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  1. #81
    No moss growing on me Giggly's Avatar
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    Hey Peacebaby, if it's any consolation, I have trouble with people who come and go too.

  2. #82
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Yeah, I definitely look for cues and communication styles. That's just common sense. But, I still "overstep" sometimes or "read them wrong" one way or the other.

    I'll give you an example: This is not a "brag" at all - let me be the first one to say that I am not Mr. Smooth with the ladies. Not by a long shot. But, I have this recurring situation in my life that I attribute to my "sx" variant. I will meet a woman who is somehow intrigued and even attracted to my openness. A couple of them may have been sx, and a couple of them not sx. We will hit it off really well (as friends!!!) and talk about interesting stuff and, blah, blah, blah. Weeks will go by, we've gotten to know each other better, even hung out with mutual friends and done some fun things together, shared a lot of laughs, etc. Then when I find out that they are "in love" with me, I'm like: I just didn't see it coming. And I never saw them that way at all. And when I have to tell them that I don't see them that way, they become very upset. Like, "what the? What do you mean? Look at all the stuff we talked about and all the times we hung out!" "Umm, yeah, so?"

    I'm thinking it's because, as someone mentioned earlier, "I'm zooming in on that person." I'm really interested in getting to know them and what they are all about and maybe they've never experienced someone having that kind of a genuine interest and focus on them. It has certainly gone the other way too - where I end up falling and they think I'm a bit too "intense".

    It's actually happening right now with a friend of mine. With this particular girl, I've never even gone anywhere with her. I've only talked to her when I go eat at her restaurant. Good talks. Interesting talks. Many of them. But, now she's asking all the time if I want to go hang out, do this, do that. As a result, I had to scale it way back. I didn't think the girl would fall for me. She's much older than me to begin with - I'm closer to her daughter's age than I am to hers. How did I know that our talks would result in this? She was interested in what I was saying and I was genuinely interested in her. Just two people talking. And when I tell her I can't hang out, she says stuff like, "I think you're smarter than you let on. You know more than you act like you do." Inside my head I'm thinking, "Yeah, what I know is that it's become obvious that you like me and I've made it clear to you over and over in our conversations that I'm happy being single and am not interested in any form of dating or relationships right now. So, why do you continue to press me when you KNOW where I stand?"

    It sucks that I have to lose a great friend over that. We could have continued talking like a bunch of crazy teenagers and become really good friends. So, they seem to think that I had it planned the whole time: get close to them, suck them in, and then spit them out and break their heart. That's NEVER how I enter a situation. That would be pathetic. In reality it's just realizing that "oh this person is cool and interesting." And each conversation becomes progressively more interesting. But, they are the ones asking the questions about me. It was their curiosity that allowed me to open up. It wasn't me "hunting them down" and trying to break their heart. But, the result of it is that I'm a bad guy. I suppose I've got to be smarter than this and just really not go there with people that I know I wouldn't date. But, then I feel like I'm not being my self.

    Oh, and I don't know if this has any meaning or if it's just coincidence, but those women almost always seem to be Fi-dom or Fi-aux. The commonality seems to be that they never share with me that they are developing feelings in the early going. They just wait until their frustration boils over and then they blow up on me. Fe-users would probably tell you at the beginning, "I can see myself falling for you." I'm just saying, the fact that they never communicate that they are developing feelings until after it has become "full blown love", plays a role in me being so surprised by it.
    Hey, that's very interesting the distinction you made between Fe dom and aux and Fi dom and aux in regards to expressing feelings. My fe aux friend tells me I am very confusing to guys all the time. Part of it is that we, Fi types, want to be absolutely sure we have feelings. Perhaps we know that the situation won't change so we try to stuff our feelings in, but eventually, the feelings has deepened and it needs to come out and reach some sort of resolution. I don't know how I might ... prevent that ... I won't say anything until I am 'certain' I have 'true' feelings but I won't be 'certain' until my feelings are so strong that there's not much I or the other person can do to 'resolve' it peacefully. You know what I mean? I think we are more all or nothing ... When it gets to that stage, it's either you win all or lose all in the relationship, that's that.

    I think it's perfectly fine for you to be so intensely and platonic-ally interested in someone without them getting the wrong impression. You may be sending all sorts of strong signals that you don't mean, but they are 'send' anyway. Maybe how you interact is exactly identical to someone who is 'interested' might act. And also, regarding Fi dom and aux, it takes a lot for them to realize you like them and a lot for them to fall for you, so your signals and personality must be crazy awesome and intense.

