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  1. #121
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Yes!
    I'm also a fan of the "unsuspecting hero" - sort of like Frodo Baggins, except I'd want my heroes to have more of a dark side .. I love thrusting characters with the most unsuspecting qualities into really tough situations and making them squirm, and then triumph over that adversity. I love personal growth, too.


    This is pretty much how he is. =,) (That makes me happy.. haha!) It's just, I guess the particular behavior and quirk-set could be attributed to a few cores. It makes me feel a bit better that I have his tritype down, quite clearly.

    I'm very obsessive about my characters and plot, and all the background stuff. I'm not amazing at the craft of writing but I'd hand it over to an editor at that phase. I actually came to study enneagram and MBTI for this reason - to get a different perspective on people which can help me to understand my characters even more. Of course, I would never write a character on that basis; I'd let them develop naturally, and use these systems to evaluate them for my own further understanding during the editing phase.

    Sometimes, though, I wonder if it's more of a hindrance than a help.
    I think of Harry Potter as a very unsuspecting hero. My fav part of all of it is that he is always not sure of his role as The One. This reminds me of Neo, which is another great character, though I cannot stand Keanu Reeves as an actor. :ack: I would totally have cast that differently! Anyway, that unlikely One my favorite protagonist archetype.


    I think the Phantom was a wonderful character. I cannot believe Christine did not choose him.
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  2. #122
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    A few things:

    What is the one thing that Harry desires more than anything? A family. A security net of people, which for the longest time, he never had himself, and in which he finds it with the Weasleys, and continues to build. It's something he's always seeking.
    This is an excellent point.

    What do you think an 8 would do in that situation? I'd want to say they'd seek vengeance for the murder of their family. But, that would be the makings of a villain. 8s can be heroes too, right? I'd say a heroic 8 would still cry when looking in the mirror and seeing their dead family members who were unjustly killed. However, the next point is good: that his answer to this is to seek a security net of people. I do wonder, though, if a kid is that young, and finds a family that will accept him, if he'd go with it. For instance, I know someone who I'm quite sure is an 8 - he's classic - and stayed with my family for a while when he was young because his own family was not working out so well. He seeks autonomy, travels on his own all the time, won't settle down, etc, and always had a very independent/ autonomous/ anti-family unit mindset, but he still enjoyed the comfort and love of a new family. The Weasley issue doesn't necessarily seem incongruent. In that situation, who wouldn't feel better having a family who loves them? What, in the makeup of an 8, would cause them to necessarily reject that? I wanted to move out of my house when I was 16, and ran away all the time as a kid, but I knew I could come back. If I had no place to go at the tender age of 11, and existed in a world of magic where my survival was at stake, I can't guarantee I wouldn't take up an offer from a kind , generous family to take care of me, even if I wouldn't look to them for opinions on what I should do with my life, etc. It's a matter of survival really. (Although, if he's an 8, it does make a lot less sense that he didn't run away from his aunt and uncle when he was young.)

    However, this point is an irrefutable one:
    He's seeking guidance from authority figures, or maybe trying to replace parental figures, throughout all the 7 books - Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius. I don't see the go-it-alone, I-don't-need-anybody mentality in Harry. In the end of book 7, he does "go-it-alone" to face Voldemort, but the reasons why he does that are coming from a different place than a need for autonomy and control.
    You're right here. He did it alone because he didn't want any of his friends to die because of him. However the other list of authorities that you mention here, who he leaned on for support (outside of simply, survival) is definitely more authorities than an 8 would bother with.

    Making an alliance with Dumbledore is intelligent: it's a matter of having power in the school. If you have the most powerful person in your back pocket you have more power. Bingo. Some people would say this is 3-like thinking, but I think if Corporate CEO is a stereotype for 8s, too, then 8s must also know how to climb up the ladder. I'd agree, though, that Harry's particular method of suckuppery is a tad un-iddish, but it still *could* fall into the category of survival mechanisms, or gaining power, as a behavior (but you're right to point out, the motives are probably different). Living with the Weasleys could be seen as an act of seeking survival opportunities. However Lupin, Sirius, etc; unnecessary. Still, having allies does give a person more power. But the reasons are what we'd be looking at, in terms of enneagram. I can buy your argument that he did this because he is seeking a new 'family structure.' It does make more sense, with his character, than doing it because it's pragmatic. He gets very attached to these people and their place in his life. He goes to them for advice regularly.

