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  1. #21
    4x9 cascadeco's Avatar
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    I do not know enough about the enneagram system to know how 'arbitrary' it might really be, but in my mind any of the personality systems (including mbti) could be viewed as equally arbitrary.

    For me personally, enneagram speaks to me in many ways more than mbti does. I'm very much one to go to underlying motivations in human behavior and personality - what drives each of us to do things, and why. I also think the disintegration/integration concepts are valid, and they speak more to the reality of personality - just that we aren't in one state of emotional/mental health all of the time - we might fluctuate. Personality isn't [usually] stagnant. Mbti doesn't account for that as easily. At least on the surface. I had 'a ha' moments months back when I was reading enneagram type 4 (which is probably my best fit) - but mbti descriptions often have been sources of confusion for me, which is why for a while I was really unsure what my type actually was.

    And really..with mbti...the majority of people DON'T know the theory itself and have no idea about all of the cognitive functions, 'shadow' theory, and all of that. And....if your average person just takes the mbti test and doesn't dig very deeply, he's probably gonna be misinformed. It's only us weird ones who are really into it and are on a web forum about it! And we're definitely the minority!! So is mbti then even practical if very few people REALLY know much about it?? (and I'm not saying I know much - there are people on this site who know far more than I do about mbti!)
    "...On and on and on and on he strode, far out over the sands, singing wildly to the sea, crying to greet the advent of the life that had cried to him." - James Joyce

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  2. #22
    Lex Parsimoniae Xander's Avatar
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    The thing which I found, in relation to the whole "which system works" etc, is that no system is complete and each was designed with a different perspective, aim and final point. Like any system you need to look at why it was designed before you can properly critique it's success.

    Anyhow I've used quite a few psych tests and I think that the combined results paint quite a good picture but individually none of them nail it. I mean how many people come to question why I'm an INTP? They should see my Firo-B scores, then they'd worry. Then I could show them my father's, for an ENTJ he defeats most commonly held beliefs about them.

    No system can really fully encompass the human psyche and still be useful. Each is it's own handbook to a different facet of personality. Pick one or pick and mix, it doesn't matter as long as you realise that any system which attempts to abbreviate a persons being into something which takes less than a week to say is going to be missing out large swathes of information. Hell you can't even necessarily get all of the information you'd need for such a complete write up... well as far as I know.

    Anyhow no system has been proved as accurate to the satisfaction of the rules lawyers so why not believe in the enneagram and see if it gets you anywhere? If it doesn't then discard it alongside the Freudian interpretations of your dreams where you play with a cigar for hours.
    Isn't it time for a colourful metaphor?

  3. #23
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xander View Post
    The thing which I found, in relation to the whole "which system works" etc, is that no system is complete and each was designed with a different perspective, aim and final point. Like any system you need to look at why it was designed before you can properly critique it's success.

    Anyhow I've used quite a few psych tests and I think that the combined results paint quite a good picture but individually none of them nail it. I mean how many people come to question why I'm an INTP? They should see my Firo-B scores, then they'd worry. Then I could show them my father's, for an ENTJ he defeats most commonly held beliefs about them.

    No system can really fully encompass the human psyche and still be useful. Each is it's own handbook to a different facet of personality. Pick one or pick and mix, it doesn't matter as long as you realise that any system which attempts to abbreviate a persons being into something which takes less than a week to say is going to be missing out large swathes of information. Hell you can't even necessarily get all of the information you'd need for such a complete write up... well as far as I know.

    Anyhow no system has been proved as accurate to the satisfaction of the rules lawyers so why not believe in the enneagram and see if it gets you anywhere? If it doesn't then discard it alongside the Freudian interpretations of your dreams where you play with a cigar for hours.
    So there haven't been any studies done, or someone who has used the system with a couple of thousand people with very good results.

  4. #24
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cascademn View Post
    I do not know enough about the enneagram system to know how 'arbitrary' it might really be, but in my mind any of the personality systems (including mbti) could be viewed as equally arbitrary.

    For me personally, enneagram speaks to me in many ways more than mbti does. I'm very much one to go to underlying motivations in human behavior and personality - what drives each of us to do things, and why. I also think the disintegration/integration concepts are valid, and they speak more to the reality of personality - just that we aren't in one state of emotional/mental health all of the time - we might fluctuate. Personality isn't [usually] stagnant. Mbti doesn't account for that as easily. At least on the surface. I had 'a ha' moments months back when I was reading enneagram type 4 (which is probably my best fit) - but mbti descriptions often have been sources of confusion for me, which is why for a while I was really unsure what my type actually was.

