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  1. #111
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    I personally like villains with substance. I love the Harry Potter series, and also LOTR and Star Wars, but I think out of all the series, Star Wars has the closest thing to good villains, and even though episodes 4, 5, and 6 are so much better, the content of the villains' characters is more laid out in episodes 1, 2, and 3. I know the acting is terrible and the CGI is overdone, but the idea of Annikin and his personal struggle is more relatable. I'd prefer to have villains who are human, who have vulnerabilities and specific motives; something that would line up with an enneagram type. That's why, although I find Harry Potter to be an amazing series, and JK Rowling so inspiring, the villain is disappointing.

    The only thing that makes him even remotely human is seeing that he's abused as a kid, but that is just SO typical. And even as a kid he's a pure sociopath. I'd like a villain with fully developed frontal lobes, and a serious internal conflict, thankuverymuch. Someone who I kind of want to have wild sex with, but kind of want to kill. I want to feel that conflict inside of myself; I want to taste my own need for revenge; I want to feel my own powerlust and anger and disappointment and fear coursing through my veins when a villain starts to lose his mind and slowly transition from a passionate kid to an off-the-hook psycho. I want to FEEL it. I want to wish I could save him. I want to feel strong because I saved myself, by contrast. I want to wonder whether I really did save myself. This is what would make a great villain, to me.

    Top notch villains:
    The Phantom in Phantom of the Opera.
    Severus Snape.

    even Draco Malfoy is a decently sympathetic "villain." Better than Voldemort. Voldemort is so unreal that I can't even hate him. I just want to laugh in his weird face.

    Very eloquent. Yeah, I get what you are saying. Yet Heath Ledger's joker was amazing. I think he's one of my favorite villains. Also, Hannibal Lecter might be my all time favorite, though he fell sort of in between the villain and hero, which might have been in part be what made his character so enthralling.

    I still think that is more about character development and less about type. If anything, a deranged individual who can go either way, would in actuality have good development of all his functions, having been thrust up close and personal with each of them in times of trauma.
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  2. #112
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Very eloquent. Yeah, I get what you are saying. Yet Heath Ledger's joker was amazing. I think he's one of my favorite villains. Also, Hannibal Lecter might be my all time favorite, though he fell sort of in between the villain and hero, which might have been in part be what made his character so enthralling.
    Haha, yes - the joker and Lechter were both amazing!

    I still think that is more about character development and less about type. If anything, a deranged individual who can go either way, would in actuality have good development of all his functions, having been thrust up close and personal with each of them in times of trauma.
    This is a very good take on things. I'm writing a novel and I have kind of an "over-developed" lovable super-villain, and I've been stressing because I don't know what his core is. There is a strong argument for a few possibilities, which makes me wonder: is he realistic? But you're right in a sense. There has to be more relatability than would apply to just one type. For instance, Harry Potter may very well be a 9w8, but 6's, 8s, 5s, and other can relate in a very personal way to his behavior and motives. So having a character who is less "archetypal" in terms of enneagram, may lead to something that more people can relate to.
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  3. #113
    failure to thrive AphroditeGoneAwry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    Haha, yes - the joker and Lechter were both amazing!


    This is a very good take on things. I'm writing a novel and I have kind of an "over-developed" lovable super-villain, and I've been stressing because I don't know what his core is. There is a strong argument for a few possibilities, which makes me wonder: is he realistic? But you're right in a sense. There has to be more relatability than would apply to just one type. For instance, Harry Potter may very well be a 9w8, but 6's, 8s, 5s, and other can relate in a very personal way to his behavior and motives. So having a character who is less "archetypal" in terms of enneagram, may lead to something that more people can relate to.
    Exactly. This same discussion came up about bond with Mane and I--that heroes are an enigma and are oftentimes difficult to type, because if they were easy to type, they wouldn't be so special.

    I'd think you'd want your character to have a strong core, development-wise, meaning a strong character that operates within a certain range of psycho behavior (if he's too random, he won't be understandable or relateable), but good at everything (xxxx) so he is above most people, so they can admire his abilities even whilst hating his behavior; they can understand his modus operandi, yet hate him for it.

