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  1. #131
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Harry's a 9 with a really strong 8 wing. I'd say he's a 9w8>6w7>2w1 sx/sp (he has a lot of sx intensity)

    He's very conflict avoidant! Especially with Hermione.











    He rarely ever seeks conflict with Draco and his gang. Draco nearly always initiates things. He seems to have a lot of Fi explosions though.
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  2. #132
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    I personally like villains with substance. I love the Harry Potter series, and also LOTR and Star Wars, but I think out of all the series, Star Wars has the closest thing to good villains, and even though episodes 4, 5, and 6 are so much better, the content of the villains' characters is more laid out in episodes 1, 2, and 3. I know the acting is terrible and the CGI is overdone, but the idea of Annikin and his personal struggle is more relatable, and the Emperor's quest for power is not that far off from your local politician. I'd prefer to have villains who are human, who have vulnerabilities and specific motives; something that would line up with an enneagram type. That's why, although I find Harry Potter to be an amazing series, and JK Rowling so inspiring, the villain is disappointing.

    The only thing that makes him even remotely human is seeing that he's abused as a kid, but that is just SO typical. And even as a kid he's a pure sociopath. I'd like a villain with fully developed frontal lobes, and a serious internal conflict, thankuverymuch. Someone who I kind of want to have wild sex with, but kind of want to kill. I want to feel that conflict inside of myself; I want to taste my own need for revenge; I want to feel my own powerlust and anger and disappointment and fear coursing through my veins when a villain starts to lose his mind and slowly transition from a passionate kid to an off-the-hook psycho. I want to FEEL it. I want to wish I could shake him and set him straight. I want to feel strong because I saved myself, by contrast. I want to wonder whether I really did save myself. This is what would make a great villain, to me.

    Top notch villain:
    The Phantom in Phantom of the Opera.

    Severus Snape is a good anti-hero. Even Draco Malfoy is a decently sympathetic "villain." Better than Voldemort. Voldemort is so unreal that I can't even hate him. I just want to laugh in his weird face.
    Completely agree with you! J.K. gave us all this information about Voldemort's personal background in the 6th book and in the 7th, he's just reduced to a typical children's book villain? It's not really like her to do that sort of thing.
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  3. #133
    Member Vergil's Avatar
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    @LeaT, @madhatter, @Maybe

    Well, I don't have a good memory for stuff I've read and I am not exactly a great fan of HP. I read all the books until I got pissed off, due to JKR's killing of Sirius and I did not read book 6 because of said pissing off. BUT, I did read book 7 because I wanted Harry to die along with Voldy, which I believe would have been a fitting end to both the story and that world (I do not wish to draw too many parallels between our world and theirs, because it seems like we'd be comparing apples and oranges).

    The point I am trying to make by saying all of the above is that my typing was based heavily on my impression of Harry as I recall it right now. Which is to say, my memory may be way, way off. But I still believe Harry lacked very strongly in the "initiative" department, which is very unlike any assertive type, IMO. Even if you consider the whole disintegration phenomenon, HP didn't seem as detached as an 8 moving to 5 would/should/could be. He had an 8-ish angle to most things he did in the series, which I would attribute to a wing on a core 9 fix. His conflict avoidance seemed very obvious to me throughout the book.

    An instance that comes to mind (that probably supports 9, based on my recall) is dinner with an Aunt Marge, I think. He did something to her due to pent up anger that he had not expressed, only to have it leak out in ways he did not understand until much later (and during "much later" he experienced this leakage of anger once more, but understood it and just didn't give a rats ass about it).

    As for character development, yeah, I agree with you. Books and all their -agonists (Oh, the agony ) are never of any one fixed type, due to changing conceptions about them in the author's mind over the course of writing/creation. I also have another point to add, as I said to @Maybe during our conversation about HP. A lot of actions of HP in the book are more likely to be inconsistent with whatever types we can come up for him, because at certain points, an author is likely to add elements which may be due to, or, may lead to one following effects -
    • higher sales due to typical appeal, E.g. Twilight (sorry Twilight fans, no offense intended)
    • preconceived notions/unconscious standards about how a certain -agonist "should" be
    • desperate need to have a certian outcome; author's stubborness with how the story should pan out
    • leakage of author's own self through the actions of the character, etc.


    So, on the whole, we need look at what we want to do. Endeavors such as these (typing of fictional characters) will be rendered useless if we start to think of them as creations that changed over time due to the author's changing life conditions, moods, intentions, needs, etc. If we want to type someone, we must necessarily overlook anything that would change our conception of the character as a real person in a real world. Any typing should necessarily not take into account any of the above. It is hard to do that, but then again, who said it'd be easy to begin with?