    I do think that Harry is CP6. One, his fear is not overtly present in his thought processes, the fact of the matter is he is still motivated by it. He fears losing the new life that he loves, Hogwarts and his friends. Also, Harry doubts and questions himself all the time, doubts his own mind, and exhibits circular 6-ish thinking. He does not think he's the hero that everyone says he is. This label that everyone thrusts on him never truly goes to his head. Two, he doesn't avoid his fears; he faces them head on, in true counterphobic fashion. Also, his rule-breaking and his questioning of authority that he doesn't agree with, which he sees as unfair, like with Snape. Harry does not blindly accept authority. And although 6s do not have a monopoly on loyalty, Harry is completely loyal to his friends, the Weasleys and Dumbledore. Granted, he wavers and questions that, especially when his expectations and illusions of Dumbledore are broken and challenged, but even then he's still loyal to Dumbledore...Dumbledore's man to the last.
    Him not believing he's a hero is a key point you made here. I didn't think of that before when I posted (like I said, I didn't think it through, and it's been a while since I watched/ read the books) ... but you're right, the size of his ego is un-8ish. An 8 would probably feel right at home with that power, deep down, even if he didn't boast; but boasting would be inevitable as well, when he's less healthy. In fact, when I read the book, I remember thinking, "He's so badass, why is it so hard for him to think of himself as a hero?" Admirable modesty.

    The circular thinking and doubting of his own mind - another good point, and something I'd forgotten from the book.
    Can you pinpoint a disintegration to 3 and integration to 9?

    His actions are also ruled by superego. He acts to make things right or to help people. He's courageous, but he's got a huge savior/white knight complex. (This is may indicate a 2-fix as well, although I haven't quite pinned this aspect of him.)
    Savior/white knight complex - is this necessarily incongruent with an 8?
    8s think of themselves as magnanimous. Usually more of a 'dark, independent' knight mentality, but still, any 8 will convince himself or herself that they save the innocent, etc.

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  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    I think of Harry Potter as a very unsuspecting hero. My fav part of all of it is that he is always not sure of his role as The One. This reminds me of Neo, which is another great character, though I cannot stand Keanu Reeves as an actor. :ack: I would totally have cast that differently! Anyway, that unlikely One my favorite protagonist archetype.


    I think the Phantom was a wonderful character. I cannot believe Christine did not choose him.
    Haha.. I can see why Christine didn't choose him, in a way. She was clearly crazy about him, but then he started acting psycho. It was cold of her to go for Raul, and it's understandable that the Phantom felt the way he did, but his reactions reveal that there's something wrong with him. I don't think that the reason she rejected him is because Raul was better looking. At the end she even says "it is within your soul that the true distortion lies" and she's right.

    The Phantom is the more exciting, inspiring guy, but Raul is reliable. Had the phantom handled the rejection more like a man, he might have won his woman yet. Yes, I have high standards for my suitors.
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  4. #124
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    @madhatter

    I just got home (I wrote that post at a mac store!) and the whole ride home, I was thinking about this discussion. I think it finally kicked in what "Cp-6" actually means. I've been trying to wrap my head around it since I first encountered enneagram. Thanks, because now I know what angles to use to invade the 6 forum and figure out even more! =) This was a great discussion and shed light on this topic for me.
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  5. #125
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    @Vergil, I'm finally home so I can give you a proper response:

    I do think your point about 1s is fair enough. It's true that not every 1 is going to be like that since what perfectionism means differs between 1s. Just noting on a general tendency here though that I've noted among many 1s and how 1s also tend to have this funny megalomaniac streak to them XD.

    Anyway, onto Harry, I think the problem suggesting that he's a 9 regardless of wing (I think at this point it's more useful to look at core type and how it lines up with a character's behavior and what seems to motivate it) is that he seems to lack many apparent traits that I associate with 9, for example psychospiritual laziness, that he is clearly not exhibiting positive thinking in line with the positive triad or that he seems ignorant of his own anger or for the matter and I think most importantly, he is not conflict-avoidant. It is often Harry who initiates conflict during the course of the story part because of his brash and impulsive behavior. A big aspect of the trio's character dynamic depends on Harry being the iniator on action, Ron often wishing to be like Harry but chickening out and Hermione getting frustrated as a result of what she perceives to be such thoughtless behavior.