    Cool that you are writing a book!
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  4. #114
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AphroditeGoneAwry View Post
    Exactly. This same discussion came up about bond with Mane and I--that heroes are an enigma and are oftentimes difficult to type, because if they were easy to type, they wouldn't be so special.
    Yes!
    I'm also a fan of the "unsuspecting hero" - sort of like Frodo Baggins, except I'd want my heroes to have more of a dark side .. I love thrusting characters with the most unsuspecting qualities into really tough situations and making them squirm, and then triumph over that adversity. I love personal growth, too.

    I'd think you'd want your character to have a strong core, development-wise, meaning a strong character that operates within a certain range of psycho behavior (if he's too random, he won't be understandable or relateable), but good at everything (xxxx) so he is above most people, so they can admire his abilities even whilst hating his behavior; they can understand his modus operandi, yet hate him for it.

    Cool that you are writing a book!
    This is pretty much how he is. =,) (That makes me happy.. haha!) It's just, I guess the particular behavior and quirk-set could be attributed to a few cores. It makes me feel a bit better that I have his tritype down, quite clearly.

    I'm very obsessive about my characters and plot, and all the background stuff. I'm not amazing at the craft of writing but I'd hand it over to an editor at that phase. I actually came to study enneagram and MBTI for this reason - to get a different perspective on people which can help me to understand my characters even more. Of course, I would never write a character on that basis; I'd let them develop naturally, and use these systems to evaluate them for my own further understanding during the editing phase.

    Sometimes, though, I wonder if it's more of a hindrance than a help.
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  5. #115
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Also, @AphroditeGoneAwry - I would say the characters whose struggles I relate to most, in fiction that most people would know about, are, in this order:

    Annikin Skywalker
    Phantom from Phantom of the Opera
    Harry Potter


    I don't think there are any really relatable characters in LOTR, though Aragorn is sexy.
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  6. #116
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    To the general discussion: I think that Harry is a core-6, granted with a 8-fix, but a core-6 nonetheless. I don't believe that the core motivations are there to justify 8 as a core. Speaking about the anger that is ever-present in book 5, anger does not automatically equal gut type. I personally think that he had untreated PTSD, which would explain a lot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    That's why, although I find Harry Potter to be an amazing series, and JK Rowling so inspiring, the villain is disappointing.

    The only thing that makes him even remotely human is seeing that he's abused as a kid, but that is just SO typical. And even as a kid he's a pure sociopath. I'd like a villain with fully developed frontal lobes, and a serious internal conflict, thankuverymuch. Someone who I kind of want to have wild sex with, but kind of want to kill. I want to feel that conflict inside of myself; I want to taste my own need for revenge; I want to feel my own powerlust and anger and disappointment and fear coursing through my veins when a villain starts to lose his mind and slowly transition from a passionate kid to an off-the-hook psycho. I want to FEEL it. I want to wish I could shake him and set him straight. I want to feel strong because I saved myself, by contrast. I want to wonder whether I really did save myself. This is what would make a great villain, to me.

    Top notch villain:
    The Phantom in Phantom of the Opera.

    Severus Snape is a good anti-hero. Even Draco Malfoy is a decently sympathetic "villain." Better than Voldemort. Voldemort is so unreal that I can't even hate him. I just want to laugh in his weird face.
    I agree that Voldemort is very hard to type, to the point where he might be untypeable. Also, if he is a sociopath, then that makes him even harder to type. But let's break down what we know about him. He was obsessed with power, yes, but also, he was obsessed with hidden and forbidden knowledge, and ancient and dark magic. This obsession for knowledge points to a 5-fix, perhaps (unhealthy). Also, what do we know about Tom Riddle? A very charming model student, who had all the teachers and students wrapped around his little finger. But no one knew the true Tom Riddle or saw through the masks (except Dumbledore). He could manipulate almost anyone. Also, he removed anyone who got in this way, with a brutal efficiency. I think this points to a 3-fix (unhealthy). I'm not sure about a gut-fix for him...definitely not 9 lol. Possibly a 8. From the books, Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort always wanted to do everything on his own, and unlike Harry, Voldemort never sought to make connections, preferring to rely on himself.

    So I see Voldemort/Tom Riddle maybe core-3 (3w2) 8w? 5w4, or maybe 8w? 3w2 5w4.

    (And yes, as I deconstruct this, I have deconstructed my own tritype as Voldemort's, lol. Completely unintentional I assure you.)