    (forgive any typos, I have not taken the time to edit)
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  4. #134
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    I am not as sure of the 2-fix as I am of the other two. Essentially, at this point, I'm saying 2-fix, because I don't see much evidence for a heart fix at all, so it makes sense it would be his last fix. He could have a 4-fix, but I am going have to be convinced of that. So, it's more of an impression and subject to change with further though, but I'll try to deconstruct what I'm thinking now.

    Take for instance, in book 2, when Harry's not getting any letters or news from his Hogwarts life. He bemoans the fact they're ignoring him and doing stuff without him, after all he did for them, after he saved their life at the end of book 1. This "after all I did for them" attitude, strikes me as very 2-ish. To me, this comes off as 2-fix. Also, Harry in his unhealthy stages has no trouble guilt-tripping Ron and Hermione, like in book 5, again when Harry has been kept out of the loop. This also comes across as 2-fix to me. My mom is core-2 and my dad has a 2-fix, and I have received the guilt trip from both of them a time or two (actually a lot of times, but that requires a book in itself lol).

    Also, Harry spent his formative years essentially being told he was not good enough. He was not worthy of love or special attention. He can't do anything right in the Dursleys' eyes. And Harry accepts this. I don't think he reacted to it all as a 4-fixer might (although granted, I am a self-professed 4 ignoramus). He thinks he's not good enough or deserving enough. Like when he gets special attention from Hagrid at first on his 11th birthday, there is still a part of him that is surprised about at all, the "oh, you really didn't need to do this", part genuine humility, part pride, that I have come to associate with 2. He does that with Mrs. Weasley as well.

    Harry is not concerned with being or appearing the best as a 3-fixer would, nor does he compartmentalize his emotions. Nor does he seem overly concerning with uniqueness, or being separate and forming his own unique identity, as a 4-fixer. He is concerned with authenticity and integrity, but I think these stem from other areas. He does put on what a core-2 I know calls "masks". He'll put on a mask when he doesn't want to emotionally revealing, or burden others with his emotional problems. Like lying to Lupin saying everything is okay when everything obviously is not, putting on a positive mask. He doesn't do this to the extent that the IRL core-2 does, but it is only a fix. But the core-2 I know is a terrible liar, and I easily see through the masks. She really wears her heart on her sleeve, and I think Harry does too.

    Anyway, my arguments are not as solid for the heart-fix as they were for 6, but I think part of that is Harry just doesn't have core heart-triad issues. I really had to wrack my brain for examples in the book that point to a heart-fix at all, let alone differentiating it, haha.
    Right, yes, I see what you mean, and I see why you feel your arguments aren't so strong because I mean, I do this too aside the guilt-tripping.

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  5. #135
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Godamn double-posts.

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  6. #136
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    @Vergil all fair points. I'm the same, HP is not what I'm a fan of (haha, if you couldn't tell already I am of Bleach though). Just like you, I operate based off memory. It's been years since I saw the last film and the books. Just like you I got so pissed when she killed off Sirius like that. Shittiest writing ever to create conflict and drama in a story much? As you mentioned in your list, it definitely falls under the author needing to have the story develop a certain way but the way the story naturally developed went against this idea. Ergo that terrible asspull. Sirius is the second best candidate Rowling can offer as a complete character after Snape but whereas Snape's death was satisfying due to him ultimately being written as a tragic character (and all tragic characters need to die to atone their mistakes), Sirius' death was just that... an asspull that came out of nowhere because Rowling couldn't deal with the fact that if Harry ran off with Sirius he would probably forget the whole "let's save the world from Voldemort" instead of constantly following Sirius around like a little puppy if I exaggerate. And thus... there would have been no genuine resolve to the conflict. And a simple way to deal with that would to randomly kill off Sirius.

    @Aleda, on the other hand, why would he necessarily seek conflict if he doesn't have to? Conflict-avoidance is not alone a strong argument towards 9 in my opinion. Where's the positivity? Where's the psychospiritual laziness? Aside 8s and perhaps to a degree 3s and 7s (no surprise there, all fall under the assertive triad), most other types tend to shy conflict at average health (unhealthy types regardless of type can start picking conflicts with people) because seeking conflict is not natural for them. Even a CP6 is ultimately conflict-avoidant because CP6s use their "barking louder than their bite" attitude in order to avoid conflict. They deal with their anxiety by lashing out but by barking so loudly, they hope they will be able to intimidate their opponent who will be scared of them and pull back. That way the 6 does not have to deal with the conflict longer than necessary. The problem for CP6s is when the conflict drags out because their opponent is not intimidated by their barking because being in a conflict is again not natural for them. Snape most likely being some kind of 458 combination and also on top of that unhealthy, has no problems causing conflict or lashing out because he's unhealthy.

