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  1. #21
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by themarlins View Post
    Well the major misread is that soc/sp move to sx when starting a relationship

    sx/sp moves to soc when starting a relationship


    only temporarily.


    So they can look like each other for awhile, and then end up disappointed when the true self comes out.
    THIS interests me ... go deeper. I want to hear more about this.

    Because it seems ridiculous to me to suggest that so/sp or sp/so does NOT want to go deep. I know what that buzz feels like, meeting someone new with that click in place, to want to know tons about them and get to share about me too.

    To suggest that "so" is a "stay superficial" orientation is kind of insulting, really.

    There's a lot more for me to digest and discuss from the other posts here and thank you everyone for sharing. I need a little more time to process.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  2. #22
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    Because it seems ridiculous to me to suggest that so/sp or sp/so does NOT want to go deep. I know what that buzz feels like, meeting someone new with that click in place, to want to know tons about them and get to share about me too.

    To suggest that "so" is a "stay superficial" orientation is kind of insulting, really.
    Well, I know that's not what I meant.

    Looking forward to seeing how you describe things from your end and seeing if we can figure out together what the distinctions actually would be among variants, in practice.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  3. #23
    reborn PeaceBaby's Avatar
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    ^ I am generalizing from this thread and a bunch of ongoing enneagram threads really ... just amalgamating an impression. I need a little time to do this justice.
    "Remember always that you not only have the right to be an individual, you have an obligation to be one."
    Eleanor Roosevelt


    "When people see some things as beautiful,
    other things become ugly.
    When people see some things as good,
    other things become bad."
    Lao Tzu, Tao Te Ching

  4. #24
    Senior Member Rebe's Avatar
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    PeaceBaby: You see, I am so/sp and I feel the tug-of-war between working with the group and preserving my own "space" ... and frequently, when someone wants to get close to me fast I become very wary of their motivations. With sx last in my stacking order, I find I feel the desire for connection, but find myself thinking other people are being socially inappropriate when they move fast, and then I feel my defenses go up to protect myself from either being hurt or embarrassed.

    In relationships I seldom share info about myself first unless I feel very safe because I don't think anyone is interested if they don't ask or take the time to get to me on at least a cursory level. And I don't want to come across as unduly self-absorbed. It's polite to get to know the other person first, so I generally try to follow that "rule".

    I want depth, but I fear it, because I think someone will "take" something from me and then never maintain that friendship over time.
    Words right out of my mouth. This is very interesting.

  5. #25
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    in my experience i've only had the intense mindmate connection with other sx types. entps of all varieties, enfp 7w6 sx/so, and intp 5w4 sx. i've had good connections with nfps of all types, but not the same mindmate connection. i've never met an intj 5w4 sx.

  6. #26
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PeaceBaby View Post
    To suggest that "so" is a "stay superficial" orientation is kind of insulting, really.
    I can see how a part of my post might have implied that and for that I apologize. It probably sounded "superficial" of me to come off that way. What I was trying to point out was that there is such a deep, innate desire for the "sx" person to go deep that when it stops, slows down, or suddenly comes to a halt, it's disappointing to me that it has to end.

    There's usually a point in every friendship where I realize that I'm not going to be able to go any deeper than I already have. I've gotten as deep as I'm going to get and it just won't go deeper than that. I experience this even with my own family. They just don't really have much of a desire to talk about the stuff I want to talk about. It's not interesting for them to "go deep", like it is for me. I thrive on it. They think it's strange/too intense/not practical.

    But, when you realize you've reached your limit (as far as how deep you'll be able to go), this is usually the point in the friendship where the dialogue sort of shifts from "the deep stuff" to "other stuff". There becomes less of a focus on continuing to go deep and get to know each other and more of a focus on the every day common stuff. And that's OK - that's important stuff in a friendship too. It's just that I think a lot of sx's would rather talk more about the former and less about the latter.

    I shouldn't have used the word "superficial". It's just a difference in what types of things people want to talk about. A lot of my family likes to talk about "how hot it has been" or "what they did yesterday" or "how the computer has been acting up", "the dog has been sick", "the neighbor got a new car", stuff like that. I don't mean to imply that this is "superficial" stuff. Wrong on my part. As an sx, I have a tendency (probably unhealthy) to group all of that stuff as "uninteresting" and "superficial". I love my family and wouldn't trade 'em for anything, but to an sx who wants to "go deep" as much as possible, this kind of conversation can make us go: :steam:
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  7. #27
    @.~*virinaĉo*~.@ Totenkindly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    I can see how a part of my post might have implied that and for that I apologize. It probably sounded "superficial" of me to come off that way. What I was trying to point out was that there is such a deep, innate desire for the "sx" person to go deep that when it stops, slows down, or suddenly comes to a halt, it's disappointing to me that it has to end. There's usually a point in every friendship where I realize that I'm not going to be able to go any deeper than I already have. I've gotten as deep as I'm going to get and it just won't go deeper than that.
    It's a loss, really. As much as turning the last page of a book you love and realizing that's it... or the last moment of a show, where you know that the people you cared about and whose lives you watched unfold are never going to be known to you as they are right that second. And people -- tangible people you're connected to directly -- are even more real and palpable.

