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  1. #21
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    7w6 enfp female with 5w4 infj boyfriend represent! i skimmed through the thread real quick . . . what do you want to know? i'm not sure how to even describe our thang . . . it's confusing to even me. we spend a lot of time at home . . . a lot . . . um . . . what else to say??? it's really really really hard to figure out how psychologically healthy / sane my SO is . . . that sounds horrible but he is very paradoxical / contradictory / fluid & i guess just when i think i have him figured out he up & confuses me again . . . maybe this is what i like??? no, that's not it.

  2. #22
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    ok but to respond to the original post or whatever it's called . . . what makes the 5w4 highly desirable is the intelligence - with soul, the depth - with heart, the objective - with warmth kinda thing . . . so so so so so hard to find anyone (irl) with those 2 opposing traits or that "dualism" (i suck with words but i'm sure you guys kinda get the idea). i've always deeply deeply known that this is what i desired in a mate but always thought i'd have to make a sacrifice one or the other cuz you can't have both in 1 person. like i used to think hhmmm . . . should i go for the intellectual robot or the hypersensitive drama queen artsy fartsy woe is me tragic romantic pity party person . . . ugh! decisions decisions . . . then when i learned about the 5w4 (on paper) i was so happy to find out that i can have both at the same time . . . DELICIOUS!

  3. #23
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Affably Evil View Post
    That you like hunting elusive game, I think.
    i wonder how this is different for females than males. i feel like i assume the same impetus, that the other person must not only discover me but also commit to targeting me and only me. i wonder if it works better in the female 5w4 situation or if it's equally confusing and contradictory for the pursuer. in the male situation, it runs highly contrary to the most mainstream of gender relations. i can't yet see how deeply it runs in some of those smaller, more alternative tributaries.

    Quote Originally Posted by revolve View Post
    7w6 enfp female with 5w4 infj boyfriend represent! i skimmed through the thread real quick . . . what do you want to know? i'm not sure how to even describe our thang . . . it's confusing to even me. we spend a lot of time at home . . . a lot . . . um . . . what else to say??? it's really really really hard to figure out how psychologically healthy / sane my SO is . . . that sounds horrible but he is very paradoxical / contradictory / fluid & i guess just when i think i have him figured out he up & confuses me again . . . maybe this is what i like??? no, that's not it.
    1 how does the being at home work for you? i'm sorry, i forget--what is your subtype? was it an sx type? i am interested in how this premise would play out across different enfp factions. this compromise, in fact, seems like one of the most difficult. perhaps most strongly with an so/sx. the unbendy unwielding 5w4 (especially for sx/sp types) and the friends of the so could easily clash and clash hard, i imagine. do you get bored at home? do you have a lot of small group interactions with other couples or a stable friend group? i've had this before with an so and it was pretty smooth, i would say. we didn't take advantage of it enough. my entp 7w6 sx/so friend and his infp 4w5 significant other get out a lot. they have a pretty consistent group of people who have been well-selected, but they vary their activities quite well. i'm always impressed at how well they find novel, but still focused experiences. a richard dawkins talk. an art show. a play at one of the local theatres. and they balance their own individual interests and social activities very well too. but j wants to be more on the same page, i think, and letting go in that sense seems really important. (fidelia talked about it in another thread, but when in a relationship, i have a difficult time waiting around to see what my so is going to do. like a qb who can't move on to his second read, and just waits around and gets sacked!)
    2 it's difficult to judge each other based on our own individual criteria which arrive at some similar goals and purposes but go through such different processes. what are the biggest question marks for you or things that bother you the most?
    3 i don't know about your so, but i can have all the knowledge in the world but still not know how to implement it. it still might not have turned into good habits, i might not have cultivated the right practices, and the presence of mind, the awareness that would naturally effortlessly invisibly incorporate such knowledge. so i can be way dumber than i actually am, or i can speak about a psychological problem with great expertise and then still struggle immensely with it even as i'm coming to terms with the idea of it. the intestinal line from my thoughts to my habits is miles and miles and miles and miles long. this is where i always turn to my Ne dom folks to help me learn how to ride the bike, so to speak. help me find the starting point, the subjective beginning, and build a little story that will codify this understanding into a memorable experience for me, an episodic type of learning. that will take me from the world of interiors into the world of experience for all of those aha realizations about what it's like to be something other than what you've been.