  3. #83
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    But, why is there this sense that sx is the "deepest"? I see this very urgent and compelling need to experience deep intimacy with other people, but why is that somehow equated with depth of character?
    I think you're are the only one perceiving it that way.
    I can totally see where Jen and the other SXs are coming from in this thread. But your reactions at times are hostile and defensive. There is clearly some kind of gulf (perhaps created by resentment you feel towards people you have typed as SX) that is hindering understanding.

    Or, maybe for just half an hour, get out of your own head, don't count the minutes, and just get into the story? Maybe it will be more interesting than you think.
    I'll be honest with you (since we're being all carey sharey in this thread ) that response makes me bristle. I wasn't looking for advice or a lecture, I was responding to your assertion that SXs use and exploit people. We don't. More often than not people want or expect more from us than we have ever promised (as INTPness describes), just because we happen to have expressed an interest in them. You don't seem to be capable of grasping that. Perhaps because you are one of those people?
    Quote Originally Posted by mrcockburn View Post
    they seem predator-ish. Not necessarily in a rapist kind of way, but you just feel zoomed-in on.
    Fuck. It gets worse!
    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?
    No. I'm not interested in facts or feelings.
    I'm more interested in opinions and insights.

    As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?
    It depends what you are being reticent about.

    Do you think SX is more about understanding, or more about being understood?
    For me, I'm much more interested in the former. I've pretty much given up on the latter.

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    See, I don't think some facts about myself are ways to hurt me.
    I used to be much more open until I realized how vulnerable that made me to crazy stalker types.

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    How much sharing is TOO MUCH for an SX? Or is there such a thing?
    No such thing.
    Over-emoting is a HUGE turn-off for me though. If you can't share dispassionately, please don't share at all. I'm not one for hugging it out or sobbing along. My interest is more impersonal.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    How'd it go with the ESFJ, Morgan?
    I honoured the arrangement of course! Fortunately, she had forgotten and gone shopping, so I talked to hubby instead. I now don't have to feel guilty but also don't have to feel obliged to honour future invitiations. Win-win!!

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Here's what it's like for me: I'm an INTP 5w4 sx/sp = I'm pretty introverted! So, I really, really, really don't need to talk to people much at all. When I meet people and run into people, my natural instinct is to not even talk to them. If they ask me a question, give them an answer, but keep it very straightforward and simple. I really don't care to get "tangled" up in human relations very much. But, inevitably, people ask questions.

    When I answer these questions, I answer fully and honestly. I'm not good at reading into the fact that they only wanted me to say, "I'm doing good. Bye!" I thought they really wanted to know what's been going on.
    I think this is what is meant when INTPs are described as pure and childlike. I like this about us. I see it as being authentic. I won't give that information to just anyone though. They have to be worthy. So now I can do the "Fine, thanks" thing and move on without feeling like a fraud.

    Quote Originally Posted by Z Buck McFate View Post
    there are many ways to define ‘deep’. I guess my point is that ‘deep’ isn’t necessarily ‘personal’.
    Yes.

    Here’s an example of what I’d consider personal: there’s another member here I haven’t interacted with very much who doesn’t make it available to leave messages on their public wall. I think this person is kinda interesting and I’m curious why- something tells me it’s a reason I can relate to. Asking this person through a pm (though we haven’t interacted much) is what I’d consider getting personal. On the other hand: starting a thread and delving into the theoretical reasons why people don’t make it available to post on their wall is what I’d consider wanting ‘deeper’ conversation that isn’t necessarily personal.

    So where does sx fall in there?
    I don't see much difference between the two. (And I'd classify both as personal rather than deep). I'd ask if I was curious. I don't care if someone thinks I'm being "too" personal. They can always ignore me or tell me to MMOFB. I won't take offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  4. #84
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    Here’s an example of what I’d consider personal: there’s another member here I haven’t interacted with very much who doesn’t make it available to leave messages on their public wall. I think this person is kinda interesting and I’m curious why- something tells me it’s a reason I can relate to. Asking this person through a pm (though we haven’t interacted much) is what I’d consider getting personal. On the other hand: starting a thread and delving into the theoretical reasons why people don’t make it available to post on their wall is what I’d consider wanting ‘deeper’ conversation that isn’t necessarily personal.

