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  1. #71
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Night View Post
    Magic -

    I've taken a smattering of Enneagram tests and always seem to conclude as a 5w8.

    I was speaking with some other folks who stated that, as 8 wasn't a potential analogue to 5, I should consider focusing on my tertiary 6 instead.

    Can you provide some insight?
    I feel that we have to completely re-think these conventions. I no longer feel that there is any reason to doubt the validity of a so-called 5w8. Your primary behavior is to be passive/evasive, but next to that , you prefer Active/Aggressive. Similarly, your primary value of feeling is to be Detached, but that secondarily gives way to being Temperamental.

    So, 5, then 8. That's my assumption anyway. This can't be known for sure until a test was designed uniquely for this theory. My over all point is that you shouldn't feel restricted to focusing on Six or Four. I'm currently working out some theories regarding relations to auxilliary type and supporting type models, but their still in the oven, I'm afraid.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


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    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  2. #72
    Boring old fossil Night's Avatar
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    Ah - thank you, dissonance.

    These are very helpful links.

    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    I feel that we have to completely re-think these conventions. I no longer feel that there is any reason to doubt the validity of a so-called 5w8. Your primary behavior is to be passive/evasive, but next to that , you prefer Active/Aggressive. Similarly, your primary value of feeling is to be Detached, but that secondarily gives way to being Temperamental.

    So, 5, then 8. That's my assumption anyway. This can't be known for sure until a test was designed uniquely for this theory. My over all point is that you shouldn't feel restricted to focusing on Six or Four. I'm currently working out some theories regarding relations to auxilliary type and supporting type models, but their still in the oven, I'm afraid.
    Thank you, Magic.

    My hesitation to simply accept 6 over 8 was to preserve accuracy - a point well defined in your post.

    The 5w8 is significantly closer to my approximate behavior than the 5w6; 5w3 (my next closest scores...).

  3. #73
    darkened dreams labyrinthine's Avatar
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    Type 5 = 12
    Type 2 = 5
    Type 4 = 3
    Type 9 = 3
    Type 3 = 2
    Type 6 = -4
    Type 7 = -4
    Type 8 = -4
    Type 1 = -13

    Type
    5 80%
    9 70%
    4 68%
    2 65%
    6 65%
    7 55%
    8 58%
    1 50%
    3 50%

    type score type behavior motivation
    2 56 I must be helpful and caring to be happy.
    5 55 I must be knowledgeable and independent to be happy.
    6 55 I must be secure and safe to be happy.

    1 48 I must be perfect and good to be happy.
    4 44 I must avoid painful feelings to be happy.
    9 43 I must be peaceful and easy to get along with to be happy.
    3 38 I must be impressive and attractive to be happy.
    8 19 I must be strong and in control to be happy.
    7 17 I must be high and entertained to be happy.

    These are the last three Enneagram tests i've taken. Five comes out more consistently than nine. I will tend to dismiss the anxiety type 6 to some extent because I'm aware of how environmental factors influenced me in that regard and tend to be pretty level-headed about danger in that context. I think the type 2 is also environmental as i had more duties and concerns than a child would ideally. The description of 9 doesn't really fit either. I wonder if I am a five. The description of four might fit the best, but it isn't reflected in my scores. hmmm

    edit: After reading the descriptions at the site, I think 5w4 is about right.
    Quote Originally Posted by enneagram
    Four wing brings an abstract, intuitive cast of thought, as though the Five were thinking in geometric shapes instead of words or realistic images. May be talented artistically and inhabit moods like Fours do. Combine intellectual and emotional imagination. Enjoy the realm of philosophy and beautiful constructs of thought. The marriage of mental perspective and aesthetics is the best of life for them.

    When more defensive may seem a little ghostly, have a whisper in their voice. Fluctuate between impersonal withdrawal and bursts of friendly caring. Can get floaty and abstract. Act like they're inside a bubble, sometimes with an air of implicit superiority. Cliché of the "absentminded professor" applies especially to Fives with this wing.