    Quote Originally Posted by revolve View Post
    ok but to respond to the original post or whatever it's called . . . what makes the 5w4 highly desirable is the intelligence - with soul, the depth - with heart, the objective - with warmth kinda thing . . . so so so so so hard to find anyone (irl) with those 2 opposing traits or that "dualism" (i suck with words but i'm sure you guys kinda get the idea). i've always deeply deeply known that this is what i desired in a mate but always thought i'd have to make a sacrifice one or the other cuz you can't have both in 1 person. like i used to think hhmmm . . . should i go for the intellectual robot or the hypersensitive drama queen artsy fartsy woe is me tragic romantic pity party person . . . ugh! decisions decisions . . . then when i learned about the 5w4 (on paper) i was so happy to find out that i can have both at the same time . . . DELICIOUS!
    i'll agree with this, and i do feel validated by this way of being seen, but how do you balance 5w4s being so unfun with your e7 desire to have fun all the time? i am fun to banter with, to talk with, to challenge and play with/against, especially in a one-on-one interaction. i will challenge you, see you down to the core, tease you, share with you, and many other related things. but i'm really not that fun to go bowling with unless i have a lot of drinks and i don't really do that often enough and even then i'm still not ever going to be the life of the party, i'm just going to be sloppier and more open. it still is like 1/7 of the e7 or 1/5 of the e3 or 1/2 of the e4 dynamism.

  4. #24
    Seriously Delirious Udog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    what do you see as the keys for 5s and 7s? i'd be curious to hear your impressions of 5s from the perspective of the other, of other types, as well.
    I can't really go in depth that easily. Some 7s really appreciate the intelligence of 5s, though. The pairing works really well when 5s can take the ideas of 7s and develop them in ways the 7 wouldn't naturally be able to.

    As a 9, I find 5s to be very fun to talk to and I usually get along well with them. I can always count on them to have something of interest to say on pretty much any given topic. They may not really enjoy talking about feelings all that often, but they tend to be good at expressing their caring in creative, concrete ways. (It's easier for them to show than to tell.)

    Quote Originally Posted by The_World_As_Will View Post
    Why do you think this is so Udog?, that 4w3's are really attracted to 5w4s?, lol What's so special about us really?
    4w3s tend to be the most emotional of the enneagram types, and 5s tend to be the most intellectual. Polarity creates attraction. 5w4s, however, tend to have a hidden sensitivity and emotional element that resonates with the 4w3.

  5. #25
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    I wrote this earlier in the day…when I hadn’t had enough coffee…and then couldn’t log on again in order to get it posted (am I the only one having difficulty accessing TypeC lately?). Now I am questioning its relevancy but whatevs.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    but how do you balance 5w4s being so unfun with your e7 desire to have fun all the time? i am fun to banter with, to talk with, to challenge and play with/against, especially in a one-on-one interaction. i will challenge you, see you down to the core, tease you, share with you, and many other related things. but i'm really not that fun to go bowling with unless i have a lot of drinks and i don't really do that often enough and even then i'm still not ever going to be the life of the party, i'm just going to be sloppier and more open.
    I never thought of my 5w4 as being ‘unfun’. Never. I mean, I am surrounded by 7s irl and, as you know, am somehow strongly 7 myself…and I know that, at least where my small sample is concerned, interesting = fun.

    I mean, again, at least with regards to the 7s I know…they create their own fun by making it interesting to themselves. I do this too. I can make going to the grocery store interesting. Or doing laundry interesting. Or sitting in a waiting room interesting…in my own mind. I can entertain myself in my own mind and do not need the SO wearing a lampshape at the party in order to experience this (although whoa…I will say that would have been extraordinarily interesting to have seen).

    The only challenge I faced in this regard was how scheduled everything had to be. I can’t speak for all 7s but I believe many 7s know there is much ‘interest’ to be had when you abandon the ‘planned schedule’ (just a teeny tiny bit) every once and a while…but the 5w4 in my life basically, for whatever reason, seemed completely unable to do this. I would joke (in my mind)…’from 6:14 – 6:16 we will read the menu’ and so on. Obviously, I do not think all 5s are like this.

    I also think the e5 in my life was so/sp and could become a little arrogant. That arrogance was the most painful, hurtful, challenging…and I think would be challenging for many 7s.

