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  1. #51
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Possible Correlations (not in order of strength):

    Type 1 -> , ,
    Type 2 -> ,
    Type 3 -> ,
    Type 4 -> ,
    Type 5 -> ,
    Type 6 -> +, ~
    Type 7 -> ,
    Type 8 -> , , ~
    Type 9 -> ,

    Sub-divisions:

    Temperament Correlations:

    Type 1 -> Introverted Rationality
    Type 2 -> Extroverted Rationality
    Type 3 -> Extroverted Rationality
    Type 7 -> Extroverted Irrationality
    Type 9 -> Introverted Irrationality

    Dichotomous Correlations:

    Type 4 -> Introtim, Intuitive, Ethics
    Type 5 ->Introtim, Intuitive, Logics
    Type 8 -> Extrotim, Logics

    For those seeking symmetry:
    [Type 2 -> Extrotim, Ethics]


    Other Correlations:

    Type 6 -> Beta Quadra, Vulnerable, less likely Vulnerable, +.


    Sidenote:

    Correlations do not allow you to simply determine a person's enneatype based on their preferences for information elements. Just as information element preferences are determined by the psyche's semantic (perhaps even subconscious) labeling of information, so are enneatypes. A Type 8 is not always a -valuing type, though probabilities favor it. To some, the fixations of Type 8 might more resonate with the semantic labeling of , or with , or even or . It is all up to the individual. Information elements and Enneatypes do not exist outside the mind -- they are not set in stone. Everything is dependent upon how the mind processes and reacts to different sorts of information, to different sorts of situations.
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  2. #52
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    This has been done to death already, both by Riso & Hudson and Naranjo and I bet other enneagram authors, and I knee-jerk against it because I think when authors do this, the fundamental error they do is that they focus on the prescriptive behaviors of the cognitive types rather than the actual underlying worldview that defines the type. It's like saying SLE descriptions in socionics means every SLE is an 8 because they sound alike. People confuse that when authors make behavioral descriptions of a type, that it will be conflated with other aspects of the person's personality that may not be strictly related to cognition and vice versa for motivation. I have gathered some data where I've compiled what types people are between the enneagram and their cognition in that I only use people whose cognition and enneagram I'm quite sure of is correct. This data does seem to point somewhat favorably towards that there are certain common correlations, but the data is also woefully incomplete and this may entirely change once a large enough sample size is acquired.

    The tl;dr is that one should take these associations and connections with a big bunch grain of salt. I also see that Si types got a greater tendency to want to make these associations (Si notes behavioral similarities due to how Si is attuned to physical archetypal content and Ne wants to see the connections between two unrelated phenomena) than Ni does, and suffice to say, I don't see the similarity or why it needs to be done. They both deal with personality and they both deal with specific worldviews and information bias of the personality and while these may interplay in complex ways, they are also in many ways, extremely unrelated. Correlation does not equal causation.

    I also think that people do this because their understanding of the enneagram system (it's usually the enneagram, because people don't have much ready access to, nor are self-aware enough to understand how deep the system can be/is) is incomplete and lacking. When you understand your spiritual motivation as defined to be a certain type, you begin to realize how these correlations become very null. I've run across a couple of INTJ type 2s, a combination that is deemed incompatible. I think it's actually far more common than what people believe, just that INTJs tend to often mistype as 5 or 9. Same thing goes with Fe dom and type 4.

    People think that since type 4 is described to be an "introverted type" and Fe doms are described to be "extroverted", Fe doms can't be 4s. On the contrary lol. I think A LOT of Fe doms are 4s but mistype as other types either because they are 4s (think they are Fi types or alternatively, that they are INFJs) and when one in particular considers the socionics definition of Fe which I agree with more than its MBTI counterpart, it actually makes a lot of damn fucking sense. Fe is defined as controlling the emotional environment and the Fe dom in particular enjoys a constant passionate outpouring of emotion. There doesn't have to be a correlation between Fe and 2. There are also plenty of Fe dom type 3s which again makes sense, because Fe types adapt their emotional expressions in order to manipulate the environment and present a persona that is deemed as more appropriate in any given social situation. And since Fe is so focused on the outwards expression both of the self and that of others, you can lose sight of what goes on internally. And that's just two examples of how Fe can play out in an Fe dom that is not a 2.

    This is why I don't buy into these correlations as having much meaning because all it ends up doing is that people think, there's a correlation between Fi dom and type 4, it means that if you type as anything else the chance of being a 4 or an Fi dom may be wrong. It's a good logical reason in order to consider one's typings, but the stereotype isn't really helping people in figuring out who they truly are either, if people feel held back because they don't fit the mold of what something is, like my INTJ 2w1 friend who typed as a 9 for over a year because he didn't feel he fit the type 2 stereotypes. It was only after deep introspection and increased self-awareness that he could see how he was actually a 2.