    Assuming of course, that Harry is a CP6. The argument could be rephrased to fit most enneatypes though. Also, when 9s avoid conflict, they do it in a positive manner. Again, compare Luna Lovegood to Harry Potter. She's a perfect example of a 9. During book 4 when I think it was Ron who got jinxed and all his bones in his body disappeared, she started making funny remarks about how his current physical state isn't so bad. Think of all the positive things he could do now instead of before! This is a perfect example of 9 think and 9s reaching simple and truthful but yet painfully unrealistic conclusions and instead of dealing with the fact that Ron's ultimately being in a terrible physical state, she tries to cover this up with these positive fantasies. Where does Harry ever seem to do this in the book? Does he ever purposefully avoid negative emotions by thinking positively? Does he ever seem to express a slothful attitude of "conflict takes too much effort, why can't we all just get along?" kind of mentality that a 9 would? Also, at some level I think a 9 in Harry's scenario would have an immensely difficult time accepting the conflict and rivalry between himself and Voldemort. Imagine at the beginning in book 1 when Harry is told of Voldemort's existence and the backstory of the boy-who-lived and people say that you should not mention his name? What does Harry do? He starts reacting that it's stupid. Why should you care about whether you call him Voldemort instead of you-know-who? I think that's at least a rational head approach. A 9 would not react the way he did in my opinion.

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  7. #137
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Character development and plot development:

    I disagree. If you look at the structure in all 7 books, it's so tight and the way themes mirror each other, it had to be planned out before she wrote any of them. The main characters are well-rounded, and as they grow up in the books, I don't think they ever act in a way that is unnatural for the story. I don't see their growth as switching types or whatnot to suit the story. Their changes throughout the books are what is an accurate depiction of growing up. They do change between book 1 and book 7, but how they change is consistent to their characters.

    Some side characters, like Voldemort, you get the sense that these characters are not completely rounded and fleshed out, but that makes sense. He doesn't even have a body until book 4, and before that, he's a half-spirit or a memory in a journal. Even with Dumbledore, you don't get a true sense of his personality or character until the later books, when Harry actually gets to know him. Before that, Dumbledore just seems like a grandfatherly figure, the mentor figure, with only a hint of what he's actually like. But that makes sense as well. When book 1 starts, Harry is 11. Kids see adults, mentors, parents, etc. a certain way. They build up expectations and illusions about these people in their lives whom they idealize, which is very one-sided, and not an accurate representation. Harry's illusions of Dumbledore were shattered in book 5. But the other thing that I love about the characters in the books: they are all flawed. On the flipside, even many of the villains (with the exception of Voldemort who is beyond redemption) have redeeming qualities. Book 5 is brilliant. Dumbledore is revealed as a flawed man who can make mistakes, and because of his position of power, his mistakes can be on a monumental scale, as evidenced by Sirius' death.

    I don't think Sirius' death was meaningless, or a cheap tactic to create conflict and drama in the story. I see it as a meaningful consequence of all the characters' actions in book 5: Harry's, Dumbledore's, even Sirius'. Unlike the first three books, this isn't a game or adventure anymore. This is a war, and people die. Dumbledore screwed up by not being straight-up with Harry and treating him like a child. Harry screwed up because he was angry, he was impulsive, and he didn't take his Occlumency lessons seriously, and therefore opened himself up to be fooled and manipulated. Sirius was impulsive and he loved Harry, so of course, he's going to rush to his rescue. Sirius has also been cooped up for months and months (another mishandling on Dumbledore's part). Maybe if he wasn't going stir-crazy and had a chance to take action, he wouldn't have been so reckless. But also, Sirius was a flawed man, especially with how he treated Kreacher, which was his undoing in the end. I did not see his death as an asspull at all. It was inevitable.

  8. #138
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    Character development and plot development:

    I disagree. If you look at the structure in all 7 books, it's so tight and the way themes mirror each other, it had to be planned out before she wrote any of them. The main characters are well-rounded, and as they grow up in the books, I don't think they ever act in a way that is unnatural for the story. I don't see their growth as switching types or whatnot to suit the story. Their changes throughout the books are what is an accurate depiction of growing up. They do change between book 1 and book 7, but how they change is consistent to their characters.
    I am not saying this has to be 100% true for Harry Potter specifically. I am just pointing out that this is prone to happen in fiction as a whole once in a while.