    If Harry was indeed a 9, I would imagine him being more akin to Luna Lovegood, I good candidate for a 469 or 479 trityper. Clearly they are worlds apart and Luna exhibits all the traits and behaviors I'd more properly associnate with a core enneagram 9. I fail to see how some people type her as a 4. It is clear that envy is not the driving force. Just because she's different and quirky (and I think a large part to blame for that is in fact her father) doesn't mean she must be a 4. All in all, I still posit that Harry is of the 468 tritype although I kind of agree with @madhatter's analysis for 6 as a potential core type.

    However, I wish also to bring up a very important point when we discuss characters in fiction and that is character development. As was pointed out with regards to villains, antagonists and protagonists tend to not always be very fleshed out in some areas in order to make them overall more relateable. This is why the concept of character development is important because characters in all works of fiction tend to fall under specific archetypes during their conception. If we for example analyze Harry Potter according to Joseph Campbell's monomyth theory, it is obvious that Dumbledore's archetype is that of the mentor, later perhaps replaced by Sirius to a degree (the circular nature of the monomyth means that several characters can inhabit the same archetype several times or independently of each other during the course of the story). Since the protagonist is indeed the hero, he, because in the case of the monomyth, he is sadly 99% of the time a he, he also performs the archetypal role of the hero.

    In modern fiction, as I pointed out to Maybe earlier, it seems that male teenage protagonists often seem to fall under the same character stereotype: they are often labelled as special in some way that reinforces their transgressive nature. They are not quite normal but not quite different. The hero's struggle thus revolves around being able to transcend the boundaries of difference and normalcy and become his own being. He may be born with special powers or abilities, he may be chosen by fate or he may be mentioned in an important prophecy to save the world. It is thus clear that our hero is different but not by choice and much of the hero's time is spent longing towards a sense of normalcy. It is at this point in the character's background and conception that the 4 fixation is established. Also ironically enough, the hero is rarely of the bookish or intellectual kind. Instead he is more immersed in the physical world around him and he's aggressive, brash and impulsive. The hero may for example have a history with physical violence. Because of often being mistreated for his perceived difference in the past, the hero has thus been forced into a social exile and find himself in a world where he must struggle to maintain his own survival. It is also often common for the hero to have lost at least one parent or being separated from his parents at birth. Part of the hero's journey tends to revolve around the hero being able to reunite and reconcile this sense of loss or lack caused by his parents. In a few cases it is also possible that the parent/s is neglectful and oblivious to the hero's plight and he feels that he lacks the support and care a loving parent should provide him. Again, this causes a sense of being alone in this world and it is his job to ensure that he survives. This explains the 8 fixation.

    Thus, finding himself in a world that depises him for being different and he secretely longs for the normalcy and happiness everyone else seem to possess while constantly sensing like he must struggle to survive, he starts to question his purpose and why he is here and why the world exists in the way it does in a paranoid manner. One could also of course note often the quite utter lack of a strong authority figure present in the hero's life prior to his call to adventure, or the existence of such an authority figure so strong that the hero is expected to be molded into this authority figure's image by the social environment in which he exists in; instead of accepting him to walk his own path. Clearly the world is out to get him. This explains the 6 fixation. Also often keeping to himself and seeking stability, I think the hero tends to be sp first. He never lets people know of his internal suffering (sp 4), he can be very magnamanious and giving to those around him that he cares about (sp 8) often being willing to sacrifice his own life for them and he is utterly dedicated to find out about the truth about the state of the world affairs once he has accepted the call to adventure and becomes involved with the quite often, (rebel) group or organization that provides the social stability he so utterly sought (sp 6).

    I also find that this kind of teenage male protagonist can be any of these three core types. Cloud Strife in Advent Children is clearly a 4, Kurosaki Ichigo in Bleach is clearly a 4, Nero in Devil May Cry 4 is a 6, Uzumaki Naruto in Naruto is a 6 and Dante in the new DmC: Devil May Cry game is most likely an 8. Another funny aspect I found that these characters have in common is that they tend to be introverts and judging dominants although it is not always true, but they tend to be. They also tend to be feelers and they tend to be Fi types as opposed to Fe types. Does it mean that popular fiction thinks that today's boy youth all consists of xSFP 468s LOL?!