    So grief gets triggered if and when that point gets reached.

    (I should note that books and shows might sound "trivial" because the people aren't "real" and it might sound odd to compare it to actual people... but I take both griefs just as hard. They're blows to the heart.)

    I experience this even with my own family. They just don't really have much of a desire to talk about the stuff I want to talk about. It's not interesting for them to "go deep", like it is for me. I thrive on it. They think it's strange/too intense/not practical.
    Yeah, I know what you mean. I reached a point years ago where I realized my family would never come any further in. Not only did they not really want to, they didn't even see there was a way leading further in and further down.

    I had to sort of figure out what to do at that point, to keep the relationship intact.

    [quote]But, when you realize you've reached your limit (as far as how deep you'll be able to go), this is usually the point in the friendship where the dialogue sort of shifts from "the deep stuff" to "other stuff". There becomes less of a focus on continuing to go deep and get to know each other and more of a focus on the every day common stuff. And that's OK - that's important stuff in a friendship too. It's just that I think a lot of sx's would rather talk more about the former and less about the latter.

    It's just a difference in what types of things people want to talk about. A lot of my family likes to talk about "how hot it has been" or "what they did yesterday" or "how the computer has been acting up", "the dog has been sick", "the neighbor got a new car", stuff like that. I don't mean to imply that this is "superficial" stuff. Wrong on my part. As an sx, I have a tendency (probably unhealthy) to group all of that stuff as "uninteresting" and "superficial". I love my family and wouldn't trade 'em for anything, but to an sx who wants to "go deep" as much as possible, this kind of conversation can make us go: :steam:
    Originally, I had no use for that sort of conversation either -- but I wasn't living independently from my parents, I could afford to live abstractly, etc. It was after I was married, with kids, trying to build my own life, and also wondering why I was lonely and couldn't connect with people that I came around to realizing that stuff was actually useful, necessary, and filled in the gaps between my need for "deep stuff."

    I actually sort of enjoy it nowadays. To do the intense personal stuff can be draining and also create expectations for commitment that as a human being with limited resources and prior commitments I just cannot handle; at least I can build a familiarity with someone else (maybe even setting the stage for deeper conversation later) by engaging in pleasantries and daily life/world trivia. It's just a different way to connect, I just can't "live there" like my mom and some other people I know who can.

    I guess I'll end this by stating not all of this is necessarily SX-related. That's what we're here discussing -- to find points of similarity that might cross all human experience and to isolate anything (or degrees of something) that might be more particularly to a variant.
    "Hey Capa -- We're only stardust." ~ "Sunshine"

    “Pleasure to me is wonder—the unexplored, the unexpected, the thing that is hidden and the changeless thing that lurks behind superficial mutability. To trace the remote in the immediate; the eternal in the ephemeral; the past in the present; the infinite in the finite; these are to me the springs of delight and beauty.” ~ H.P. Lovecraft

  8. #28
    meh Salomé's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Romance wasn't really a part of what I was describing
    Nor I. I don't see mindmate connections as romantic, necessarily.

    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post
    They just don't really have much of a desire to talk about the stuff I want to talk about. It's not interesting for them to "go deep", like it is for me. I thrive on it. They think it's strange/too intense/not practical.
    You talked about the sort of things you'd classify as superficial, can you talk more about what you mean by "going deep"?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer
    Originally, I had no use for that sort of conversation either -- but I wasn't living independently from my parents, I could afford to live abstractly, etc. It was after I was married, with kids, trying to build my own life, and also wondering why I was lonely and couldn't connect with people that I came around to realizing that stuff was actually useful, necessary, and filled in the gaps between my need for "deep stuff."

    I actually sort of enjoy it nowadays. To do the intense personal stuff can be draining and also create expectations for commitment that as a human being with limited resources and prior commitments I just cannot handle; at least I can build a familiarity with someone else (maybe even setting the stage for deeper conversation later) by engaging in pleasantries and daily life/world trivia. It's just a different way to connect, I just can't "live there" like my mom and some other people I know who can.
    The opposite is true for me. Connecting with someone on a deep level is refreshing and energizing, I never feel that introverted need to withdraw. It's the superficial stuff that I find draining. Also alienating, because I cannot comprehend why anyone would be interested in it, so it builds a gulf between myself and the other person, rather than bridging one. Sometimes I'll get irritable and ask them why they think any of that would interest me, or ask them to get to the point, but most often I will just listen out of politeness; meanwhile my brain switches off and I can feel my eyes glazing over. I just zone out and entertain myself while occasionally nodding and smiling and uttering vague "Ahs" and "mmms". To that extent I find it depersonalizing. And because I am making such an effort at giving attention and getting nothing in return (in terms of mental stimulation) it is exhausting and dispiriting.

