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  1. #41
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    To PeaceBaby:

    Some points regarding your response:

    -The fact that you say there is so much to digest in this thread speaks to the intensity of the sx's in this thread. We have a lot to say and when given the opportunity, we usually express things openly and in-depth.

    -You mentioned that we like to delve into other people's "stuff" - as if it's a one way street. I like the intensity to be mutual. Some sx's may not, but I like when someone asks me the same kind of questions. In fact, if it was just me asking and talking, it would get old. It's not a 1-way street - us getting all we can from you and then leaving. We want it reciprocated. Then there's the feeling that we're both enjoying it to the same degree.

    -You talked about the potential overlap between the sx desire for intensity and closeness with basic human intimacy needs. I agree with this, but I would venture to say that the sx desire is MUCH more intense than the average person - sometimes even to the point to where we avoid the small talk altogether. We don't want anything to do with it at times. Jennifer seems to be past that point in her maturation (she welcomes the small talk), and I'm "working on it". I used to attend a social group where we talked about the really good stuff - that was the focus of the group. But, after the "formal" part of the group was over, the conversation became more about "surface stuff" - and then I just wanted to leave. I ONLY wanted the good stuff. I wanted nothing to do with the rest of it. There can be a sort of fixation on only wanting the deep conversations. I've learned to consciously say to myself, "Wait a minute! Stay here and talk to these people. Be social! It's good for you, it's valuable to your social skills and to your network - you can't just be a hermit who comes out to play when it's "deep stuff". Even if you don't have a lot of fun, stick it out for an hour and talk to these people." Sometimes I end up enjoying it a little bit, other times not so much. The sx's natural inclination, however, is that if we are a magnet, the deep stuff is metal. We crave it.

    -In regards to this:
    Social types adapt themselves to serve the needs of the social situation they find themselves in. Thus, Social types are highly aware of other people, whether they are in intimate situations or in groups. They are also aware of how their actions and attitudes are affecting those around them. Moreover, Sexual types seek intimacy, Social types seek personal connection: they want to stay in long-term contact with people and to be involved in their world. Social types are the most concerned with doing things that will have some impact on their community, or even broader domains. They tend to be warmer, more open, engaging, and socially responsible than the other two types.
    To a large degree, this is where the difference lays between "so" and "sx". I relate *a little bit* to the description (my inferior Fe wants to keep things "smooth" in my own social circle), but as an overall description, it doesn't fit with me. I don't know if all sx's are this way, but I know INTP's tend to be iconoclasts. We usually go "against the grain". I know an INTP who people say about him "if you invite him to an event, he won't show up. If you don't invite him, he sometimes will show up." I, for one, do not like to be put into a "box". If someone puts expectations on me that I think are not warranted (or that I'm not ready for), then I might subconciously break out of that mold and do something else. I can be warm, open, and engaging, but that usually happens when I'm 1-on-1 with someone (an "sx" type situation). In a large group or party, I'm more detached and obervant. In big groups, I'm more "sp". 1-on-1, I'm "sx". But, for the most part, you won't see me fit the above "so" description.

    -Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single. I've really struggled with "so" friends and girlfriends. The description I quoted above - I couldn't satisfy that need for them to have me (the person they cared about) be a big part of their social circle. I didn't want to hang out with their social circle. I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most), and they know that I'll be there for them at the end of the day. Don't read this to mean that I'm not interested in what they do or that I'm not fully committed. I most certainly am - I would even say that I'm committed and interested in a "very intense way". Perhaps more than most people would be. I just don't always want to be a part of that social circle. I'm friendly, I'm cordial, and I want to please, but I can't keep up some facade and pretend that I want to be at every event that you and your friends take part in. It's just not me. And that's where we had problems - that was hard for them to accept. They thought that if I truly loved them that I would go with them to all these events. To me, they were trying to change who I am. Why do I have to "prove" my love by being someone I'm not? Why can't you go to YOUR social events and still know that I love you just the same? Needless to say, it's a difficult situation!
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  2. #42
    Rainy Day Woman MDP2525's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runvardh View Post
    I wonder what keeps me around, though... I'll get the high, I'll need recovery time, but I also want to come back for more, and it's not just sex when it comes to this reaction. I find when it feels good I want it more and often associate that person with the good feeling than the action that took place. This may be a result of different numbers though...
    I've experienced this too. Only happens with other sx/sp's IME. Never works though. Or the cooling off periods each needs are not in synch with each other causing mistrust to take over? *shrug*
    ~luck favors the ready~