    So, to my main point (the little that I had), is that when we talk about character development in fiction, it is the archetype of the hero that changes. We can sometimes ascribe the archetype he seems to embody as the hero at times, for example the prodigy child (although I think in modern fiction aimed for adolescent boys in particular this is getting less common, nowadays it is the protagonist who must struggle the most while still possessing innate but poorly expressed talent), and how this relates to type is important because whereas we actual human beings tend to be stuck with our type and simply move along it's spectrum, this is not always true for a fictive character. A character of the 468 tritype can for example start out as an ISTP 6 e.g. Cloud Strife in Final Fantasy VII, but because the vision of his character changed because the authors either wanted to change him or due to natural character progression, we now find that Cloud Strife is often typed as an INFP 4w5. Another example I already mentioned is Kurosaki Ichigo who similarly seemed to start out as some kind of stereotypical CP6 ISTP at the beginning of Bleach but is now usually typed as an ISFP 4w5. So when we discuss a character's type in a story that has been developed over a long time e.g. Harry Potter which was written over the course of 10 years and later also filmed over the course of 7+ years, an important question to raise is when. At which point in time are we discussing the character? Harry is not the same in The Order of the Phoenix as he is in The Philospoher's Stone.

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  6. #126
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    @LeaT

    I like the point you made about how the core of characters can change throughout fiction, even if this doesn't happen in real life. That is a great point.

    I also think @madhatter's points about core 6 were excellent.

    Also - Luna never struck me as a core 4, either. There's nothing masochistic about her. 9w1 makes sense.
    What would you make of Ginny's type?
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  7. #127
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    @LeaT

    I like the point you made about how the core of characters can change throughout fiction, even if this doesn't happen in real life. That is a great point.
    Noted this problem over at PersC too in the celebrities type me subforum where people would often attempt to type famous characters. One of my favorite shows is Dexter but it is clear that Dexter in season 1 is quite different to Dexter i seaosn 8 and they may not be the same core type or even same tritype anymore.

    I also think @madhatter's points about core 6 were excellent.
    I agree, and I would have to reread the books if I were to refute it.

    Also - Luna never struck me as a core 4, either. There's nothing masochistic about her. 9w1 makes sense.
    Agreed. The fact that Luna is quirky because her father is quirky actually shows how much Luna is conflict-avoidant and compliant towards her father, not wanting to take the conflict with him and why the Lovegood family is perceived as laughing stock in the wizard world. If Luna was a 4, she'd try to separate herself from her father's influence and develop her own identity instead of simply adopting his way of being and even defend him whenever criticism is raised towards his sanity in particular.

    What would you make of Ginny's type?
    I honestly don't know. In my mind, Ginny was so poorly developed and was more a name of a person Harry longed for than an actual character with an actual personality, it's like I have no real grasp of her. I don't know why I intuitively want to say 2 though. One of the problems I think the HP universe suffers from is ironically too large a cast. The character development among the characters is incredibly uneven and I think only Snape truly ended up being developed in a way that felt fully satisfying for the audience. His development was complete; I can't say that this is true for the rest of the cast including Dumbledore that is often a very popular choice among the fans.

    As you noted yourself, Voldemort was handled incredibly poorly for a villain. I know Rowling wanted to make him seem evil even in his youth, but I think what she did was just almost something akin to a Mary Sue. Hardly an example of great writing. I think a villain I really enjoy in contrast is Sephiroth in the Final Fantansy VII franchise. He has clear motives, a well-developed background story and his reasons why he wants to destroy the world and the universe are understandable and even perhaps relateable despite being clearly insane towards the end.

    Then there are the kind of characters who are so evil to the point it becomes comical and are likeable for such a reason because a villains, they are simply just truly entertaining. It's like Dr. Evil in Austin Powers. Kefka from Final Fantasy VI is probably such an example who is often mentioned as one of the best villains along with Sepiroth in the Final Fantasy-verse. Snape as you say, was more of an anti-villain.