    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    but i can't reconstruct the ordering process they go through to build their own pragmatic truth/story very easily. it's like i have their playbook and i can kind of jump their play based on formation and other things, but i don't know what their goals are within their play, or how they interpret the meaning of their play.
    I might have something I can say to this but are you able to ask it again in a different way? I want to be clear on what you are asking.

  6. #26
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Udog, at times it feels difficult to localize care. i feel more compassionate or less compassionate. the other part of care is when i am appreciative or not appreciative. and, perhaps, when i am inspired or not inspired (probably desirous, which makes me feel more purposeful and in touch with an aspect of life). i get more seratoniny and believe i can harmonize anything.

    the difficult part may seem like not being able to express how i feel, but i struggle most with those moments of feeling that prime action, that are used to locate and articulate intention. desire as an sx type feels erratic because the natural tendency feels like i'm constantly cycling through a what do i want most of all right now picturebook. but, as a j type, it's not even really tied to experience, it's more tied to pseudo-objective factors, standards, images. this is why a huge market like nyc is so relentless for addictive personalities. the world of could have and could want is so exponentially big banged outward into infinity.

    but the e5 miserliness makes holding back, not taking on unneeded commitments or declarations, not voicing an intention that seems so fickle and uncontrolled and out of our hands, a kind of de facto state we have to overcome. partly by realizing that we don't have to identify with our desires in every single moment, and that self-discipline and saying no to ourselves is crucial for us to create any enduring sense of purpose and know what matters to us.

    but it also mixes with what the world as will has mentioned, and when we're at our worst, it's just a kind of crippling sense of self-awareness. we need a lot of practice to learn how to smooth out our interactions especially when they are emotionally heightened by strong desires, wanting to make a great impression, owning your feelings in the moment, things you've rehearsed or built up ahead of time in your imagination, finding the right social frame in the moment when you are too conscious of yourself, the kind of nervous head type anxiety when you see negative consequences lingering and you want to avoid pain, negative emotions, a situation that would trap you into seeing yourself a certain way, confirm your deepest fears/concerns/worries, etc.

  7. #27
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    I wrote this earlier in the day…when I hadn’t had enough coffee…and then couldn’t log on again in order to get it posted (am I the only one having difficulty accessing TypeC lately?). Now I am questioning its relevancy but whatevs.

    I never thought of my 5w4 as being ‘unfun’. Never. I mean, I am surrounded by 7s irl and, as you know, am somehow strongly 7 myself…and I know that, at least where my small sample is concerned, interesting = fun.

    I mean, again, at least with regards to the 7s I know…they create their own fun by making it interesting to themselves. I do this too. I can make going to the grocery store interesting. Or doing laundry interesting. Or sitting in a waiting room interesting…in my own mind. I can entertain myself in my own mind and do not need the SO wearing a lampshape at the party in order to experience this (although whoa…I will say that would have been extraordinarily interesting to have seen).

    The only challenge I faced in this regard was how scheduled everything had to be. I can’t speak for all 7s but I believe many 7s know there is much ‘interest’ to be had when you abandon the ‘planned schedule’ (just a teeny tiny bit) every once and a while…but the 5w4 in my life basically, for whatever reason, seemed completely unable to do this. I would joke (in my mind)…’from 6:14 – 6:16 we will read the menu’ and so on. Obviously, I do not think all 5s are like this.

    I also think the e5 in my life was so/sp and could become a little arrogant.
    That arrogance was the most painful, hurtful, challenging…and I think would be challenging for many 7s.
    1 so true! i think i'm also measuring multiple things unclearly. i think so types, e7s included, often align quite a bit more with the social reality than with sx or sp types. meaning, their sense of fun often feels more closely linked to what is considered fun by the majority. yes--lampshades. i don't know if this is true, but it is my hypothesis. they are usually diffuse enough to pick up the majority rules culture pretty well. but equally possible is that i just don't understand what e7s feel like internally, and i misinterpret them in a way that is based on my own insecurities (group phobia in the sense of ultimately feeling isolated from the majority of groups, especially large groups, most of the time; and also how the group has so much power to define your value, to not see you as you are). i just don't know how to measure without ranking and hierarchy, but e7s believe ardently in heterarchy.

    maybe more interestingly than what i said here, tho, is how awesome e7 types are at making everything a game. not even a game that is won or lost, but just fun, challenging, enthusiastic, exciting, and novel. if "too boring" is not a dampener as long as one is interesting and capable of constant evolution, creativity, and forward motion, then what are the big dampeners? more about pessimism vs optimism than unfun vs fun? what about too serious vs too light? maybe this also has to do with subtype, and an so vs an sx would react differently.