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  3. #43
    にゃん runvardh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MDP2525 View Post
    I've experienced this too. Only happens with other sx/sp's IME. Never works though. The cooling off period allows a lot of doubt to seep in.
    I wonder if that's why they're always disappearing on me after a month or two...
    Dreams are best served manifest and tangible.

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  4. #44
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single.
    I think relationships go through phases and maybe people are good at one part of the relationship and not the others... but have to learn how in order to endure. We just have to be more well-rounded in approach to maintain something like that.

    I learned a great deal from being married to an ISFJ who wasn't SX. I didn't really want to learn.... but I did want the marriage to work, so I tried to learn.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  5. #45
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Thanks to all who have contributed thus far; I welcome more input.

    Thank you INTPness for these responses; my thoughts below:

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    -The fact that you say there is so much to digest in this thread speaks to the intensity of the sx's in this thread. We have a lot to say and when given the opportunity, we usually express things openly and in-depth.
    I appreciate that; I would say I can discuss things in depth but I am not always open about me personally.

    -You mentioned that we like to delve into other people's "stuff" - as if it's a one way street. I like the intensity to be mutual.
    Thanks for the clarification; I do sense that need for reciprocation. Sometimes the way people express this though comes across quite one-sided: "I want that, I want this" ... when I (as an so-dom) sense how much you want it, it almost becomes an immediate turn-off to me. It feels like I am an object of desire, rather than being desired.

    When two sx's really connect, it must be like instant fireworks though!

    - Jennifer seems to be past that point in her maturation (she welcomes the small talk), and I'm "working on it".
    I have never been a fan of small-talk; it has always seemed vacuous to me. But, I do understand the purpose, I can engage in it, and it is more like a tool I can use to get to know people more deeply.

    I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most).
    This is where it gets interesting too, to me - I am an introverted so-dom. I am no social butterfly - I don't have huge needs in this area, but I feel like I have very well-developed social skills. I suppose this is an aspect I feel misunderstood within. I network with people to find and create connections. I don't have a wide circle or place the importance of the group above my inner circle. I do know a lot of people; could interact in most any group as needed - but people are an energy-out equation, so I always need that recharge and people don't give me that energy-buzz like an extroverted so-dom might receive.

    -----

    This is all very illuminative and I am still processing. And again, allow me to reiterate I am being a bit unvarnished for the sake of cultivating more response. If my phrasing is or has been offensive in any way I apologize for that. Understanding is my only intent here.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
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    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  6. #46
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Is sx just about the hit, the high? That's the part I don't want to give you because I feel like I'll give over and then you'll be gone. Very similar to a sexual one-night stand metaphor. I don't like the sense of being "used" and I feel like if you liked me enough to have sex with me and be intimate with me what is it that makes you leave me?
    I resent being compared to someone out looking for a one-night-stand or a drug-hit. You realize that you are accusing SXs of the same shallowness that you rankled against on behalf of SOs?

    I think fundamentally, the difference between instinctual variants is about comfort levels. Some people are clearly very protective of their inner worlds, others are happy, anxious even, to share them.