    So where does sx fall in there?
    I don't see much difference between the two. (And I'd classify both as personal rather than deep). I'd ask if I was curious. I don't care if someone thinks I'm being "too" personal. They can always ignore me or tell me to MMOFB. I won't take offense.
    Yes, I'm not even sure what the problem is, honestly.

    If you want to know something, ask politely.
    ("Hey, i'm just curious why you have your Wall turned off. No worries if you don't want to talk about it.")
    If they choose to answer, then there you are.
    If they say no, then let it go.

    And if they are bothered by thinking such a request is "too personal" enough to be annoyed with me for even asking in such an open-ended, non-pressuring way, then I don't even want to waste a lot of energy on them because if they can't even handle questions about relatively impersonal items and routine curiosity, I'd probably be very unhappy with their lack of basic communication in a relationship. I'd be dissuaded from engaging, if I kept getting slapped. The relationship would soon just become a dance of silence and internalized in each person's head -- interacting much more with their IDEA of each other rather than more with the REALITY of each other.

    I see it as better when people take at least some responsibility for their own boundaries. Yes, it's good to be aware of boundaries and try not to step on them, but interaction involves the butting of two boundaries and finding the spot in the middle where both people are willing to go. If one person is constantly trying to avoid any boundary clash, then the relationship to me is going to suffer -- less direct communication is being made -- and meanwhile the other person is not being given opportunities to engage in turn, or maybe being stretched a bit. It just seems to be best to (1) be respectful in how you ask / put yourself out there, but still put yourself out there and (2) be willing to maturely state when someone is going somewhere you don't want to go. Relationships are dirty and organic to me, not pristine and orderly.

    With the thread concept, I'm actually more bothered when I sense someone doing a huge workaround if it seems pretty clear what their actual intent it is. It feels like a huge game to me. If you can make it general enough that no one perceives why you're asking it, I guess it works... or if there is a larger social point to be made, then it works... but otherwise it just seems like a lot of energy when a simple direct question would have sufficed.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #85
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I see it as better when people take at least some responsibility for their own boundaries. Yes, it's good to be aware of boundaries and try not to step on them, but interaction involves the butting of two boundaries and finding the spot in the middle where both people are willing to go. If one person is constantly trying to avoid any boundary clash, then the relationship to me is going to suffer -- less direct communication is being made -- and meanwhile the other person is not being given opportunities to engage in turn, or maybe being stretched a bit. It just seems to be best to (1) be respectful in how you ask / put yourself out there, but still put yourself out there and (2) be willing to maturely state when someone is going somewhere you don't want to go. Relationships are dirty and organic to me, not pristine and orderly.

    With the thread concept, I'm actually more bothered when I sense someone doing a huge workaround if it seems pretty clear what their actual intent it is. It feels like a huge game to me. If you can make it general enough that no one perceives why you're asking it, I guess it works... or if there is a larger social point to be made, then it works... but otherwise it just seems like a lot of energy when a simple direct question would have sufficed.
    Fuck yes! Just seems cowardly and weak.

    I suppose I have a problem with boundaries... this seems to be a recurring SX theme... Because I fail to see the point of them I don't respect them at all. I have no problem telling people to butt out if they are being invasive (usually judgmental rather than just curious), and I expect them to do the same with me without making a meal of it. I see almost all information as public domain and impersonal - what Jock said about the tendency to de-personalise and to separate the individual from their experiences - I don't understand why people are so precious about stuff.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I suppose I have a problem with boundaries... this seems to be a recurring SX theme... Because I fail to see the point of them I don't respect them at all. I have no problem telling people to butt out if they are being invasive (usually judgmental rather than just curious), and I expect them to do the same with me without making a meal of it. I see almost all information as public domain and impersonal - what Jock said about the tendency to de-personalise and to separate the individual from their experiences - I don't understand why people are so precious about stuff.
    I think I missed that (I haven't been keeping up with the thread), but that's really it. I can have people share their "personal" stuff with me but I process it apart from them. I feel like a lot of people are scared to share because they feel like they will judged or rejected or exposed... but people who are close to know me know they can trust me. Even if I sometimes have an opinion about the things that are shared in terms of whether it's good or bad, it typically doesn't impact how I would interact with that person; my interaction is typically determined by how they are interacting with me right then.

    This probably also contributes to my feeling that it's okay to research people online with publicly available information, to help me understand them better; I'll find things and figure out what I can, but it's not meant to be invasive. I don't go into private spaces (i.e., what amounts to breaking and entering), but if they put it out there somewhere, then to me it's open information. I post a lot of stuff on my Wall that others might be protective of, but it's just information to me, in case someone is interested in understanding me.

