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Thread: 7w8 or 8w7?

  1. #11
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    btw...the only thing I don't identify with is the paranoia and passive aggressive stances some 6's take apparently. I rarely think anyone is out to get me or is plotting against me or some such nonsense. That's not how I view others. I don't really "test" my friends either. I don't get that. Yet. When asked if I "trust" so and so. I don't understand those questions. It's not a 100% answer for me yes. If I know someone I know their strengths and weaknesses and if I know someone's weakness I'm not going to trust them in that realm but I will trust them in all other realms. I think of trust as something that is compartmentalized. This makes sense to me yet others are confused by it.

    I'm not entirely sure but I feel the 5 wing is just as big as the six for me. I often feel they are directly at odds but I suppose it works.

    Anyway...rambling...
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  2. #12
    Artisan Conquerer Halla74's Avatar
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    I am the 7w8 poster child.
    If you ponder on what you know of me, and how that relates to your 7w8/8w7 conundrum, I think it might shed some light on it.
    You come across as a free spirited bad ass.
    That is the essence of 7w8.

    A good friend of mine is an ENTP 8w7, and when he walks into a room and has business on his mind everybody shuts the fuck up and sits down and listens.
    I walk into a room under similar circumstances and and unite the attendees with a few opening lines, but when I shift the agenda to the work at hand the fun and games are over.

    I've shut people down in meetings before, especiallly those having meaningless sidebar conversations, or those who tried to interrupt me before I was done speaking.
    I simply look at them and say (to the former) "Well, if you all could stop the chit-chat and listen you'd realize that I just solved your problem for you. Would you like me to repeat myself when you are done with your conversation?" (or to the latter) <Pointing at person and firing off glaring eyes with raised, stern voice "I am not done talking yet."

    7w8s are bad asses when we need to be.
    8w7s are just in bad ass mode by default, whether warranted/needed or not.
    I'm very fond of both types, not that I'm biased or anything.
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  3. #13
    The Memes Justify the End EcK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I'm very fond of both types, not that I'm biased or anything.
    Nah, you're obviously being objective as only 7w8s and 8w7s can be.
    Not that I'd have any personal interest here. I'm and entp, everybody knows we're relativists and stuff.
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  4. #14
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Halla74 View Post
    I am the 7w8 poster child.
    If you ponder on what you know of me, and how that relates to your 7w8/8w7 conundrum, I think it might shed some light on it.
    You come across as a free spirited bad ass.
    That is the essence of 7w8.

    A good friend of mine is an ENTP 8w7, and when he walks into a room and has business on his mind everybody shuts the fuck up and sits down and listens.
    I walk into a room under similar circumstances and and unite the attendees with a few opening lines, but when I shift the agenda to the work at hand the fun and games are over.

    I've shut people down in meetings before, especiallly those having meaningless sidebar conversations, or those who tried to interrupt me before I was done speaking.
    I simply look at them and say (to the former) "Well, if you all could stop the chit-chat and listen you'd realize that I just solved your problem for you. Would you like me to repeat myself when you are done with your conversation?" (or to the latter) <Pointing at person and firing off glaring eyes with raised, stern voice "I am not done talking yet."

    7w8s are bad asses when we need to be.
    8w7s are just in bad ass mode by default, whether warranted/needed or not.
    I'm very fond of both types, not that I'm biased or anything.
    I identify with 8 more than 7. If I'm not a 5w6 or 6w5 then I'm certain I'm an 8. (but an 8 ISTP? does that happen? I know positively that I am an introvert). I'm pretty sure I'm a counterphobic 6w5. I hate to say it because the description is less than stellar (wtf enneagram!?) but it just makes sense. It's why I get along with 8's so well but I've noticed they have a lot more self confidence than me. Yet we share the same outlook. Especially 8w9's for some reason.

    Here's a clip from a posting: What's funny is the part in bold. I have been described myself just as such! (someone recently told me that they couldn't "get me" and that I was "mysterious". I didn't get this at all. I feel I'm very straight forward and told him this. He used the iceberg example! Weird).