    Some people are comfortable sharing their body with a stranger. I'm really not, and I can't begin to understand that way of being - though I wouldn't judge someone for it. But I can quite happily share deeply personal things or ideas with a stranger, if I get the feeling that we are attuned. Sometimes more easily than with a long-term acquaintance, because there is no relational "clutter" in the way. The connection is pure and about the moment. I don't feel I've given anything away in the process. I've enlarged it - by sending it out into the world. It has become more real in the sharing. But why does this mean we have a "relationship"? We don't. We shared a moment. Maybe there will be other moments, maybe not. There is no exploitation involved and no expectations. There is give and take. To me, laying expectations of permanence on that person is ridiculous and needy.
    I think if everyone was able to connect in this way the world would be a better, richer and much less lonely place - but part of the reason people don't is because of these absurd expectations about what is "appropriate" at each stage of a relationship. Fuck that. Smash through the barriers. Find your own comfort level.

    One needs to respect that many people will just never, never go there with you.

    Why does an sx-dom think anyone should? What have you done to "earn" that level of intimacy?
    I don't know where you are reading this sense of entitlement from. I certainly don't want anyone to do anything they're not happy to do. Like I said, that's why I gave up trying in the first place and just accepted that I was an oddity. I constantly make concessions for how boring other people are, but very few make concessions for me. That's the usual SX experience. Most people seem to get their need for connection met by fairly mundane means. Our needs are seldom met at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    INTP's tend to be iconoclasts. We usually go "against the grain". I know an INTP who people say about him "if you invite him to an event, he won't show up. If you don't invite him, he sometimes will show up." I, for one, do not like to be put into a "box". If someone puts expectations on me that I think are not warranted (or that I'm not ready for), then I might subconciously break out of that mold and do something else. I can be warm, open, and engaging, but that usually happens when I'm 1-on-1 with someone (an "sx" type situation). In a large group or party, I'm more detached and obervant. In big groups, I'm more "sp". 1-on-1, I'm "sx". But, for the most part, you won't see me fit the above "so" description.

    -Lastly, you say that the "intensity" is part of the honeymoon phase and it can't last forever. This is partly true. With 2 sx's, there is a desire to continue to grow and discover things in a deep way. But, you are right that once you tap into what they are all about, there becomes less and less to talk about. And that, I'm afraid, is the reason why a lot of sx's are single. Not all of them are - I don't want to make huge generalizations here - but, I think a big chunk of sx's are single. I've really struggled with "so" friends and girlfriends. The description I quoted above - I couldn't satisfy that need for them to have me (the person they cared about) be a big part of their social circle. I didn't want to hang out with their social circle. I'm not a social butterfly like that. I'd rather do something together - just the 2 of us. But, I do need my alone time, so I always encourage them to go be with their friends as much as possible (I NEVER hold them back, I push them out so that they can "stay happy" doing what they enjoy most), and they know that I'll be there for them at the end of the day. Don't read this to mean that I'm not interested in what they do or that I'm not fully committed. I most certainly am - I would even say that I'm committed and interested in a "very intense way". Perhaps more than most people would be. I just don't always want to be a part of that social circle. I'm friendly, I'm cordial, and I want to please, but I can't keep up some facade and pretend that I want to be at every event that you and your friends take part in. It's just not me. And that's where we had problems - that was hard for them to accept. They thought that if I truly loved them that I would go with them to all these events. To me, they were trying to change who I am. Why do I have to "prove" my love by being someone I'm not? Why can't you go to YOUR social events and still know that I love you just the same? Needless to say, it's a difficult situation!
    Yes to all of this.
    It sucks that we accept and support the needs of others that are alien to us, yet they continue to assess our needs and mode of expression as in some way deficient.