    Since my "rationality" is like yours here, I'm not sure where my sensitivity to the boundaries comes from. Religious guilt? Unsafe emotional environment in upbringing (i.e., bumping people's boundaries brought reprisal)? Just not sure. The older I get, the more I seem to be reverting to the impersonal standard -- expect me to engage if I'm curious, and if you don't want me there, just tell me not to go there. No need for a drama. And I'll do the same in turn. I'll get pissed if I specifically ask someone to butt out and they don't -- that's an intrusion to me, but asking? That's fine.

    I don't really like the mixed messages where people say they're inviting, then get weird if I ask certain questions and shove me back without comment as if I should have known better (or try to dodge completely), then go back to saying they don't mind and are of course open, etc., and otherwise put out conflicting signals.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  7. #87
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I think you're are the only one perceiving it that way.
    No, I'm not. But the difference I think is what was hinted at earlier, the difference between deep and personal. For me deep is more about personal, personal is usually about an intense feeling. Those are the parts I tend to protect more. I think I see what you all are getting at now - that what I consider the personal stuff doesn't necessarily feel like it needs more protection than anything else for you.

    I can totally see where Jen and the other SXs are coming from in this thread. But your reactions at times are hostile and defensive. There is clearly some kind of gulf (perhaps created by resentment you feel towards people you have typed as SX) that is hindering understanding.
    I have done my best to stretch the boundaries without offending anyone.

    I've stated what I am doing, several times over now. I have apologized in advance for using extreme examples that don't necessarily reflect my personal point of view.

    I harbour no resentment to you or anyone. I had never even thought about SO / SP / SX in the context of relationships before a week ago. It was a new place to explore. So that's what I am doing.

    I am not hostile nor am I defensive here. I've been open and candid.

    But congratulations, way to misread and overlook my clearly stated intentions.

    And yes, it makes me upset to be misread. Just so we are crystal clear. You can now revel in this knowledge as well.

    I'll be honest with you (since we're being all carey sharey in this thread ) that response makes me bristle. I wasn't looking for advice or a lecture, I was responding to your assertion that SXs use and exploit people.
    I said no such thing. Ever. Re-read every post. I shared your pain on the "social time" that was needed to sit with MS ESFJ. I see it as a nightmare too. I shared what I would do to try to help myself. If it doesn't help you, fine.

    No. I'm not interested in facts or feelings.
    I'm more interested in opinions and insights.
    @ bold: clearly.

    And that's OK.

    But I've been confusing and intermingling the difference between what kind of information is classified as deep, and instead of getting self-righteous maybe you could have helped me clarify it instead.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  8. #88
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I have done my best to stretch the boundaries without offending anyone.

    I've stated what I am doing, several times over now. I have apologized in advance for using extreme examples that don't necessarily reflect my personal point of view.

    I harbour no resentment to you or anyone. I had never even thought about SO / SP / SX in the context of relationships before a week ago. It was a new place to explore. So that's what I am doing.

    I am not hostile nor am I defensive here. I've been open and candid.

    But congratulations, way to misread and overlook my clearly stated intentions.

    And yes, it makes me upset to be misread. Just so we are crystal clear. You can now revel in this knowledge as well.



    I said no such thing. Ever. Re-read every post. I shared your pain on the "social time" that was needed to sit with MS ESFJ. I see it as a nightmare too. I shared what I would do to try to help myself. If it doesn't help you, fine.



    @ bold: clearly.

    And that's OK.

    But I've been confusing and intermingling the difference between what kind of information is classified as deep, and instead of getting self-righteous maybe you could have helped me clarify it instead.
    You're still misreading tone. You ask for feedback, produce analogies which you recognise to be offensive (whilst asking people not to get offended), then make personally critical and unpleasant remarks. (I'm still not offended, btw).
    I'm astonished that you can't see any of this. It's interesting to me though.

    I didn't realize how fundamental to communication / relationship these differences are, so I'm actually grateful for your thread.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  9. #89
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ tell me then, explicitly, what you find critical and unpleasant.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  10. #90
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    I had bolded the relevant bits, but I thought the whole post indicated that you were a bit put out. Your reply to Jennifer came off the same way.
    I don't know if you are reacting to the poster, or the mindset. I'm unable to inhabit yours to understand what it is that you are taking exception to...
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

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