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  1. #21
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    e6 here. I'm not much of a complainer...but the testing...yes. That is so hard for me to admit *cringe*

  2. #22
    can't handcuff the wind Z Buck McFate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    If you don't know you're doing it, can it really be described as "manipulation"?

    I think if something/one is making you bored or disrespecting you it's perfectly natural that you withdraw from that stimulus.
    By the time I've completely withdrawn/emotionally detached from a person, there is no question of my trying to manipulate them (there never is - the very idea is anathema to me). I've simply lost the ability to care. And once that happens there's really nothing more to say/do. If the relationship means something to me, I'll fight for a long time before that to try to keep communication going, but there comes a point where it's just more effort/pain than it's worth.
    I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

    When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

    When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
    It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
    If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.

    I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.

    The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.

  4. #24
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    I was wondering the same thing when I read the op (“Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others”), because ‘staying preoccupied with ideas and projects’ and detaching seem more like coping devices than manipulative behaviors. At least for me- I do it for the sake of itself, not to elicit a specific response from someone else.

    When I read through the other types’ supposedly ‘manipulative’ behaviors, I could see how they were manipulative. The fact that I'm only having trouble understanding how the Five description is manipulative seems maybe indicative that I can't see it because it’s too close to home. Dunno.
    I like this. Even with the e6 'testing'...where I am trying to elicit a specific response...I don't do it to manipulate per se. In other words I am trying to see the truth...not create/change what is true. It is a coping strategy to protect me from being taken 'off guard'.

  5. #25
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    It becomes manipualtive if it's avoidance .. being involved in any kind of relationship requires responsibility from each side.
    If you are "busy" as a way of not dealing with something that involves not only your feelings but those of others, it's manipulative.

    I know it's motivation seems born out of self preservation.

    The information presented is in regard to relationships. Once in a relationship the focus of responsibility changes. Most people will feel manipulated if the relationship is always on your terms.
    Maybe I am not totally clear on the definition of manipulation...or how the definition may alter still with regards to relationships

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by StarryKnights View Post
    Maybe I am not totally clear on the definition of manipulation...or how the definition may alter still with regards to relationships
    The focus is not so much on the word manipulation as it is on responsibility.
    As a 6w5, I am all to aware of the push/pull behavior inherent to both types as well as their need to self preserve.

    If a choice is made to connect, you are no longer just responsible for your feelings. The type 5 has a tendency to want the relationship but to also want to maintain a type of status that belies their need for connection. They still want to behave as if they are single in some ways.
    While they may think they are just protecting their own feelings, if the choice to do so is unilateral, it's irresponsible to the feelings of the other.
    It's the balancing act of both the type 5 and 6 to remain connected to the other while maintaining this wall of protection.
    It's hypocritical to ask others to be vulnerable in the name of your security but to not offer that same vulnerability in return.
    This is manipulation no matter how you slice it. Especially if you are making yourself unavailable in the name of "being busy".

  7. #27
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    I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.

    This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.

  8. #28
    nee andante bechimo's Avatar
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    Type Weird

    What they look for
    Dependability, strength, sexual compatibility, stimulation, variety, curiosity, intensity, involvement.

    What gets in the way
    Insisting on personal space, non-interference and postponing making commitments. Manipulates by staying preoccupied with ideas and projects and by detaching emotionally from others.

  9. #29
    Undisciplined Starry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arclight View Post
    I just want to add.. I only say this because, I am so good at not being responsible, making unilateral decisions that affect others and withdrawing on my terms.

    This is what the both the type 5 and 6 have to work on.
    I just want everything my way.

    EDIT: whoops...I forgot to put in the 'LOL' but maybe that is because I really do want everything my way...No LOL. Oh no!

  10. #30
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Like Arc says, Five practices a passive manipulation (rather than a more conscious one), seeking to divert things into the intellectual and detached, although relationships are not detached by nature. Those who attempt to require more engagement are fended off, made to feel stupid or guilty or too emotional, etc., as if there is something wrong with them for not acting more like the Five.

    Basically, the Five either has to remain completely alone (to maintain integrity) or else has to actually engage back in order to at least be fair in regards to the investments being made in her. But no one is completely self-contained; we all interact with people or benefit from other people to some degree.

    Anyway, the term "manipulation" can be quibbled over, I suppose; traditionally, the Five is selfish... a hoarder of time and resources... afraid to take risks unless the answer is already known... afraid to risk the intellectual reputation... and not realizing, by Enneagram conventions, that intellect is not meant to be hoarded and is not an end in itself, but is a gift and talent to be spent when interacting with others. It's what the Five can bring to the table as a gift, not as a means to win resources for itself while otherwise fending off intrusions into its personal space.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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