance, efficiency and a successful image that will make others appreciate and admire them. Deep inside they dislike being ignored because it makes them doubt their own value, therefore they tend to hide their weaknesses and flaws and project a desirable, attractive, "I-have-it-all" persona.
Maybe my parents were just bipolar, and so the combination of parental techniques led me to be who I am. Not to mention other outside influences of my peers.

I'm not a 9, 5 or a 3... I highlighted aspects that are fitting to me. I'd say for the most part, I was extremely withdrawn... and often obliviously so. I don't think this theory takes into consideration "combination" parents. By that, I mean... my dad, though a very active parent, could be responsive at times. He could be incredibly scary and then super fun. He's an incredibly moody person-an ESFP, in fact. When he was in a good mood, I loved being around him... but he was definitely not someone I wanted to piss off, which lead me to be a very good kid. Ha. He could definitely be way overreactive to silly things. My mom was somewhere between responsive and neutral... and often times, I didn't really take into consideration much about it either way. I was way too withdrawn to really notice. But she was definitely the one I went to for comfort... I never felt smothered, nor did I feel as though she was too distant.

Does anyone have any more information on the parent/child relationships dynamic for the enneagram? Good links?
 

Sunshine

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So, Sunshine, you agree this rings a bell with you then?

Yeah. I was always trying to get my parents' attention, especially my father's (his attention was often difficult to get), but they were often too busy or too distracted and my baby brother got TONS of attention. It wasn't intentional, and it wasn't like SUPER bad because it's not like I never got any attention but yeah.
 
B

brainheart

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I just re-read the active child and neutral parent thing....yep that's pretty much how it went for me growing up.

Sunshine, I wonder if your extroversion as a child and relation to the active child scenario has anything to do with being the sexual variant. I'm pretty sure I read that sexual variant types have more energy. And they're supposed to be 'more' four. So maybe that's why those of us who aren't dominant sexual variant don't relate to it quite as well. I mean, I relate to the desire for attention, but I certainly didn't do anything to attract it. If anything, I did the opposite.
 

Sunny Ghost

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^:laugh: likewise. i would do anything i could to avoid attention. i mean, sometimes i wanted attention... but that was more as i got older. and yet, i'd still often do the opposite--avoid it.

i'm a ridiculous wallflower. and even now, that i've become a bit more of a social butterfly, i yearn for my wall. i've lost my filter in social settings, and wish i could go back to being hidden even as i speak.
 

Sunshine

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Yeah but were you guys ignored? Maybe you would have wanted attention more if you never got any.
 

Sunshine

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Sunshine, I wonder if your extroversion as a child and relation to the active child scenario has anything to do with being the sexual variant.

That actually seems pretty plausible.
 

OrangeAppled

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Yeah but were you guys ignored? Maybe you would have wanted attention more if you never got any.

I was ignored by the parent who would've "caused" my 4 type (my dad left when I was 2 & I saw him infrequently on visitation), but no, I was still withdrawn & hated attention. Count me in as another 4 wallflower.....
 

Sunshine

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I was ignored by the parent who would've "caused" my 4 type (my dad left when I was 2 & I saw him infrequently on visitation), but no, I was still withdrawn & hated attention. Count me in as another 4 wallflower.....

Maybe I'm just weird. Hey how are you guys defining "attention"? Because attention from a large group of people...I dunno that I would have enjoyed that all that much.
 
B

brainheart

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Yeah but were you guys ignored? Maybe you would have wanted attention more if you never got any.

I wouldn't say necessarily that I was ignored, but probably somewhat overlooked. I was the youngest of six children. My parents were busy dealing with my older siblings' teenage drama. For the most part, though, this didn't really seem to bother me. I was always deep in my own little world, which I really seemed to love. I remember kids coming over to play and I would hide because I didn't want to have to deal with them, play the boring games they wanted to play. This is what I mean by being very five-like. However, yes, I never felt like I got much in the way of affection from my father. He was present, he cared, but he never showed or shared his love. And I'm pretty sure I would have liked a bit more of it, even though I never let on. It seemed to me that a kid shouldn't have to let on about things like that; a parent should just naturally give it.
 
B

brainheart

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Maybe I'm just weird. Hey how are you guys defining "attention"? Because attention from a large group of people...I dunno that I would have enjoyed that all that much.