    2 the schedule thing to me is really funny. i don't think i'm that bad, but i do feel entitled at times and i need to combat that actively. my plan-making, time management, procrastination, and needing to really gear up to get motivated sometimes contribute to this sense of entitlement. just a sense of how things should go rather than shutting the fuck up and experiencing life in a more present, here and now, unique differences that make up THIS, right-brained way. this seems like the j/p split, and i'll admit that i imagine e1s and e5s are also probably the most annoying at this (somewhat critical sense of how things should be???). maybe this is why e7s, caught in between them, are the most opposite and most fun!!!

    3 how did you interpret the arrogance? critical? judgy? focused on exteriors rather than on the subjective experience of a person? the empathy we feel relies on us seeing the extroverted context, but we're better off when we work a sense of ourselves and our own experience into the situation. it helps promote us reaching a better critical equilibrium between self and other, between expectations and acceptance. it helps us avoid being too critical of ourselves but also of others. i started out as very critical of others but the w4 kind of kicked my ass and turned it inward. when it's most tumultuous, it feels like being stuck in a revolving door of other critique and self critique. shhhhh breathe.

    I might have something I can say to this but are you able to ask it again in a different way? I want to be clear on what you are asking.
    meh, i'm just caught up in my own jargon because it's what i use to think with. it's mainly the exteriority vs interiority thing of PiJe vs PeJi. i'm seeing the outcomes of the plays and using all these "extroverted"/"objective" "facts" to Je statistically analyze/organize them. the alternative is to have spent time experiencing the plays and/or experiencing the process designing the plays and then seeing someone else do it and KNOW their plays based on the conflicts and goals you discovered when experiencing the process yourself, rather than using this Je sorting technique heuristic.

    it makes the process (communication, conflict resolution) sometimes convoluted when we can assume something way different as the motivation for an action or outcome plan. i sometimes force people to communicate with me and throw all my fishing hooks into the water to see what sticks. i really like being on the same page, or of having my understanding be accurate. we j types rely on external consistency too much to read situations and p types rely to much on their own motives and behaviors projected into the subjective position of others. the p types in my life show me a world from the inside of things, of experience, that blows my mind. it's really amazing, it provides a support structure that helps me reconstruct interiors through conversation when i wouldn't be able to do it by myself. it immediately checks my occasional tendencies for arrogance or aloofness, because others help me see my s.o. or the person i am struggling with from a centered, experiential perspective situated where they are rather than merely as a confluence of external forces and as something swept up in that expression/co-articulation (of something completely outside of any "who this person is" sense--ok i might be making this too extreme, but this is the fundamental tension).

  8. #28
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    if "too boring" is not a dampener as long as one is interesting and capable of constant evolution, creativity, and forward motion, then what are the big dampeners? more about pessimism vs optimism than unfun vs fun? what about too serious vs too light?
    Perhaps it is unusual…contradictory to what you may read on this forum but all the ENFP e7s I know are very devoted to and contented with their IxxJ spouses and Sos (I apologize…I hope this isn’t a derailment because I am not exactly sure of e-types of the SOs here. Likewise, these are all 7w6s and one 8w7). At least in my case and the cases of my friends…it is not the pessimism or the seriousness or the unfunness that causes grief. Really. Again, I think any pessimism, seriousness or unfunness that exists does create some form of never-ending interest which is intellectually stimulating for the 7…and…dare I say it? In spite of the fact it is perhaps unhealthy…I think it may ground the 7 and alleviate their own anxiety by focusing on these traits in others rather than themselves.

    The only complaints I ever hear revolve around…I guess the need to control on the part of the SO…or perhaps the desire for a perfect standard (don’t exactly know what how to name it). Like I never hear from them such things as ‘my gf doesn’t like to go out’ or ‘my bf is all doom-and-gloom’. But rather…(and these are irl stories I have heard)…’I got in trouble because I trimmed the shrubs back too far’…and…’I didn’t organize the plastic containers properly in the pantry’…and…’I got busted for poor table manners again’…and…’I got screamed at for leaving the dryer on when I went for my walk.’