    The problem when we speak of character development for the primary antagonist is that in order for the antagonist to remain an antagonist, the antagonist cannot change. If the antagonist changes to such a degree that he, because it is often a he that we speak about here, becomes relateable in the sense of actually appearing human, he is no longer the antagonist. Imagine if a lot of time was spent in Lord of the Rings trying to explain Sauron's motives and he is really just a lonely person who became insane and corrupt by power. Despite doing such ill, would we truly think of him as an antagonist? A good example from the same universe is Gollum who to some degree due to his character development, becomes someone the audience can sympathize with. He thus stops becoming an antagonist but rather an anti-villain just like Snape because Gollum is clearly simply a victim of circumstance.

    Personally though in my opinion, the best villains and antagonists are those heroes turned antagonists. At least to me, the development feels realistic and natural. The actions we choose to take and the consequences of them will change the outcome of our loyalties. I think there's a reason why the archetype I am going to refer to as the rival is so popular. The rival is often indeed a rival to the hero. He is better than him, more talented and more intelligent. The hero always struggles to not be outshone. If he didn't there would be no rivalry. A common twist to the rival archetype is when the rival betrays the hero's friendship or becomes the hero's ally. In the Harry Potter universe, the rival archetype is clearly depicted in Draco Malfoy. It is however not Draco I am thinking of here when I think of an extremely good example of a well-developed rival archetype character. Instead I am thinking of Uchiha Sasuke in Naruto and how Sasuke was initially set out to be Naruto's rival but they later become friends. However, Sasuke seeking revenge over what happened towards his family and his clan betrays Naruto and joins the evil forces. Perhaps one of the more climactic portions of the story in Naruto is the development between the increased animosity between Naruto and Sasuke and Sasuke is I should add, an immensely popular character. Something which cannot be said about Draco Malfoy (in actuality though, I think aside Snape, I am not sure there is any such popular character to compare to simply because I have to say, Rowling's characterization is not that good as a whole). I think a similar character with similar development that I just thought of is Vegeta from the Dragonball series who was first set out to be the primary antagonist in the original Dragonball. Then he became an evil rival in Dragonball Z to finally join the forces with the heroes after being defeated. Vegeta is also an immensely popular character in the Dragonball-verse.

    Another great example of a villain of this type Aizen Sosuke in Bleach who in the first arc was depicted as being allied with the protagonists. He is however later found to murdered, but as the story progresses, it turns out that Aizen simply staged his own murder and he is in fact well and alive and he is the main antagonist of the series. Even though Kubo Tite established Aizen quite early as the antagonist (Bleach is running its 12th year now), he did not stop develop Aizen as a character although there is an equal amount of mystery surrounding his persona. However, in the series thus far primary climax, Kubo Tite decides to make Aizen appear as simply being lonely and misunderstood. He stops being a villain. This is further reinforced because the primary protagonist, Ichigo, sympathizes with Aizen and his actions. The reason why I think Aizen is thus a great villain is simply because we can sympathize with him. I think this is in general one of Kubo Tite's trademarks in writing in that he is very keen on establishing his villains as having very human motives and flaws. However, as is expected when the villain stops being a villain, Kubo Tite had to introduce a new one so he did. Then he pulled the same card on us with Ginjo Kuugo and it is now strongly suggested that Ginjo is in fact going to join the main supporting cast.

    So Kub is stuck creating yet another villain who is yet to be truly revealed because I like many others, do not believe that Juha Bach is the final villain of the series. I wouldn't surprise me at all if Kubo is going to pull the "he is simply lonely and misunderstood" card on Juha Bach too when the time is nigh. But anyway, for most of the part, turning the primary villain into a non-villain is not the end of the world if the story is ending at this point anyway. It only becomes a problem if the story is going to continue beyond this point. It is however important to note that prior to the point where Aizen became a non-villain, he received little to no character development. He was simply the spider pulling the strings behind the scenes but we saw and heard little of his actual character. Instead what we were presented were often the result of his decisions and actions. It was only when Kubo was nearing the climax of the Karakura Town arc that he began truly developing Aizen, first by giving us the Turn Back the Pendulum mini-arc which is akin to the Half-Blood Prince in the Harry Potter series, later simply making most of the Karakura Town battle actually being about Aizen's character.