    /intp whining

    ETA. I'll give you an example of an so-sx relationship and you tell me who is exploiting whom. I have a neighbour I've tentatively typed as ESFJ, almost certainly an so/sp type 2. She's a pleasant person, a teacher, not unintelligent, but she bores the pants off me. Whenever I'm out she'll trap me and go on for an hour about stuff that quite clearly doesn't concern me. Gossip about the neighbours, stuff about her church. It's actually physically painful for me to listen to it - but I do. I'd much rather talk to her husband - he's an introvert, does the same type of work as I do and he's into gardening and DIY like me so we actually have some common ground. But I don't, unless he initiates it, because I know how possessive that type of woman can be about her man and I don't need the aggravation.
    So far, so crap. This last week she's been on holiday and asked me to look after her house/cat. I'm happy to help people where I can, and I'm even happier to be able to go into the front garden and not have her pester me, so I agree to do so. No biggie. She bought me a bottle of wine for my troubles. I'd quite like to leave it at that. But now she has insisted that I go over this afternoon to hear about her holiday. I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOUR HOLIDAY. I've turned down her invitations several times in the past so I don't feel I can this time. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to be bored and counting the minutes till enough time has past so that I can leave without hurting feelings. I'm going to be opening myself up to all sorts of other invitations I don't want. The worst thing is - she actually thinks she's doing me a favour. She feels sorry for me living on my own. She projects her own loneliness and emptiness onto me. She wants to get me involved in the "community". She doesn't see "me" at all. She's incapable of it so I won't even try to make a connection. The worst thing about this type is their complete inability to see anything from anyone else's perspective. I get nothing out of this arrangement 'cept a cheap bottle of Shiraz that I probably won't drink.
    This is why I hate people.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
    Gosh, the world looks so small from up here on my high horse of menstruation.

  7. #47
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    I'm not really sure why there is a comparison to a one-night stand.

    I don't sleep around, I don't cross boundaries, I don't expect or demand things people haven't offered to give, and I don't make false promises. Connecting with someone is connecting with someone, I'm not marrying them. That's something else entirely, some other sort of explicit negotiation.

    If people can't deal or don't want to go there because they've got a different comfort level, then fine.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #48
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    I resent being compared to someone out looking for a one-night-stand or a drug-hit. You realize that you are accusing SXs of the same shallowness that you rankled against on behalf of SOs?
    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    I'm not really sure why there is a comparison to a one-night stand.
    I am just using examples to the extreme to see where the edges are.

    As I said above: "And again, allow me to reiterate I am being a bit unvarnished for the sake of cultivating more response. If my phrasing is or has been offensive in any way I apologize for that. Understanding is my only intent here."

    But, why is there this sense that sx is the "deepest"? I see this very urgent and compelling need to experience deep intimacy with other people, but why is that somehow equated with depth of character?

    I am not some vacuous valley-girl just interested in like, you know, how popular I am this week. I don't think anyone I know would say I am shallow or a social butterfly. Yet that's how much of the SO stuff reads. I suppose that's the part I feel resistance to.

    I think fundamentally, the difference between instinctual variants is about comfort levels. Some people are clearly very protective of their inner worlds, others are happy, anxious even, to share them.
    I think that's well-expressed.

    I constantly make concessions for how boring other people are, but very few make concessions for me. That's the usual SX experience. Most people seem to get their need for connection met by fairly mundane means. Our needs are seldom met at all.
    I'm not sure how to respond to this. I find many people pretty shallow and boring most of the time too ... but I don't expect them to make concessions for me, and I especially understand it at this point in my life. They can't give me what they don't have.

    It sucks that we accept and support the needs of others that are alien to us, yet they continue to assess our needs and mode of expression as in some way deficient.
    Deficient ... I don't think I would use that word, but I am still sorting this through in my own mind so I am not confident of a replacement yet.

    ETA. I'll give you an example of an so-sx relationship and you tell me who is exploiting whom. I have a neighbour I've tentatively typed as ESFJ, almost certainly an so/sp type 2. ... This last week she's been on holiday and asked me to look after her house/cat. I'm happy to help people where I can, and I'm even happier to be able to go into the front garden and not have her pester me, so I agree to do so. No biggie. She bought me a bottle of wine for my troubles. I'd quite like to leave it at that. But now she has insisted that I go over this afternoon to hear about her holiday. I DON'T FUCKING CARE ABOUT YOUR HOLIDAY. I've turned down her invitations several times in the past so I don't feel I can this time. I'm going to hate it. I'm going to be bored and counting the minutes till enough time has past so that I can leave without hurting feelings. I'm going to be opening myself up to all sorts of other invitations I don't want. The worst thing is - she actually thinks she's doing me a favour. She feels sorry for me living on my own. She projects her own loneliness and emptiness onto me. She wants to get me involved in the "community". She doesn't see "me" at all. She's incapable of it so I won't even try to make a connection.
    I would find this scenario equally painful and I am an SO-dom ... the primary difference between us is that I "understand" (for lack of a better word) why she expresses in this way and I also "understand" that little else will come of our interactions.