    Sixes with a 5 wing are generally introverted and somewhat intellectual. When healthy, they often have many realms of interest as well as surprising competencies and skills. May have an original and idiosyncratic point of view. Can be bookish; some are interested in history or feel rooted in the past or related to a long tradition. Also good at predicting the future. May test potential friends for a long time but once you're in, you're in - a friend for life. When more entranced, they may project a willed remoteness. Have a "tip of the iceberg" quality - they show little but you sense hidden dimensions, intensity and activity. Tension between needing to be seen and withdrawing for protection. Might act arrogant or cryptic or cynical when afraid. When phobic, can be diplomatic and say things without saying them. Entranced counterphobics are either cool and loners or argumentative, tending towards violence. Can brood over injustices to them, entertain conspiracy theories, spend time alone building cases. Paranoia in private. May like secretive behind-the-scenes group activity. Sneaky vengeance, passive/aggressive toward others, self-attacking and self-destructive at home.
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  5. #15
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    5w6 is more focused on knowledge as a coping/preparedness/confidence strategy. i've personally known a few 5w6 istps but no 6w5 istps. the 6w5s i've known have all been istj and intj (my dad is a 6w5 istj). i find 5s get more alarmed from disagreement and 6s just get really dismissive. if power is involved than this can drastically fluctuate, as 6s in general seem to have a hyper-responsive to authority. 5s might be more fearful of misunderstanding and get nasty about it, but 6s are more afraid of someone trying to control them. i don't know if any of this makes sense. i might also be completely misdiagnosing this and just pointing out a difference in the istp fear of Fe manipulation of the social reality and the Te itj fear of being controlled strategically through the use of aggressive authority and other tools of power. i've actually seen some horrifyingly bad 5w6 istp-6w5 intj conflicts. the 6w5 was a phobic type tho, otherwise they might have murdered each other. the distrust was amazingly palpable at all times.

  6. #16
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Thanks State I Am In.

    Your description solidifies the 6w5 for myself. Yet I nodded my head 'yes' in relating to your first sentence. I'm sure I'm an ISTP. As far as control is concerned if I respect the authority then I can definitely play by their rules but if what they're doing doesn't make common sense to me then I do my own thing. I find a way to circumvent them.

    Is it possible to have balanced type and wing?
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  7. #17
    mercenary SiegfriedSchtauffen's Avatar
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    I was reading about 8s and found this thread. I've noticed that the 6w5 description has a surprisingly huge overlap with ISTP descriptions.

    To me the most defining and unique trait in 6w5 was "insecurity". An 8 confronts without hesitation in order to avoid very bad undesirable situations while the 6w5 seems to react too late.

    My view on being a w8: If someone treats me like an idiot I immediately bring up the issue in an assertive way. If things can't be resolved (or worse: I'm still being treated as an idiot) then I switch from "resolve" mode to "eliminate" mode and someone/something gets "eliminated" or "blacklisted" (not necessarily in a physical way) - fortunately this happens very rarely (EDIT: As Ursa pointed it out, I forgot to add some context: this behaviour is present when I'm forced into the situation - like treated as an idiot by a boss - in any other case I rather switch to ignore mode and don't treat the person seriously). If I'm not being treated like an idiot most people don't even notice my w8. In contrast if you meet a pure 8 you don't even think about trying to treat him/her as an idiot. I hate people who treat me as an idiot - in my opinion they are much worse than opponents/enemies whom you can often respect.

    In my experience most ISTPs are attracted by a life in which they have more (total?) freedom and control (like not going to work and do as a boss wishes + a general disrespect of authority). At the same time ISTPs are quite bad at focusing on higher level goals for longer periods that is required to be able to reach the desired freedom and control. Yeah, ISTPs VS boring jobs under supervision... This is a huge conflict and different ISPTs with different backgrounds handle this conflict differently. Some try to accept it, bury their heads into the sand, or find "a good job" that provides an acceptable/bearable balance for the individual in the given situation. Some are more badass, some are less badass when it comes to rulebreaking.

    Probably every ISTP has a degree of conflict with authority. Fortunately with some self discipline and smart/hard work it is possible to use ISTP energy spikes to achieve higher level goals and raise the game to the next level. :-) A bit of willingness to focus can result in great achievements and self confidence. Increase your freedom (there are various ways to do this) and then you will have much less problems related to "you VS authority". Become self employed, contractor, freelancer, entrepreneur, whatever... Some of these have a steep and difficult learning curve for an ISTP but then provide a more rewarding lifestyle than "a good job". In my opinion this applies not only if you are an individualist. If you can exercise greater control you have much better chances to significantly improve the lives of others around you.

    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    Sixes feel that if they can find "one sure thing," they can quiet their restlessness, and achieve some semblance of much needed "peace of mind."
    This reminds me of the never-ending itchiness of some 7s. I've accepted that I won't find the "one sure thing" and I get bored of things quickly. Maybe if I get older, but most probably not. I'll be itchy even in my coffin. :-) Till then I'm going to find effective ways to avoid bosses/authority, and effective ways to earn time/money to aid my itchiness. In my opinion what ISTPs need are different kinds of adventures regardless of their flavour/enneagram.

    Stamping oneself with an enneagram for life is a bad idea. Approximating the current situation with an enneagram is OK. Circumstances and goals can change. As a result one might get struck with a different (and hopefully better) balance. And anyway, ISTPs are quite universal and come in so many flavours, probably one of the most colourful "species" in MBTI in this regard.
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  8. #18
    Senior Member Ursa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegfriedSchtauffen View Post
    My view on being a w8: If someone treats me like an idiot I immediately bring up the issue in an assertive way. If things can't be resolved (or worse: I'm still being treated as an idiot) then I switch from "resolve" mode to "eliminate" mode and someone/something gets "eliminated" or "blacklisted" (not necessarily in a physical way) - fortunately this happens very rarely. If I'm not being treated like an idiot most people don't even notice my w8. In contrast if you meet a pure 8 you don't even think about trying to treat him/her as an idiot. I hate people who treat me as an idiot - in my opinion they are much worse than opponents/enemies whom you can often respect.
    What do you mean specifically by you being treated as an idiot - and why do you think this triggers a reaction in you?