    The grief probably stems from the fact that many ExxPs e7s have been ‘getting in trouble’ for these kind of things since they were children. They are just not as aware. And it is sad really. These e7s have brilliant, amazing minds but can be made to feel very incompetent in this kind of ‘perfect world’. Perhaps it is the case that, where e7s are concerned, learning how to be okay with the fact that the toothpaste will forevermore be missing its cap is far more important than concerning oneself with ‘am I exciting?’


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    how did you interpret the arrogance? critical? judgy?
    Back to the actual topic of this thread. Yes, I am a female…most likely e6 with a powerful 7 wing…or I guess possibly a 7 with a powerful 6 wing that is in denial…or a female that was scheduled to be a 7 but due to life events became a 6…or a…
    And I think e5 males are *drool*. I say that because when I talk about my e5 experience I don’t want anyone to think I assign his behaviors to all e5s. God no. e5s are so damn great. I just hooked up with one that I came to view as a bit troubled. And yes, he would become very arrogant. And I interpreted that arrogance as excessively critical, judge-y, ‘who died and made you the ruler of the entire universe-y?’. It was like a different personality emerged. And all of a sudden I would be left thinking…”Oh hello Arrogant Ass personality…where did [insert name] go? Oh he’s sleeping? Well, can you please wake [insert name] up and bring him back? Yah thanks.’ I mean, I thought my e5 was the most handsome man alive…and yet when he became ‘arrogant guy’…he would become so ugly to me…so unattractive.

    Yah so all of a sudden the King of Feland would become Mr. I Know Everything and Have All the Answers. And he would have to convince others of their wrongness. And I am thinking…what do you care if they believe in God or aliens? How is you convincing some random person at a party that there is no such thing as ghosts going to make your world a better place? But you are right. I know he is constantly ripping himself to shreds in his mind. But every once and a while he would apparently take a vacation from that and turn it outward.


    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    but i can't reconstruct the ordering process they go through to build their own pragmatic truth/story very easily. it's like i have their playbook and i can kind of jump their play based on formation and other things, but i don't know what their goals are within their play, or how they interpret the meaning of their play.
    I think I didn’t fully understand this at first because you are using words that are foreign to me. ‘Construct, order, process, build, formation…’although I do see the words ‘jump’ and ‘play’ which fit. But you are not referring to ‘jumping’ and ‘playing’ in the strategic sense right? This is ‘jumping’ and ‘playing’ for the sake of ‘jumping and playing’. Right? Okay…I’m being really stupid.

    I did not know anything about the enneagram prior to coming to TypeC. Still…the individual that explained it all to me was an e5 friend in my real life (who is in a relationship with an e7. Weird. Sorry…I just thought of that). Nevertheless…while I wouldn’t put these two together in my mind…I do see this pairing an awful lot irl, on the forums and in art. I think U-dog speaks to it far better than I ever could. There is definitely something there, but like you, I still have so many questions myself. Maybe I will go watch WALL-E again. That to me is a good example of how this relationship feels like for me. All I know is that I am forever drawn to the e5. They are beautiful creatures.

  9. #29
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    i wonder how this is different for females than males. i feel like i assume the same impetus, that the other person must not only discover me but also commit to targeting me and only me. i wonder if it works better in the female 5w4 situation or if it's equally confusing and contradictory for the pursuer.
    Meh. I find that I need to put some of myself out there (and want to), just to make sure that the guys who target me know what they're getting themselves into. I want to be understood, not entirely elusive, and once someone understands me, DESIRE me for being who I am.

    Romance isn't a game overall, in general it's a negotiation and a dance. This sense of remaining elusive on purpose seems so counterproductive to me and unnecessarily frustrating.

    (Then again, maybe this is why I suck at this stuff. )
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  10. #30
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    Female INTP 5w4 sp/so reporting for duty to agree with everything Jen said and wonder aloud which male enneagrams or types would feel attracted to this "elusive game" as Affably Evil called us. What´s the attraction?
    The good life is one inspired by love and guided by knowledge. Neither love without knowledge, nor knowledge without love can produce a good life. - Bertrand Russell
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