    Or, maybe for just half an hour, get out of your own head, don't count the minutes, and just get into the story? Maybe it will be more interesting than you think. I can dread interacting in this way too, so when necessary I just give over to it, accept it, and sometimes it is pretty refreshing to stop contemplating how much agony I am in sitting there. I guess I just accept it? But I would devise a bunch of strategies to minimize our future interactions while still remaining on "good" terms.

    And - this does seem more than so-sx to me. First, she's an ESFJ - that says much more to me right there than looking at the so-sx dynamic. And you say enneagram type 2 - the Helper. Well, she is trying to "help" in her way ... I'm not saying it's right, and it's sure not right for you, but most people are not so evolved that they can put themselves into someone else's shoes and understand these differing needs.

    At any rate I deeply appreciate your contributions to the thread Morgan.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  9. #49
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    i think this thread also involved reading into so a lot of esfj and esfp characteristics that are particularly irrelevant to the life of an inxx e5.

    and i don't see why the one-night stand analogy is so bad. although the reason we don't call is that we are often introverts who need a lot of recharge time in addition to e5 boundary issues and feeling overwhelmed by the demands, at the level of the will, of others. our intense interest is difficult to read for others, especially when it dissipates with the sobering morning.

    others do focus more on building support networks for themselves. that are mutual and beneficial for both parties. i do that a tiny bit but usually it's more so that i have figured out that's something desirable for me in a tangible here now way. generally this involves learning something, bc that's a big part of what's important and enjoyable to me and is how i live my life.

    jennifer has pointed out in another thread that we need to have a sense of the boundaries of others in order to grant them their deserved privacy at times, and for us to gauge our own actions and see what they mean to others, how they would be interpreted and how they'd be perceived. bc while we're bitching about so types sometimes (somewhat unfairly), plenty of sp types are bitching about how we invaded and then just swept on thru to another territory without taking into account any consideration for them.

  10. #50
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by the state i am in View Post
    and i don't see why the one-night stand analogy is so bad.
    A one night stand where people agree ahead of time it is not a one-night stand is not bad.

    I think we're mostly discussing assumptions -- you meet someone, you have sex... Should you be assuming that, without any prior commitment, suddenly you have one in place because you had sex? That seems a little naive. But sensitive people, even if they don't have a commitment in place, usually try to not just do the "ditch and run" thing. There are multiple ways a temporary congress can be handled that can leave one either feeling used or at least an equitable partner in the decision to become intimate.

    But really, the term "one-night stand" is not typically used in the positive sense. To toss it out there especially after all the nuanced content in this thread is needlessly incedinary, IMO.

    I also at this point can't tell what is my personal behavior vs generalized behavior for an entire group of people, so I think I'm basically finished....

    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    I am not some vacuous valley-girl just interested in like, you know, how popular I am this week. I don't think anyone I know would say I am shallow or a social butterfly. Yet that's how much of the SO stuff reads. I suppose that's the part I feel resistance to.
    This is why I'm finished.

    I don't have any intention of making it seem that way, but I don't seem to be able to find a recourse that doesn't result in you feeling that way... and since making you feel that way was never my intention, it just seems imprudent for me to discuss it further right now.

    (I'm also completely exhausted in general for lots of reasons and have no more energy for this particular conversation. Looks like a few of the other members have more to say though... so the conversation can continue.)
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

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