    8s don't care very much about how others view them. When someone treats me as an idiot - and by that I mean condescension and personal attacks in conversation - I tend to a) continue as normal and allow that person to form more responsible conclusions over time, b) give them the choice to either shape up or lose access to me or c) decide to walk away because I don't have time to waste on that attitude. I don't usually feel the need to justify or defend myself to people who take that attitude with me. 8s are assertive but not reactive in this way; the "how dare you" type of reaction to disrespect seems more counter-phobic 6 to me.

    But when treating me as an idiot entails an authority demoting me, relocating me, abrogating my rights and privileges or otherwise relegating me to a lower rung in the hierarchy (e.g. triangulating, using smear campaigns to isolate me and diminish my influence), I have massive problems with that - and make it a point to make that their massive problem too, because 8s absolutely hate to lose autonomy and control.
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  9. #19
    mercenary SiegfriedSchtauffen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa View Post
    8s don't care very much about how others view them. When someone treats me as an idiot - and by that I mean condescension and personal attacks in conversation - I tend to a) continue as normal and allow that person to form more responsible conclusions over time, b) give them the choice to either shape up or lose access to me or c) decide to walk away because I don't have time to waste on that attitude. I don't usually feel the need to justify or defend myself to people who take that attitude with me. 8s are assertive but not reactive in this way; the "how dare you" type of reaction to disrespect seems more counter-phobic 6 to me.

    But when treating me as an idiot entails an authority demoting me, relocating me, abrogating my rights and privileges or otherwise relegating me to a lower rung in the hierarchy (e.g. triangulating, using smear campaigns to isolate me and diminish my influence), I have massive problems with that - and make it a point to make that their massive problem too, because 8s absolutely hate to lose autonomy and control.
    Pretty much the same for me. I don't care what others think about me, it's their business. When I was thinking about "being treated as an idiot" I recalled some bad memories about conflicts with bosses, unbearable colleagues and some business partners. In business it is usually much more bearable because you are equal partners and you simply walk away from an idiot. However in case of "a job" where you are in a subordinate position it is more difficult. The younger me suffered from it a lot, the mercenary me was super effective at eliminating these bosses/colleagues along with their stupidity. I wasn't afraid to stand up for myself, I was right, cornered them, and won every single argument in situations like that. They never tried it again. The ridiculous thing is that I was very good at my area of expertise and no-one wanted to fire me, and usually wanted to keep me there when I decided to leave. And I left jobs quite frequently as a 7. :-D

    And anyway, I don't like being handled as a pet that is quite popular in corporate environments.

    I forgot to add that in many cases you can forge a much better relationship with you boss if you can stand up for yourself. For some reason many managers and leaders think that people have to be handled as pets but quite a few of them allow you to opt out from this treatment so usually it wasn't a huge fight. There were however some serious ones. :-D

    EDIT: I forgot to answer your actual question in the first line of your post.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ursa View Post
    What do you mean specifically by you being treated as an idiot - and why do you think this triggers a reaction in you?
    I always treated my relationship with other companies as business (including my normal jobs, not only contracts). It was exchanging a lot of my valuable time for a small amount of money. If they demanded more (like involvement in stupid politics and idiot struggles between career ladder climbers who want to use you, feeling "love" towards their product or "enthusiasm" towards extremely boring tasks, etc...) then they set themselves up for disappointment. The last thing I wanted was someone to tell me what to feel and when. This business is about exchanging my time and using my technical expertise for money - nothing else.

    In a business relationship I demand respect. If there is no respect then goodbye. In most cases I simply clarified them about the situation as described above (behind closed doors, not in a dogfight with a stupid manager in front of employees) and they were fine with that. I have a very objective cold & efficient business like style when it comes to these kind of conversations. Later as a contractor/consultant it was much simpler achieve my goals - but in my opinion the best is being isolated from companies where they want "team players" to form super ineffective teams.
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  10. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I realize I am one of these two. Problem is whenever I take an online test I tie with these very highly. I resonate a lot with eight internally but on the outside I would say 7 fits. I test as a 5 frequently (last time I took the test I got 5w6. I get 8 for superficial tests a lot) but seven and eight resonate more with me that 5w6 does when I read the description.

    So I'm here to ask people of each of those types to describe themselves. I have searched online and I can't place a difference between the two types and wings.
    It's useful to consider the head triad vs the gut triad. The head triad is motivated by the desire to prevent against future problems (fear/anxiety), while the gut triad is interested in controlling the environment for a sense of justice/peace (anger/rage).
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