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  1. #51
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I didn't point that comment at you Jennifer, and I feel I have already explained my dramatic metaphor and language choices, which to me seem extreme, but through which I am trying to find boundaries.

    Why are you personalizing this instead of trying to clarify it with me? EDIT: Perhaps I need to be more fully clear to say - "Yet that's how much of (generically) the SO stuff reads. I'm not just considering what's in this thread. I assumed that was clear but on a re-read, perhaps not.

    I feel again that you misread my intention. So you do a door-slam, minimize/dismiss the material that offended you by reading in an interpretation or intention that did not exist, then toss a passive-aggressive comment out saying "I'm finished here."

    And I am chasing this, to understand this. I am here and present and being REAL. I am saying things without the typical diplomatic polish I would apply to such conversations.

    So I am being shut off. And being judged, again. Who's truthfully not interested in understanding?

    I do respect and appreciate your exhaustion. Just please don't pin that on me or take it out on me.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #52
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    PeaceBaby,

    I can relate to Morgan's post about the ESFJ and the frustration therein. These types of things happen all the time and its very frustrating to introverted sx's.

    But, I don't think anyone is saying that all "so's" are "vacuous, superficial valley girls". Nor do I think that "so's" are incapable of being deep. For me, it's not about proving to anyone that "I'm deeper than you" or anything like that. I don't really care how deep people think I am. But, remember that you started the thread - you wanted to know about sx's and why we behave certain ways. So, here we are telling you openly and honestly why we behave the way we do. And then you read our very honest answers and turn around and tell us that "we think we have the deepest character". And that we think so's are valley girls. We're simply trying to explain to you how we see it - from our lens. If it helps you understand us better, then the thread has been a success. If you think we're just bragging about how deep we are, then the thread is a failure. I came into this thread simply to help you understand - to feed your curiosity. That's what sx's like to do. You ask us a question about why we behave the way we do or "what makes us tick", and we will help you understand. We want to share that with people. That's part of the sx mentality. Open up and share the deep things - even the frustrations we have as sx's. You've given us an opportunity to kind of "open up" and air out our frustrations, so we do it. With the intentions of helping you to understand us better.

    You can either accept that at face value or you can reject it. It's very simple: we like to be deep. We enjoy it. Very much. It makes us happy. That bit of information must be included in our descriptions of our personalities because it is so true - it's a reflection of who we are. So, please don't read it to mean that we think everyone else is a valley girl. Just hear what we are saying about "who we are". Regardless of whether "so's" can be deep people or not (I'm sure they can), the point we are trying to make is that: we love being deep. We don't apologize for that. It's just a fact. I think it's great that you are an "so" and you like to be deep too. I'm not competing with you to see who is "deeper". I'm just here to explain why I like to be deep. I've enjoyed the thread and I hope it continues. If you have more questions, I'm happy to chip in.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  3. #53
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    I am sensing a great deal of defensive reaction now, in particular to two phrase choices, meant for dramatic, extreme effect.

    Using such word choices come from generalizations I have seen tossed around here on the forum from time to time ... that SX is "vampiric" and SO "shallow".

    I have graciously thrown in disclaimers and apologies for the use of stereotypes, but that's all that seems to garnering attention now.

    But I would like to reiterate that my intention is NOT to offend, only understand.

    -----

    More questions:

    Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?

    As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?

    What kind of explicit/implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully. Myself, I tend to want to know lots about the other person first, then am eager for my turn to share. Like a little dance of sorts. Sometimes, I feel like I never get "my turn". If I don't get asked, I feel it's kind of ... self-centered to just talk about myself. There's probably some social conditioning wrapped up in that too.

    Do you think SX is more about understanding, or more about being understood?
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #54
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    ^ I didn't point that comment at you Jennifer, and I feel I have already explained my dramatic metaphor and language choices, which to me seem extreme, but through which I am trying to find boundaries.