A four... weird?!? ;)

Attention... I've always been really self-conscious. It makes me nervous when someone looks at me. But if no one looked at all, I think that would be worse. But I did like attention from my brothers and sisters as a kid. That's what I have a hard time with when it comes to parental involvement info. In many ways my older siblings were my surrogate parents. They seemed to matter more to me when I was really little.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Maybe I'm just weird. Hey how are you guys defining "attention"? Because attention from a large group of people...I dunno that I would have enjoyed that all that much.
Oh, gosh. Attention from a large group of people makes me faint. Even in college, having to take public speaking or any assignment that required all eyes on me gave me a panic attack. Most of my teachers, I believe, felt bad for me and I had one teacher offer an extra out of class assignment to make up for my awful presentation. :doh:
A four... weird?!? ;)

Attention... I've always been really self-conscious. It makes me nervous when someone looks at me. But if no one looked at all, I think that would be worse. But I did like attention from my brothers and sisters as a kid. That's what I have a hard time with when it comes to parental involvement info. In many ways my older siblings were my surrogate parents. They seemed to matter more to me when I was really little.
In opposition to the above that I stated, however, is (still sticking with classroom behavior), that because I am incredibly quiet and shy, it is hard to get recognition for when I do know the answer to a question being asked aloud in class and I'm afraid to speak up. I can recall one time in a class where no one knew an answer to a question that I knew. I looked all around waiting for someone to answer, and no one did. I finally braved up and raised my hand and answered the question correctly. My teacher, I could tell, was very impressed with both the fact that I knew the answer but finally raised my hand as well. I was both flattered and embarrassed at the same time. I prefer recognition a teacher provides in non-public classroom settings, though. It is strange to both want recognition and not want it at the same time.

Attention from my sibling was never something I worried about. It was just me and her, and she was always my playmate and one of my best friends growing up.

I'm definitely the same as brainheart in response to attention from my parents. I neither acknowledged it, nor cared for more or less. I was too much in my own bubble world to really realize if they noticed me or not. This is one of the reasons I can't decide if my mother was a responsive or neutral parent. Although there have definitely been times where my active parent father was quite scary to me.

Perhaps one of my problems is that I was often not very ignored by my peers... or so it felt. I often felt as though I stuck out a lot, though I desperately desired not to. Over the years, I worked very hard to blend in with the woodwork. I was always embarrassed when some little boy developed a crush on me or some other kid decided to pick on me. Any attention was turned into negative attention. And thinking on this now, I might be able to find how that fits in with how my parents were with me.... like if the only attention I noticed I was receiving was the negative attention. Though, I realize it wasn't necessarily the case, that there was indeed probably a lot of positive attention... I just interprete everything as either negative otherwise attention was just nonexistant, or rather unacknowledged by myself. I definitely relate to the five in that, I had a strong desire to learn things on my own.
 

wolfy

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What if it's good attention? Would you feel comfortable as a performer? That is how I define attention.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Good or bad, I dislike attention. Not unless I'm comfortable with and know the people who are giving me the attention.

I'm very much a one on one type of person. I can handle talking with two other people. As soon as I'm with a group of three though, it really throws me off for some reason. It suddenly feels like an audience, and I become much more quiet and prefer to not take the center of attention. Unless it's three people I know really, really, really well. In those scenarios, I can be incredibly funny and silly. Also, alcohol helps with those scenarios too. Haha.
 

wolfy

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Attention is an interesting question. If I am confident in what I am doing and the attention is positive and active then I could never get enough of it. I do tend to be more one on one. But that is more because one on one has a better dynamic. There is more feedback.
 

Sunny Ghost

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Hmm... you seem to exude much more confidence than the average ISFP. Maybe other ISFP 7's are this way, too?
 

wolfy

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I relate more to 9 or to be more precise 9w8. I sometimes test as 7 though, I don't really relate to the thinking of a 7 in the descriptions though. I don't know about confidence, I think I come across that way. There is a temperamental side that maybe doesn't show much on here. There is this word in Japanese shinkeishitsu ( translated as is it means quality of nerves) which means nervousness, (being) highly strung; sensitiveness, temperamental. Sometimes people use that about me, they are quick to follow up with "in a good way" though.
 
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