    So self-awareness, especially with the enneagram, is the key. This is all what the enneagram is about. Once you gain experiential understanding of being a certain type, you can begin to understand the power the enneagram actually has a self-actualization tool.

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  3. #53
    alchemist Legion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    1: J
    2: EF
    3: E
    4: IF
    5: IT
    6: Can be any type
    7: E
    8: ET
    9: I
    This is almost exactly how I draw it up o.O except I use P/EP for 7

  4. #54
    untitled Chanaynay's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I noticed the slight, and won't forget.

    I stand by what I've posted about E6 here, and in other threads. Nobody has provided any evidence for a correlation with SJs, and I can show you charts from the forum that back me up. There is a problem with NFs in particular refusing to type themselves as 6s due to the terrible descriptions you find on the net.
    I doubt there are many ESTJ 6s out there and I'm sure ESFJs are more likely to be 2, but I'm definitely sure 6 trends among ISFJ and ISTJ. In Zara's chart it's actually the highest ranking e-type for both of them. I'd say for ISFJ the most likely types for them are 2, 6, and 9 and for ISTJ I'd say 1, 5, and 6. I'd also say someone like George O'Malley from Grey's Anatomy seems like the archetypal ISFJ and the archetypal 6 - not to claim that's proof of the correlation but I can't see how anyone can't see the common trend of 6 in (realtime) ISJs.

    I don't really get what you said about NFs but the whole "you're secretly a mistyped 6" fiasco is something I'd rather not get back into. It's a topic that's been beaten into the ground way too much around here.
    7w6 - 2w3 - 8w7 sx/so

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  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Legion View Post
    This is almost exactly how I draw it up o.O except I use P/EP for 7
    Yes, I agree I missed that.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kullervo View Post
    I noticed the slight, and won't forget.

    I stand by what I've posted about E6 here, and in other threads. Nobody has provided any evidence for a correlation with SJs, and I can show you charts from the forum that back me up. There is a problem with NFs in particular refusing to type themselves as 6s due to the terrible descriptions you find on the net.
    I always thought the SJ stereotypes in general were bullshit because 1) if intuitives are divided by T/F, sensors should also be divided by T/F, not J/P, and 2) a lot of the "stupidity," "simplicity," "conformity," and "emphatic over-emotionalism" that Intuitive Introverts associate with SJs and Sensors in general seem, to me, to better match the description of Extroverted Sensing than anything.

    On the other hand, it's funny how people used to retype Eights as Sixes because they back down from conflict when it's appropriate, they're unsure about one minor decision, or they don't come across as "badass" enough. By this logic, all these super-assertive traits that these people show that are normally attributed to Eights would also have to be attributed to Sixes, which means Six is a severely underrated type. There's a lot of sites where people who seem to fit a "warrior" archetype are pidgeonholed into Six because they're "aggressive," then they act as if Eights don't exist and no one on the site is typed as Eight.




    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    Type 6 -> +, ~
    Type 6 -> Beta Quadra, Vulnerable, less likely Vulnerable, +.
    Wow, Six is Beta Quadra. The complete opposite of what people stereotypically associate it with. Who'd've thought.




    Quote Originally Posted by Chanaynay View Post
    I doubt there are many ESTJ 6s out there and I'm sure ESFJs are more likely to be 2, but I'm definitely sure 6 trends among ISFJ and ISTJ. In Zara's chart it's actually the highest ranking e-type for both of them. I'd say for ISFJ the most likely types for them are 2, 6, and 9 and for ISTJ I'd say 1, 5, and 6. I'd also say someone like George O'Malley from Grey's Anatomy seems like the archetypal ISFJ and the archetypal 6 - not to claim that's proof of the correlation but I can't see how anyone can't see the common trend of 6 in (realtime) ISJs.

    I don't really get what you said about NFs but the whole "you're secretly a mistyped 6" fiasco is something I'd rather not get back into. It's a topic that's been beaten into the ground way too much around here.
    I suspect a lot of Gamma NTs are Sixes. Some amateur typists who self-type as INTJs still have that "NT Ubermensch" circlejerk going on and it reeks of Six to me.
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  7. #57
    Senior Member Alea_iacta_est's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Wow, Six is Beta Quadra. The complete opposite of what people stereotypically associate it with. Who'd've thought.
    What is the stereotype, then?