    As a child, I thought maybe everyone did this - just tolerated the nonsense that everyone else spoke about, out of politeness - that maybe everyone was secretly yearning for release from the tyranny of social niceties and wanted to be able to be more "real" and free with each other, as I saw it. But that was just projection. I found people frustrated, even frightened by the depth I wanted to pursue, by my habit of turning all their certainties upside down, digging at the roots of their being. So I just shut up about my interests, and nodded and smiled, and quietly died inside. I think this accounts for a lot of the negative stereotypes about introverted intuitives. We aren't closed off by nature so much as by the nurture of a brutalizing environment full of people who seem like zombies to us... and we to them.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ivy View Post
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  9. #29
    Senior Member INTPness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Morgan Le Fay View Post
    The opposite is true for me. Connecting with someone on a deep level is refreshing and energizing, I never feel that introverted need to withdraw. It's the superficial stuff that I find draining. Also alienating, because I cannot comprehend why anyone would be interested in it, so it builds a gulf between myself and the other person, rather than bridging one. Sometimes I'll get irritable and ask them why they think any of that would interest me, or ask them to get to the point, but most often I will just listen out of politeness; meanwhile my brain switches off and I can feel my eyes glazing over. I just zone out and entertain myself while occasionally nodding and smiling and uttering vague "Ahs" and "mmms". To that extent I find it depersonalizing. And because I am making such an effort at giving attention and getting nothing in return (in terms of mental stimulation) it is exhausting and dispiriting.

    As a child, I thought maybe everyone did this - just tolerated the nonsense that everyone else spoke about, out of politeness - that maybe everyone was secretly yearning for release from the tyranny of social niceties and wanted to be able to be more "real" and free with each other, as I saw it. But that was just projection. I found people frustrated, even frightened by the depth I wanted to pursue, by my habit of turning all their certainties upside down, digging at the roots of their being. So I just shut up about my interests, and nodded and smiled, and quietly died inside. I think this accounts for a lot of the negative stereotypes about introverted intuitives. We aren't closed off by nature so much as by the nurture of a brutalizing environment full of people who seem like zombies to us... and we to them.
    This has been my experience as well.

    You talked about the sort of things you'd classify as superficial, can you talk more about what you mean by "going deep"?
    Well, each person is (or has the capability of being) such a deep, vast *thing* to be explored - so it's hard to put into words. You touched on it yourself a bit in your post above ("digging at the roots of their being" = finding out what makes them tick, etc.). It's like a place where the conversation, and what you may find/discover, are limitless. That's why it's so energizing because you're exploring new territory. And it requires the other person to allow you to explore. You know when walls are up and when your exploring is making them a bit uncomfortable.

    But, I'm sure most "sx's" know what I'm trying to describe. It feels very natural to us to sit down with someone and have no regard for time: to just throw ideas around freely, "what do you think about this?", "what would you do in this situation?", "have you ever thought about X?", "what happened in your past and what did you learn from it? how did it make you a better/stronger person?", "what are your dreams in life?", "what are you passionate about?", "what moves you?", "what energizes you?", "when are you happiest?", and uh, "are you as into me as I am to you?" (just kidding - just wanted to throw that in there).

    Stuff like that I guess. Open ended questions. Questions that have no definite answer, that make people think, that cut right to the important stuff, that require them to "clean out their own closet" in order to give an honest answer. That's my feeble attempt to put it into words. Does that resonate at all?
    NTJ's are the only types that have ever made me feel emo.
    ENP's are the only types that have ever made me feel like a sensor.


    There are two great days in a person's life - the day we are born and the day we discover why. --William Barclay

  10. #30
    Emerging Tallulah's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INTPness View Post

    But, I'm sure most "sx's" know what I'm trying to describe. It feels very natural to us to sit down with someone and have no regard for time: to just throw ideas around freely, "what do you think about this?", "what would you do in this situation?", "have you ever thought about X?", "what happened in your past and what did you learn from it? how did it make you a better/stronger person?", "what are your dreams in life?", "what are you passionate about?", "what moves you?", "what energizes you?", "when are you happiest?", and uh, "are you as into me as I am to you?" (just kidding - just wanted to throw that in there).

    Stuff like that I guess. Open ended questions. Questions that have no definite answer, that make people think, that cut right to the important stuff, that require them to "clean out their own closet" in order to give an honest answer. That's my feeble attempt to put it into words. Does that resonate at all?
    Now, see, questions like that are things that I don't necessarily mind a friend knowing the answers to, but I have no idea how to answer them. If it comes up organically when you're talking about yourself or someone/something else, I may volunteer the information, but being asked the questions makes me feel a little put on the spot, like I'm at a job interview.

    I'm not a huge fan of small talk, but as Jennifer says, I've learned to use it to work for me. I like going deep with some people, but not the vast majority. Small talk gives me a way to indicate that I am not rejecting them, but keep them at arm's length until I can determine if I'm interested in pursuing something more significant. I also won't talk about personal stuff with people I don't know I can trust.
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