    And really..with mbti...the majority of people DON'T know the theory itself and have no idea about all of the cognitive functions, 'shadow' theory, and all of that. And....if your average person just takes the mbti test and doesn't dig very deeply, he's probably gonna be misinformed. It's only us weird ones who are really into it and are on a web forum about it! And we're definitely the minority!! So is mbti then even practical if very few people REALLY know much about it?? (and I'm not saying I know much - there are people on this site who know far more than I do about mbti!)
    I very frequently get insights into people's motivations and I am usually correct in those instances where I can verify motivations, so I think that I would probably enjoy the Enne.

  5. #25
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dissonance View Post
    2*9 = 18 (this is assuming you either have one wing or the other)
    ....
    So you have to have a wing? You can't just be straight up?

  6. #26
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zybd03 View Post
    Hurley states wings only apply to indicate your support center, which is the center closest to your preferred center. The centers are Thinking (Types 5, 6, 7), Doing (Types 8, 9, 1), and Feeling (Types 2, 3, 4). Types 3, 6, and 9 do not have wings at all. So an example would be a Type 4 could only have 5 as a wing, since the Feeling center is preferred and supported by the Thinking center. The Doing center is repressed for the Type 4.

    According to the theory, you are only one Enneagram type.
    They left out the Be-ing types, I fear.
    I'm thinking of Keirsey's NF types who are driven by the need to BE, who are engaged in the search for self, whose "purpose in life is to have a purpose in life", who desires to be unique and significant.

    If I recall, I think that may coincide with one or two of the enneagram points.

    Thanks for that concise explanation. I love it when things get boiled down to where I can memorize them.

  7. #27
    Luctor et emergo Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    MBTI is function based and creates its 16 archetypes from functions, and the functions together supposedly cover "all cases." (It can still be debated whether this is accurate, but at least the logic is followable.)

    The Enneagram is essentially a collection of nine archetype seemingly driven more by the diagram than vice versa. There is no inherent proof that there are only nine archetypes of human beings (and the Threes can sometimes become a catch-all since they are defined as not being defined, in a sense).
    RUBBISHHHH...

    Read up on Threes. Catch all my arse.

    Quote Originally Posted by athenian200 View Post
    I don't think it was developed by Muslims, but by some people who were into that New Age spirituality/chakra-type stuff or something. That was what I heard.
    Then you heard horribly, horribly wrong.

    Socionics is most consistent, both logically and scientifically. It is far superior to MBTT. The Enneagram's goal is totally different. It offers self-development. Socionics offers a theory for finding your best match in relationships.

    What does MBTT offer?


    ...


    ?

  8. #28
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    ...
    What does MBTT offer?
    ...
    It offers understanding of why other people don't see things the way you do, don't want to do what you want to do, and why they act differently from you.

    MBTT has helped me greatly in understanding my husband and my children and getting along with them better.

    It also is the most widely used theory right now. I can't tell you how nice it is when I ask someone if they know what their MB type is, and they tell me yes. I instantly gain insight in how to successfully communicate with and conduct business with this person.

    I can't tell you how frustrated I used to be because I wanted to plan something 3 months ahead of time, and my husband wanted to "cross that bridge when we come to it"! But after learning MBTT, I realized that my husband wanted to wait, not because he hates me and he thinks my ideas are stupid, but because he prefers to leave his options open. That gave me something to work with.

    My middle son is academically, the total opposite of me. If I had not known MBTT, I might have tried to force him into a mold that he would not have been able to tolerate and could have driven him to severe rebellion. Barron and Tieger's books especially, gave me valuable insight into my son so that I could appreciate him for who he is instead of trying to make him who I wanted him to be.

    Finally for my own peace of mind and my own self-acceptance, MBTT has been the most helpful to me. I was so relieved to discover there were other people in the world like me and that there wasn't anything "wrong" with me because of the way I am. I'm only different, not defective.

    Just off the top of my head, those are some reasons why I value MBTT, but I do have to give credit to Barron and Tieger for making the information practical.

  9. #29
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    RUBBISHHHH...

    Read up on Threes. Catch all ...
    Just for the record, there are some authors who do see 3s as the catch all - Don Richard Riso and Russ Hudson, Walter Geldart.

    And a couple who see 6 as the catch all - Renee Baron and Elizabeth Wagele.

    Generally speaking threes are usually considered EN-Js.
    Type Correlations

  10. #30
    Senior Member INTJMom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zybd03 View Post
    ... and have found Hurley and Dobson to be the most clear description of the Enneagram.
    ...
    Which of their books do you recommend?

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