    Why are you personalizing this instead of trying to clarify it with me? EDIT: Perhaps I need to be more fully clear to say - "Yet that's how much of (generically) the SO stuff reads. I'm not just considering what's in this thread. I assumed that was clear but on a re-read, perhaps not.

    I feel again that you misread my intention. So you do a door-slam, minimize/dismiss the material that offended you by reading in an interpretation or intention that did not exist, then toss a passive-aggressive comment out saying "I'm finished here."

    And I am chasing this, to understand this. I am here and present and being REAL. I am saying things without the typical diplomatic polish I would apply to such conversations.

    So I am being shut off. And being judged, again. Who's truthfully not interested in understanding?

    I do respect and appreciate your exhaustion. Just please don't pin that on me or take it out on me.
    Sigh.
    You're not reading me right. Step back.
    This is why I stepped back for a bit... because I'm apparently not reading you right.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #55
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am sensing a great deal of defensive reaction now, in particular to two phrase choices, meant for dramatic, extreme effect.

    Using such word choices come from generalizations I have seen tossed around here on the forum from time to time ... that SX is "vampiric" and SO "shallow".

    I have graciously thrown in disclaimers and apologies for the use of stereotypes, but that's all that seems to garnering attention now.

    But I would like to say my intention is NOT to offend, only understand.
    Again, not in defensive mode. Just trying to help you understand. That's it.

    -----

    More questions:

    Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?
    I usually only want to go to the "feeling realm" with a romantic partner. With a stranger or someone new, I can handle it OK if they go there, but I may not have enough time to really "tend" to those feelings if I won't be seeing the person much in the future. Feelings are something I need to work at over time. Not just over dinner one night.

    With a romantic partner, I definitely want them to be able to share those things with me, but I feel like the amount of "help" I can offer in that area is probably somewhat limited. NT's like logic and we like to keep things "clear", and the deeper you go into the feeling realm it can get pretty "fuzzy". The further into "feeling" that you go, the more "messy" it gets (for lack of a better word). I see things that are logical as being neat, tidy, and manageable. Things that aren't logical are more difficult for me to wrap my brain around - they aren't neat, tidy, and sometimes they aren't something I know how to manage. So, I'm open to the other person sharing their feelings if they want, I just may not understand them in the way they expect me to. I may not "get it" the way an NF would.


    As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?
    To me, yes. It's not that it's too much work, it's just a feeling of "how long is this really going to continue?" You say you will open up eventually - once you trust me or whatever - but, that shows me that you yourself have thrown up a roadblock to openness and intimacy (not sexual). I'm ready to be open and intimate whenever you are, but if I see that you have a roadblock up, it makes me back up. It makes me think, "if they are throwing up a roadblock, then apparently they think roadblocks are necessary in this relationship. So, logically, I should go ahead and put up a roadblock too." I can't really be "sx" with you, if you have a roadblock. Because I'll keep running into that wall. And I'll feel like you're hiding something, or that I can't trust you because you're not an open book. I'm willing to be patient, but I've got to see some sign of progress. Real, concrete progress. If 6 months goes by and I'm still the only one opening up, it's like, "She'll probably never trust me. She'll probably never trust anyone. I'm willing to wait, but how do I know it's ever going to change if I don't see signs of it?

    What kind of implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully.
    I want it to go "step for step". I open up a bit, then you open up a bit. Then I'll open up further, then you open up further. Once I know that I've opened up like 3 levels beyond what you have, I'll stop. Not to play games, it's more subconcious than that. If you can't "come along with me" on the journey of opening up, then it freezes me. I've told ex's in the past that I'm a total open book. I'll share anything with them. I wear it all on my sleeve. There's nothing I will not talk about. But, you've gotta come with me. I had an ISFP ex and got to know an ENFP woman friend *very deeply* (both had Fi, obviously) and they both thought it was crazy how much I was willing to talk about. They both even said something like, "how do you even do that? I wouldn't even know how to do it, but it seems so effortless to you." I just don't see a reason to hold back.