  7. #117
    Blood of the Exile Animal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post
    To the general discussion: I think that Harry is a core-6, granted with a 8-fix, but a core-6 nonetheless. I don't believe that the core motivations are there to justify 8 as a core. Speaking about the anger that is ever-present in book 5, anger does not automatically equal gut type. I personally think that he had untreated PTSD, which would explain a lot.
    In what ways would you justify 6-core? Curious.

    It's not because of the anger, by the way, that my logic went from 6w5 to 8w9 and then stuck with 8w9 until someone else made a good argument against it. I know that every type can be angry. Everyone has one gut fix or another. It's the idea of the world being a cruel place and him having to look out for himself that I was thinking about, though I will admit it wasn't well thought out. I'm still curious to hear other ideas.

    What do you make of 9w8 for his core? Some people on this thread are arguing for it.

    I agree that Voldemort is very hard to type, to the point where he might be untypeable. Also, if he is a sociopath, then that makes him even harder to type. But let's break down what we know about him. He was obsessed with power, yes, but also, he was obsessed with hidden and forbidden knowledge, and ancient and dark magic. This obsession for knowledge points to a 5-fix, perhaps (unhealthy). Also, what do we know about Tom Riddle? A very charming model student, who had all the teachers and students wrapped around his little finger. But no one knew the true Tom Riddle or saw through the masks (except Dumbledore). He could manipulate almost anyone. Also, he removed anyone who got in this way, with a brutal efficiency. I think this points to a 3-fix (unhealthy). I'm not sure about a gut-fix for him...definitely not 9 lol. Possibly a 8. From the books, Dumbledore told Harry that Voldemort always wanted to do everything on his own, and unlike Harry, Voldemort never sought to make connections, preferring to rely on himself.

    So I see Voldemort/Tom Riddle maybe core-3 (3w2) 8w? 5w4, or maybe 8w? 3w2 5w4.

    (And yes, as I deconstruct this, I have deconstructed my own tritype as Voldemort's, lol. Completely unintentional I assure you.)
    Muahahaha.

    Yours is easily the most villainous tritype, m'lady.
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  8. #118
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maybe View Post
    In what ways would you justify 6-core? Curious.
    A few things:

    What is the one thing that Harry desires more than anything? A family. A security net of people, which for the longest time, he never had himself, and in which he finds it with the Weasleys, and continues to build. It's something he's always seeking. He's seeking guidance from authority figures, or maybe trying to replace parental figures, throughout all the 7 books - Mr. and Mrs. Weasley, Dumbledore, Lupin, Sirius. I don't see the go-it-alone, I-don't-need-anybody mentality in Harry. In the end of book 7, he does "go-it-alone" to face Voldemort, but the reasons why he does that are coming from a different place than a need for autonomy and control.

    I do think that Harry is CP6. One, his fear is not overtly present in his thought processes, the fact of the matter is he is still motivated by it. He fears losing the new life that he loves, Hogwarts and his friends. Also, Harry doubts and questions himself all the time, doubts his own mind, and exhibits circular 6-ish thinking. He does not think he's the hero that everyone says he is. This label that everyone thrusts on him never truly goes to his head. Two, he doesn't avoid his fears; he faces them head on, in true counterphobic fashion. Also, his rule-breaking and his questioning of authority that he doesn't agree with, which he sees as unfair, like with Snape. Harry does not blindly accept authority. And although 6s do not have a monopoly on loyalty, Harry is completely loyal to his friends, the Weasleys and Dumbledore. Granted, he wavers and questions that, especially when his expectations and illusions of Dumbledore are broken and challenged, but even then he's still loyal to Dumbledore...Dumbledore's man to the last.

    His actions are also ruled by superego. He acts to make things right or to help people. He's courageous, but he's got a huge savior/white knight complex. (This is may indicate a 2-fix as well, although I haven't quite pinned this aspect of him.)

    Muahahaha.

    Yours is easily the most villainous tritype, m'lady.
    World dominating 358s unite!!!

    I can't help that I'm awesome.

  9. #119
    The High Priestess Amargith's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madhatter View Post

    World dominating 358s unite!!!

    I can't help that I'm awesome.

    Oh god. I have one of you guys at home
    ★ڿڰۣ✿ℒoѵℯ✿ڿڰۣ★





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  10. #120
    Senior Member madhatter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amargith View Post
    Oh god. I have one of you guys at home
    Duh-duh-dah!!!!!


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