    Environmentally sensitive and subject at times to total overwhelm. Touchy about criticism. Can be slow to recover from traumatic events. Melancholy isolation and bleak existential depression are possible pitfalls.
    or maybe a 4w5
    Quote Originally Posted by enneagram
    Four With a 5 Wing
    Healthy side of this wing brings a withdrawn, complex creativity. May be somewhat intellectual but have exceptional depth of feeling and insight. Very much their own person, original and idiosyncratic. Have a spiritual and aesthetic openness. Will find multiple levels of meaning to most events. May have a strong need and ability to pour themselves into artistic creations. Loners; can seem enigmatic and hard to read. Externally reserved and internally resonant. When they open up it can be sudden and total.

    When entranced or defensive, Fours with a 5 wing can easily feel alienated and depressed. Many have a sense of not belonging, of being from another planet. Can get lost in their own process, drown in their own ocean. Whiny - tend to ruminate and relive past experience. Prone to the emotion of shame. Air of sullen, withdrawn disappointment. May live within a private mythology of pain and loss. Can get deeply morbid and fall in love with death.
    Step into my metaphysical room of mirrors.
    Fear of reality creates myopic morality
    So I guess it means there is trouble until the robins come
    (from Blue Velvet)

  4. #74
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I pretty much totally renounce the wing theory at this point.

    I really have to get cracking on the development of my own type relational theories.

    Maybe I should even write a test. Unfortunately, the test would require some dynamics that aren't available with most free test designers.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  5. #75
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Enneagram is very similar to the FIRO-based five temperament theory my avatar is based on.

    The "Directional Theory of the Enneagram" (Thomas Chou, Enneagram Monthly Jan. 2000) attempted to turn Karen Horney's scale into a 2D matrix, (http://www.9types.com/writeup/Theory20.htm) but retained the "towards/away/against" points (changed into that order) and designated, respectively "Embracing" (Self is changed by others), "Withdrawal" (self is separate from others) and "Confrontation" (self changes others). This becomes "surface direction" (short term motivation), while the new dimension of "deep direction" (long term motivation), the scales are "Approval-seeking", "Ideal Seeking" and "Power-seeking". This roughly corresponds to Expressive (i.e. intro/extraversion) and Responsiveness (loosely, T/F and J/P). In both scales, "Towards" is considered "+", "Away" is "0", and "Against" is "-". This differs from the E/R scale, which is based on + "high"/ 0 "moderate"/ - "low". Therefore, the 9 types, which can easily be matched to the five temperaments, plus four moderate blends, come out in a totally different order, with slightly different criteria for categorizing their behavior.
    But to measure them in terms of high/mod/low Expressiveness and responsiveness:

    The Pure temperaments:
    Type 5 Observer, Thinker, Investigator Insightful, theoretical, detached, eccentric, intense. They can be extremely brilliant and inventive, but also nihilistic and alienated:
    Purely Introverted and Directive (Low E and R): Melancholy

    Type 6 Loyalist, (Loyal Skeptic) Devil's Advocate, Defender - Loyal, skeptical, complex, paranoid, dependable. They can be excellent team players but get lost in scapegoating and fear:
    basically introverted (low E), but an apparent need of acceptance (High R) Supine
    (the fifth temperament; sort of a passive Sanguine, In FIRO, it would be an "inhibited individual", "loyal lieutenant" or "cautious lover").

    Type 7 Enthusiast, Adventurer, Materialist, Epicure Enthusiastic, worldly, optimistic, scattered, accomplished. They can truly love life like no one else, but can fall victim to hedonism and excess:
    extraverted, People-oriented (high E, R) Sanguine

    Type 8 Leader, Protector, Challenger, Boss Powerful, leading, aggressive, cruel, protective. They can be magnanimous leaders who get the job done, but can become violent and terrorizing:
    extraverted, task-oriented (high E, low R) Choleric

    Type 9 Mediator, Peacemaker, Preservationist Peaceful, receptive, complacent, forgetting, gentle. They can be relaxed and terrific friends, but can become unaware of reality and problems:
    moderate in both scales (considered "introverted" when compared to 3, 7 and 8, but not as introverted as 4 and 5): Phlegmatic