    As I noted, a similar development can be discerned in Harry Potter. It was only in the Half-Blood Prince that Voldemort was really fleshed out as a character. I think Rowling's main mistake with the Half-Blood Prince except overall just being a very butchered and rushed book is that the star of the story was actually Snape, he is the half-blood prince, not Voldemort/Tom Riddle. She should have decided her primary focus. Is the book about Snape or Voldemort? But I disgress and you get my point.

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  8. #128
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    This is an excellent point.

    What do you think an 8 would do in that situation? I'd want to say they'd seek vengeance for the murder of their family. But, that would be the makings of a villain. 8s can be heroes too, right? I'd say a heroic 8 would still cry when looking in the mirror and seeing their dead family members who were unjustly killed. However, the next point is good: that his answer to this is to seek a security net of people. I do wonder, though, if a kid is that young, and finds a family that will accept him, if he'd go with it. For instance, I know someone who I'm quite sure is an 8 - he's classic - and stayed with my family for a while when he was young because his own family was not working out so well. He seeks autonomy, travels on his own all the time, won't settle down, etc, and always had a very independent/ autonomous/ anti-family unit mindset, but he still enjoyed the comfort and love of a new family. The Weasley issue doesn't necessarily seem incongruent. In that situation, who wouldn't feel better having a family who loves them? What, in the makeup of an 8, would cause them to necessarily reject that? I wanted to move out of my house when I was 16, and ran away all the time as a kid, but I knew I could come back. If I had no place to go at the tender age of 11, and existed in a world of magic where my survival was at stake, I can't guarantee I wouldn't take up an offer from a kind , generous family to take care of me, even if I wouldn't look to them for opinions on what I should do with my life, etc. It's a matter of survival really. (Although, if he's an 8, it does make a lot less sense that he didn't run away from his aunt and uncle when he was young.)
    I'm not really sure what an 8 would do. It all comes down to motivations I suppose. Two different types will do the same thing for different reasons. Harry doesn't attach himself to the Weasleys for survival reasons. He attaches himself to them because of the friendship, acceptance, and belonging that he's always longed for.

    However, it's not necessarily incongruent with 8, because I do think Harry has a 8-fix, but rather that it's more likely fed through a 6-core. Harry does run away from the Dursleys, once, in book 3, after he reached the end of his tolerance with Aunt Marjorie. And also in book 3, when Harry thinks Sirius betrayed his family, Harry has thoughts of vengeance, but ultimately doesn't go through with it. He sticks to his principles, and he spares Peter Pettigrew's life. This is not to say that 8s don't forgive or have no restraint, of course! It's very 6-8 here for Harry to stick by what he believes is right.


    However, this point is an irrefutable one:

    You're right here. He did it alone because he didn't want any of his friends to die because of him. However the other list of authorities that you mention here, who he leaned on for support (outside of simply, survival) is definitely more authorities than an 8 would bother with.

    Making an alliance with Dumbledore is intelligent: it's a matter of having power in the school. If you have the most powerful person in your back pocket you have more power. Bingo. Some people would say this is 3-like thinking, but I think if Corporate CEO is a stereotype for 8s, too, then 8s must also know how to climb up the ladder. I'd agree, though, that Harry's particular method of suckuppery is a tad un-iddish, but it still *could* fall into the category of survival mechanisms, or gaining power, as a behavior (but you're right to point out, the motives are probably different). Living with the Weasleys could be seen as an act of seeking survival opportunities. However Lupin, Sirius, etc; unnecessary. Still, having allies does give a person more power. But the reasons are what we'd be looking at, in terms of enneagram. I can buy your argument that he did this because he is seeking a new 'family structure.' It does make more sense, with his character, than doing it because it's pragmatic. He gets very attached to these people and their place in his life. He goes to them for advice regularly.
    The bold sounds like something that Tom Riddle/Voldemort did, not Harry. The books follow Harry's POV and thought process, and he just doesn't think in these terms of gaining power.

    Harry obviously wants to be given more control and responsibilities though, because he's proven that he can handle it. I think this is indicative of a 8-fix.

    Him not believing he's a hero is a key point you made here. I didn't think of that before when I posted (like I said, I didn't think it through, and it's been a while since I watched/ read the books) ... but you're right, the size of his ego is un-8ish. An 8 would probably feel right at home with that power, deep down, even if he didn't boast; but boasting would be inevitable as well, when he's less healthy. In fact, when I read the book, I remember thinking, "He's so badass, why is it so hard for him to think of himself as a hero?" Admirable modesty.