    Some side characters, like Voldemort, you get the sense that these characters are not completely rounded and fleshed out, but that makes sense. He doesn't even have a body until book 4, and before that, he's a half-spirit or a memory in a journal. Even with Dumbledore, you don't get a true sense of his personality or character until the later books, when Harry actually gets to know him. Before that, Dumbledore just seems like a grandfatherly figure, the mentor figure, with only a hint of what he's actually like. But that makes sense as well. When book 1 starts, Harry is 11. Kids see adults, mentors, parents, etc. a certain way. They build up expectations and illusions about these people in their lives whom they idealize, which is very one-sided, and not an accurate representation. Harry's illusions of Dumbledore were shattered in book 5. But the other thing that I love about the characters in the books: they are all flawed. On the flipside, even many of the villains (with the exception of Voldemort who is beyond redemption) have redeeming qualities. Book 5 is brilliant. Dumbledore is revealed as a flawed man who can make mistakes, and because of his position of power, his mistakes can be on a monumental scale, as evidenced by Sirius' death.
    I agree though. I do like book 5 the most of all the books, part because I think I found Harry to be the most relateable to me in book 5. The more light-hearted fairy tale nature of the first books were more difficult for me to swallow. It was only after book 3 and the introduction of the dementors (I could argue she didn't pull that far enough though, but meh) that I thought the overall darker tone spoke to me more. I do think Harry expresses a lot of 8 anger in book 5 but meh. So long since I read it and so long since I was the age when I read it. I can see why I could see parallels between myself and Harry thought because I was also a very angry person as a teenager.

    I don't think Sirius' death was meaningless, or a cheap tactic to create conflict and drama in the story. I see it as a meaningful consequence of all the characters' actions in book 5: Harry's, Dumbledore's, even Sirius'. Unlike the first three books, this isn't a game or adventure anymore. This is a war, and people die. Dumbledore screwed up by not being straight-up with Harry and treating him like a child. Harry screwed up because he was angry, he was impulsive, and he didn't take his Occlumency lessons seriously, and therefore opened himself up to be fooled and manipulated. Sirius was impulsive and he loved Harry, so of course, he's going to rush to his rescue. Sirius has also been cooped up for months and months (another mishandling on Dumbledore's part). Maybe if he wasn't going stir-crazy and had a chance to take action, he wouldn't have been so reckless. But also, Sirius was a flawed man, especially with how he treated Kreacher, which was his undoing in the end. I did not see his death as an asspull at all. It was inevitable.
    Fine, we agree to disagree on this.

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  9. #139
    Retired Nicki's Avatar
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    @LeaT

    "Again, compare Luna Lovegood to Harry Potter. She's a perfect example of a 9. During book 4 when I think it was Ron who got jinxed and all his bones in his body disappeared, she started making funny remarks about how his current physical state isn't so bad. Think of all the positive things he could do now instead of before! This is a perfect example of 9 think and 9s reaching simple and truthful but yet painfully unrealistic conclusions and instead of dealing with the fact that Ron's ultimately being in a terrible physical state, she tries to cover this up with these positive fantasies. Where does Harry ever seem to do this in the book? Does he ever purposefully avoid negative emotions by thinking positively? Does he ever seem to express a slothful attitude of "conflict takes too much effort, why can't we all just get along?" kind of mentality that a 9 would"

    That never happened. It was Harry who got all his bones jinxed in 2nd year after Dobby hexed a bludger. Harry, Ron, and Hermione never met Luna until their 5th year. Are you talking about Ron in 6th year?

    In HBP, he tries to avoid thinking about Sirius whenever his thoughts wander to him. He also represses a lot of his negative feelings and pretends he's doing okay most of the time. OoTP was the only time Harry ever let out his pent up anger. With Ron and Hermione, he constantly has that attitude.
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  10. #140
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aleda View Post
    @LeaT

    "Again, compare Luna Lovegood to Harry Potter. She's a perfect example of a 9. During book 4 when I think it was Ron who got jinxed and all his bones in his body disappeared, she started making funny remarks about how his current physical state isn't so bad. Think of all the positive things he could do now instead of before! This is a perfect example of 9 think and 9s reaching simple and truthful but yet painfully unrealistic conclusions and instead of dealing with the fact that Ron's ultimately being in a terrible physical state, she tries to cover this up with these positive fantasies. Where does Harry ever seem to do this in the book? Does he ever purposefully avoid negative emotions by thinking positively? Does he ever seem to express a slothful attitude of "conflict takes too much effort, why can't we all just get along?" kind of mentality that a 9 would"

    That never happened. It was Harry who got all his bones jinxed in 2nd year after Dobby hexed a bludger. Harry, Ron, and Hermione never met Luna until their 5th year. Are you talking about Ron in 6th year?

    In HBP, he tries to avoid thinking about Sirius whenever his thoughts wander to him. He also represses a lot of his negative feelings and pretends he's doing okay most of the time. OoTP was the only time Harry ever let out his pent up anger. With Ron and Hermione, he constantly has that attitude.
    Perhaps I am confusing. It's a long time since I saw either film or read the books.

    My overall point still stands though since I fail to see how you refuted them. Telling others you are doing ok emotionally doesn't point towards a positive outlook. I can just easily contrast to Kurosaki Ichigo from Bleach who is most likely a 4w5 and he does the same thing and he doesn't even have 9 in his tritype.

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