    But, it would always result in me sharing something really personal - or even personal feelings that I had - and then I'd be like, "OK, your turn!" And then they would clam up or "couldn't put it into words" or "needed more time to process" or "can we talk about something else?"

    As these relationship went further, it got to the point to where they would ask a "deep question" (how do I feel about them?, etc. ) and since I knew they wouldn't reciprocate, then I just started saying stuff like, "I'm always the one answering these questions openly and honestly but you never give me anything back. So, you go ahead and answer that question first and then I'll give you my answer." Then they'd start sweating. "Uhh, ohh, errr." I mean, it's cool - I respect it if someone has trouble opening up - we're all different. But, it just makes it harder for me to proceed with my own comfort level. I want you to be just as open as I am with you. That's where the trust starts to develop - and that's why I like to go to that place - so we can develop trust. It feels healthy to me. It feels right. When we aren't being open it feels like:
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  6. #56
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    As a preface, this is really just how it works for me. I've been reading a lot about others' experiences lately and talking with some other Sxs and I've realized I think I'm a bit "out there."

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post

    More questions:

    Would it be a fair generalization to say that SX-dom NT's want to go deep about knowing facts and SX-dom NF's want to go deep knowing feelings? Or is it a combination of the two?
    I don't necessarily know about that. With the people I'm interested in, I'm willing to examine whatever is important to them. However I think the difference might be that perhaps NFs will always examine someone's feelings and details they share as they are part of the person, whereas I don't necessarily do that. It might be projection on my part, but whenever someone describes to me their thoughts or feelings, I tend to examine them as things that are happening to them, not "them." And from such an interaction, I get joy out of the dynamic, the quality of interaction, rather than anything specific about the feelings or thoughts. NFs personalize, NTs depersonalize, relatively automatically and it's just a habit of our minds.

    As an SO-SP, I would meter out personal information about myself, over time, until I felt I could trust you with it. Does that feel like a roadblock to you? Does this "slowness" of divulging come across as too much like work?
    It does to me, sometimes. It's just not comprehensible to me, really. I don't understand that need so much, so it's frustrating to abide by.


    What kind of explicit/implicit permissions do you need to receive in order to share about yourself? Do you share first? See what happens? I would imagine over time even the most exuberant SX would exercise a bit of caution before opening up so fully. Myself, I tend to want to know lots about the other person first, then am eager for my turn to share. Like a little dance of sorts. Sometimes, I feel like I never get "my turn". If I don't get asked, I feel it's kind of ... self-centered to just talk about myself. There's probably some social conditioning wrapped up in that too.
    I was actually talking to Lauren Ashley about this, another Sx/Sp, and I realized that I might be in the minority on this one.

    I usually make details about myself readily available, almost as though I'm casting out a bunch of fishing lines and trying to see if someone will bite. Since I'm so bad at just general interaction it's the only way I can really see if I can have a good connection or not. I can't just start up conversations with people, they're the ones that sort of have to drive if we're ever going to go anywhere.

    I'm not really attached to such details and facts about myself, so there really isn't any fear for me about them being misused. How much does the fisherman fear for the lives of his bait? Same principle applies to me here, though maybe not for others.

    Do you think SX is more about understanding, or more about being understood?
    I don't know. I don't really worry about that. I think it's irrational to expect to be understood when I can barely understand myself. So, when I look for friends or people, I'm really looking for interactions and dynamics that are exciting and fun for me, without barriers or silly blocks.



  7. #57
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    I'm not really attached to such details and facts about myself, so there really isn't any fear for me about them being misused. How much does the fisherman fear for the lives of his bait? Same principle applies to me here, though maybe not for others.
    Interesting. When I'm in a small group, I will also throw things out there (never thought of it as fishing) and see if someone is willing to go a little deeper with me or get into a good discussion about that topic, but I think my "sp" makes sure that I only throw things out that cannot be misused. I'm not going to throw out "really good stuff" right off the bat (I want to see a logical progression - that we're both sharing information with each other). So, at the beginning, I throw out "unimportant stuff" (yet still personal) and see if I get a bite. If I do get a bite, and we go from Level 1 to, say, Level 3 or Level 4, then I'll start to throw out more personal information because I can clearly see that you're coming along with me.