    The circular thinking and doubting of his own mind - another good point, and something I'd forgotten from the book.
    Can you pinpoint a disintegration to 3 and integration to 9?
    Yes exactly. As for disintegration/integration, I can't think of anything right now. I'll get back to you on that one.

    Savior/white knight complex - is this necessarily incongruent with an 8?
    8s think of themselves as magnanimous. Usually more of a 'dark, independent' knight mentality, but still, any 8 will convince himself or herself that they save the innocent, etc.
    No, not necessarily incongruent with 8. I just see his motivations stemming more from superego. I don't really view core-8s as white knights. Like my dad, the SP8. He looks out for me, but moreso by teaching me to look out for myself. But, as we've talked about, my dad loves to help people too. He's 862, and I think Harry is probably 682 (maybe 684, but I really am skeptical about a 4-fix for him).

    LOL. Where do you get all those commands?
    Under the emoticons on the right, there is a hyperlink that says [more]. Click and enjoy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    @madhatter

    I just got home (I wrote that post at a mac store!) and the whole ride home, I was thinking about this discussion. I think it finally kicked in what "Cp-6" actually means. I've been trying to wrap my head around it since I first encountered enneagram. Thanks, because now I know what angles to use to invade the 6 forum and figure out even more! =) This was a great discussion and shed light on this topic for me.
    You're welcome! Sorry it took me a bit to respond. I'm actually at work, and I've been picking away at this post.

    I love talking about books and characters that I love. :P Let's talk some more.

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    @madhatter, what are you reasons for Harry being 2-fixed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by LeaT View Post
    madhatter, what are you reasons for Harry being 2-fixed?
    I am not as sure of the 2-fix as I am of the other two. Essentially, at this point, I'm saying 2-fix, because I don't see much evidence for a heart fix at all, so it makes sense it would be his last fix. He could have a 4-fix, but I am going have to be convinced of that. So, it's more of an impression and subject to change with further though, but I'll try to deconstruct what I'm thinking now.

    Take for instance, in book 2, when Harry's not getting any letters or news from his Hogwarts life. He bemoans the fact they're ignoring him and doing stuff without him, after all he did for them, after he saved their life at the end of book 1. This "after all I did for them" attitude, strikes me as very 2-ish. To me, this comes off as 2-fix. Also, Harry in his unhealthy stages has no trouble guilt-tripping Ron and Hermione, like in book 5, again when Harry has been kept out of the loop. This also comes across as 2-fix to me. My mom is core-2 and my dad has a 2-fix, and I have received the guilt trip from both of them a time or two (actually a lot of times, but that requires a book in itself lol).

    Also, Harry spent his formative years essentially being told he was not good enough. He was not worthy of love or special attention. He can't do anything right in the Dursleys' eyes. And Harry accepts this. I don't think he reacted to it all as a 4-fixer might (although granted, I am a self-professed 4 ignoramus). He thinks he's not good enough or deserving enough. Like when he gets special attention from Hagrid at first on his 11th birthday, there is still a part of him that is surprised about at all, the "oh, you really didn't need to do this", part genuine humility, part pride, that I have come to associate with 2. He does that with Mrs. Weasley as well.

    Harry is not concerned with being or appearing the best as a 3-fixer would, nor does he compartmentalize his emotions. Nor does he seem overly concerning with uniqueness, or being separate and forming his own unique identity, as a 4-fixer. He is concerned with authenticity and integrity, but I think these stem from other areas. He does put on what a core-2 I know calls "masks". He'll put on a mask when he doesn't want to emotionally revealing, or burden others with his emotional problems. Like lying to Lupin saying everything is okay when everything obviously is not, putting on a positive mask. He doesn't do this to the extent that the IRL core-2 does, but it is only a fix. But the core-2 I know is a terrible liar, and I easily see through the masks. She really wears her heart on her sleeve, and I think Harry does too.

    Anyway, my arguments are not as solid for the heart-fix as they were for 6, but I think part of that is Harry just doesn't have core heart-triad issues. I really had to wrack my brain for examples in the book that point to a heart-fix at all, let alone differentiating it, haha.

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