    Moderate temperaments

    Type 1 (Reformer, Critic, Perfectionist Perfectionistic, orderly, hard-working, ethical, conscientious). They can be very rational and idealistic, but can also be judgmental and convinced they are always right:
    purely "directive" or "task-oriented" (low responsiveness) like a Melancholy or Choleric; moderate expressiveness (i.e. ambiversion): between Melancholy and Choleric

    Type 2 Helper, Giver, Caretaker Generous, friendly, prideful, seductive, reassuring. They can be very loving and dedicated, but also possessive and manipulative:
    purely "informative" or "relationship-oriented" (high R) also moderate expressiveness: between Supine and Sanguine

    Type 3 Motivator, Achiever, Performer, Succeeder Ambitious, goal-oriented, adaptable, deceiving, presentable. They can be exemplars of "all you can be", but also shallow and arrogant:
    purely extraverted (High expressiveness); moderate R (ambiguous people/task orientation): between Sanguine and Choleric.

    Type 4 Romantic, Individualist, Artist Creative, depressive, romantic, shy, unique. They can be profound artists who express the inexpressible, but also self-hating and clinging:
    purely introverted, also ambiguous people/task-orientation (mod. R) between Supine and Melancholy

    You can see videos of each type at http://www.enneagramworldwide.com/ex...the-nine-types and also a helpful "dinner table" illustration at http://www.wagele.com/DinPart.html. The best set of descriptions, which also seem to greatly support my correlations are at Enneagram Introduction, Theory, and Research at 9types.com

    Enneagram's "Instinctual variants" are a direct match for FIRO's three areas: social=Inclusion, self preservation=Control, sexual=deep personal. The problem is, and why I think people are having problems with the wings and the different scores, is that they do not stack the different types. They only stack the same type, but place so, sp and sx in different orders. In FIRO-based theories, the three areas have their own scores, so you can mix any temperament or behavior pattern. I have put off taking an Enneagram test, but I may try one of those sometime. For now, I would say that I was 6so8sp6sx. But since you can't do that, my behavior will probably be covered by a 6w5 or 4w3.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  6. #76
    Senior Member htb's Avatar
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    The ordering -- roughly according to a grid -- is appreciated, Eric. Attributing ambiversion to Type One not only lvalidates my own qualified extraversion but distinguishes Type One from Type Eight.

  7. #77
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    I've seen that theory before... My avatar use to be nine smileys, positioned in a way very similar to yours, Eric. I originally made the picture as a test to see which face people would assign each Enneagram type to.

    And if I understood you correctly, you were calling for each variable to be scored in a stack as was I. Interesting.

    Also, I too observed independently that one aspect of the Enneagram was akin to Horney's three styles. This was the foundation for my Aggressive, Supportive, Evasive trichotomy. Don't that beat all?

    However, I don't think any adjustment really salvages the wing system, because what I have uncovered is that the wing system has a totally illogical basis. It's more aesthetic than practical.
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  8. #78
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    I really want to see that avatar! Do you still have it saved on your system, or could it still be on the site somewhere? Here's another representation with the faces on an enneagram (as well as the type numbers mapped to the same matrix used in my avatar): http://members.aol.com/etb700/enneagram.jpg

    In my system, a "wing" might be more like an area of the temperament near the boundary of the next temperament. (remember, it's graduated with the scores running from 0 to 9). The problem in Enneagram is, wings are the only blending of types recognized, and they are only allowed between consecutive numbers. So 1 would appear to be next to 8 (and 5), instead of 9 being next to 8. If they allowed stacking of different types along the variants, you probably wouldn't need wings, and it would explain a lot of these anomalies to people.

    Which "theory" had you heard of before? FIRO itself, or the temperament system based on it?
    I've just sent a couple of interested people an essay articulating my correlation between systems, and I was going to send it to you too, but I don't see your e-mail. Before, I had just been linking to my pages, but those are much longer and more drawn out.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
    Type Ideas

  9. #79
    ^He pronks, too! Magic Poriferan's Avatar
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    My avatar was slightly modified from anything on a site.
    It was customized.

    And here it is in a form too large for an avatar:
    GalenSmileys.jpg
    Go to sleep, iguana.


    _________________________________
    INTP. Type 1>6>5. sx/sp.
    Live and let live will just amount to might makes right

  10. #80
    ⒺⓉⒷ Eric B's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magic Poriferan View Post
    My avatar was slightly modified from anything on a site.
    It was customized.