    Beta Quadra possesses many of the elements that would provide the ingredients for a Type Six, including but not limited to the positional hierarchy created by having blocked with , producing the quadra with the most rigid "chain of command" and distinct placements within a group or multiple groups. It features an aversion to Extroverted Irrationality in the form of , an avoidance of unpredictable situations with multiple variables and undefined, raw potential to develop into anything at a moment's notice, with a simultaneous appreciation for guidance, foresight, and a defined future/path as provided by those who favor . Type Six is almost always afraid of what they cannot predict, what is not certain or identified easily and quickly, as that is the incarnation of chaos, and chaos can lead to a breach of security. Alternatively, Type Six seeks guidance, and, in some cases, authority to help them understand what's what in the world, so that they can feel safe without worrying about what might be, or what could be -- what possible negative outcomes there might be awaiting just around the corner that could shatter the Six's idea of reality and his own safety.

    If I were to stereotype the Six into only one typological profile, I would undoubtedly point you to the LSI. That being said, however, correlations are merely heuristics that help us assess the probabilities that a person belongs to a type or a group of typings, and, ultimately, everything comes down to an individual's semantic assessments of the world.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alea_iacta_est View Post
    What is the stereotype, then?

    Beta Quadra possesses many of the elements that would provide the ingredients for a Type Six, including but not limited to the positional hierarchy created by having blocked with , producing the quadra with the most rigid "chain of command" and distinct placements within a group or multiple groups. It features an aversion to Extroverted Irrationality in the form of , an avoidance of unpredictable situations with multiple variables and undefined, raw potential to develop into anything at a moment's notice, with a simultaneous appreciation for guidance, foresight, and a defined future/path as provided by those who favor . Type Six is almost always afraid of what they cannot predict, what is not certain or identified easily and quickly, as that is the incarnation of chaos, and chaos can lead to a breach of security. Alternatively, Type Six seeks guidance, and, in some cases, authority to help them understand what's what in the world, so that they can feel safe without worrying about what might be, or what could be -- what possible negative outcomes there might be awaiting just around the corner that could shatter the Six's idea of reality and his own safety.

    If I were to stereotype the Six into only one typological profile, I would undoubtedly point you to the LSI. That being said, however, correlations are merely heuristics that help us assess the probabilities that a person belongs to a type or a group of typings, and, ultimately, everything comes down to an individual's semantic assessments of the world.
    It's really stupid, thoughtless stereotypes, really. Example: "Beta Quadra is fun. Beta Quadra is cool. Beta is crazy impulsive and loud and Beta brings the action."

    "Six is a conformist. Six is a slave. Six never does anything fun. Six is always planning things and never doing them."


    Stereotypes that spawn from things like focusing on Six's need for security while completely ignoring its erratic, impulsive behavior in times of distress. Misunderstanding Se, associating it with magical fiery explosions while ignoring the disciplined tendencies it can create. They're not nearly accurate, they're cliches, making huge leaps in logic and leaving out large pieces of important data while centering around only certain traits they choose to focus on.
    I don't agree with them and I don't even understand them very well.



    Though, on another note, you could just as easily associate Six with Delta because it's expressly stated as the Quadra of Stability in quadra progression. That, to me, is the biggest and most plausible argument.
    But, I don't even believe in any Enneagram-MBTI correlation anyhow.
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  9. #59
    Senior Member Entropic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cygnus View Post
    Some amateur typists who self-type as INTJs still have that "NT Ubermensch" circlejerk going on and it reeks of Six to me.
    Why? Why must this behavior be 6ish?

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  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Entropic View Post
    Why? Why must this behavior be 6ish?
    It's mainly on PerC.


    Example: "My mom's a ESFJ and she shoves bibles and hamburgers up my ass. I hate ESFPs and ESFJs. I'm going to blame all my problems on Sensors and Feelers and bitch about how my type is the Master Race and should rule the world even though all my grades are shit and no one likes me because I'm an arrogant douchebag. Alexander the Great was an INTJ. Leonardo DiCaprio is an INTJ. Everyone significant in history was an INTJ and every other type is an idiot that sucks at life. We're better than everyone. We're going to drive all the inferior types into the sea. Hitler was an ESFP because ESFPs are evil. I'm yelling at the top of my voice about bullshit and emotional projection because INTJs are logical gods and everyone else is an emotional jerk. I'm such a special snowflake."


    That's not nearly a majority of the real INTJs on the internet, it's just some INTJs on MBTI sites and a few other people who are mistyped and in denial. It's bullshit, it's arrogant, and it's obnoxious.

    It's Six-like because it's basically developing an overinflated sense of superiority (disintegration into 3), and it's planning revenge through fantastical possibilities (6-like overthinking and speculation) as a fear-reaction to a perception of chronic mistreatment (6 counterphobia). It's rationalizing feelings of inferiority and using conspiracy-theory mentality to make sense of it and poise yourself as the "hero."
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