    I have a group of "acquaintances/semi-friends" who think I am a very open book. They say there is a lot of layers to me and that I'm a very complex person and I sometimes share a lot and sometimes I draw back. But, when I'm open, I'm really open. But, even though they think I'm really open, they haven't seen half of my "sx" side. They've only gotten the "I don't care if you know this about me" stuff. So, it's like they think I'm pretty intense but I know inside that there's a whole lot more intensity that they'll probably never see - because they aren't really the types that want to (or aren't willing) go to that place. So, I just don't go there with them.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  8. #58
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ What would a Level 1 "piece of bait" be, for example?

    (For Jock, INTPness and anyone else who's an SX-dom?)
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #59
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    Interesting. When I'm in a small group, I will also throw things out there (never thought of it as fishing) and see if someone is willing to go a little deeper with me or get into a good discussion about that topic, but I think my "sp" makes sure that I only throw things out that cannot be misused. I'm not going to throw out "really good stuff" right off the bat (I want to see a logical progression - that we're both sharing information with each other). So, at the beginning, I throw out "unimportant stuff" (yet still personal) and see if I get a bite. If I do get a bite, and we go from Level 1 to, say, Level 3 or Level 4, then I'll start to throw out more personal information because I can clearly see that you're coming along with me.

    I have a group of "acquaintances/semi-friends" who think I am a very open book. They say there is a lot of layers to me and that I'm a very complex person and I sometimes share a lot and sometimes I draw back. But, when I'm open, I'm really open. But, even though they think I'm really open, they haven't seen half of my "sx" side. They've only gotten the "I don't care if you know this about me" stuff. So, it's like they think I'm pretty intense but I know inside that there's a whole lot more intensity that they'll probably never see - because they aren't really the types that want to (or aren't willing) go to that place. So, I just don't go there with them.
    See, I don't think some facts about myself are ways to hurt me. I can't really be made fun of. But I can be made a fool of. That is what can hurt me. You can lie to me, cheat on me, or take advantage of me and hurt me, so my secondary sp instinct is primarily concerned with protecting that aspect of myself, but I don't know if there's a "personal detail" like that in my entire life that will allow you to do that to me. So I find I can't really relate to that kind of parceling out information and "levels" of bait.



  10. #60
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    To PeaceBaby: Ha ha. Good question. Let me think. OK, let's say that someone says something about being nervous speaking in a public setting. They were extremely nervous to give a speech. I might say something like, "I can relate to that. I supposedly have social anxiety disorder and so it was always a huge struggle for me to do things like that, but I've really come a long way by doing, A, B, and C. It's been an interesting journey, but believe me, it's something that you can get better and more comfortable at. I just gave a speech in front of almost 100 people the other day, and it was a big step, but it was very empowering. So, be encouraged that you can do it!"

    I'll say it (a) to encourage them, and (b) I'm throwing something out there about myself. There are a lot of people who think that's something personal. I have an ESFJ family member, for example, who tells me that I should never give this information out - about social anxiety disorder. I think she thinks that it "makes a person look weak" or whatever. I have absolutely no problem sharing this with someone if I think it can help them overcome something. None at all. And I don't think it makes me look weak. And, frankly, I don't care if they think it does. My intention was to help.

    So, in "throwing" that Level 1 thing out there, maybe nobody "bites" and the conversation just keeps going and then we all leave and go home. Nothing comes of it. But, once in a while, when I do something like that, there might be 1 person in the group that is "sx" and they might come up to me as we are leaving and say something like, "Thanks for sharing that. That really helped me a lot. Would you mind telling me more about that?" And we may end up talking right there for like 30 minutes - intense conversation. Or, maybe we'll exchange phone numbers and talk later. It's as if what I revealed about myself gave them the impression that I was easy to talk to - and so they feel comfortable opening up to me and it snowballs from there to deeper, more interesting things.
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

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