    And here it is in a form too large for an avatar:
    GalenSmileys.jpg
    Thanks!!!
    Whoah! Now those look too close to mine for comfort!
    You said "slightly modified from anything on a site", "customized". I don't get that. Do you mean they were not copied from anywhere, but were customized by being made from scratch instead? Or that they were copied, and then "customized" by being slightly modified (i.e. colored in)?

    I got from mine from another Wikipedian, who created four of them for the "Four Temperaments" article. They matched pictures of carved masks representing the temperaments. The shy looking one (in the upper left) was Phlegmatic. The person released them to the public under the Wiki GNU license. So I copied them, and I have seen other sites copy some of them, and if you copied them, it is OK.
    So I took them for both my Five Temperament article, as well as my sites, and redesignated the shy looking one as the fifth temperament, and created the one with the straight mouth and eyes as the true Phlegmatic. I also created the "inbetween" ones with either the eyes OR mouth straight (but not both), which represent what we call the "Phlegmatic Blends". These lie between the five main temperaments.
    This was all done about 3 years ago.

    Here's an excerpt from my site where I explain how to read the faces:

    While these masks and faces were drawn to mimick the stereotypical "expressions" associated with each temperament (sad, angry, etc); unwittingly however, the combination of "withdrawn" (sad looking) or "outgoing" (angry looking) eyes and a frowning or smiling mouth turned out to correspond to the "expressive" and "responsive" behavior of the two-factor models, including five temperament theory! Eyes represent expressed behavior, and the mouth represents responsive behavior.

    So the sad eyes plus a frowning mouth ´`-( make a sad looking face for the Melancholy. LaHaye's "Martin Melancholy" character also looked like an uptight kind of person.

    Angry eyes plus the frowning mouth `´-( makes an angry looking face for the Choleric. LaHaye's "Rocky Choleric" character fits this disposition.

    Then "angry" eyes plus the smiling mouth `´-) make a "mischievous" looking face, for the playful and sometimes badly-behaved-for-attention Sanguine. LaHaye's "Sparky Sanguine" looked jolly and pepped up.

    However, the sad eyes plus the smiling mouth ´`-) makes a "shy", "bashful" or "humble", and perhaps "eager" looking face. This does NOT match LaHaye's "Phil Phlegmatic", who looked cool and emotionless. However, the smilie does fit perfectly the profile of the Supine, who is a shy but eager temperament.
    So for the Phlegmatic, I created an additional smilie to replace the "shy but eager" one. The new one simply has plain, straight eyes and mouth, ¦-| creating, well, a neutral, indifferent look: just like "Phil Phlegmatic".


    The blends are:
    ¦-(
    Phlegmatic Melancholy (express as a Phlegmatic; respond as a Melancholy)
    Phlegmatic Choleric (express as a Phlegmatic; respond as a Choleric)
    ¦-)
    Phlegmatic Sanguine (express as a Phlegmatic; respond as a Sanguine)
    Phlegmatic Supine (express as a Phlegmatic; respond as a Supine)
    `´-|
    Choleric Phlegmatic (express as a Choleric; respond as a Phlegmatic)
    Sanguine Phlegmatic (express as a Sanguine; respond as a Phlegmatic)
    ´`-|
    Supine Phlegmatic (express as a Supine; respond as a Phlegmatic)
    Melancholy Phlegmatic (express as a Melancholy; respond as a Phlegmatic)

    Those pairs are what I divide up as types 1-4, respectively.

    So what order of Enneagram types does your image follow? What is what on there? (I know it can't simply be in numerical order, because the happy-but-shy one in the upper left can't be #1. That table is just like mine, but flipped diagonally.
    APS Profile: Inclusion: e/w=1/6 (Supine) |Control: e/w=7/3 (Choleric) |Affection: e/w=1/9 (Supine)
    Ti 54.3 | Ne 47.3 | Si 37.8 | Fe 17.7 | Te 22.5 | Ni 13.4 | Se 18.9 | Fi 27.9

    Temperament (APS) from scratch -- MBTI Type from scratch
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