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  1. #11
    Ruler of the Stars Asterion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post


    That is an odd question to me; my entire spirituality in life has always been intertwined with psychological growth, so I did not realize others might not see it that way. It's all about becoming more who you are (self-actualization) and having the healthiest and most productive interactions with other people (behavior) in order for everyone to be most fulfilled. Jung was a good mesh of spirituality and psychology himself.

    The Enneagram directions of (dis)integration seem to be very much a spiritual journey, in terms of self-improvement and the process of personal and interpersonal actualization.
    I think it's that I've just associated spirituality with make believe... you know... spirits? lol. But after looking it all up, spirituality is more about the intangible, and involves introspection, thoughts, beliefs and contemplation. I can definitely see how this all fits in with MBTI and the enneagram.

    Even the diagram itself is Sufi in origin, isn't it?
    Yeah, but they seemed a little uncertain when they stated that, I can't remember. It seems to have come from all sorts of different places, I remember reading somewhere that it originated at around 2500 BC, and that it was also used by the Pythagoreans.
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  2. #12
    Senior Member evilrobot's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbah View Post
    The authors I've read on the topic are Sandra Maitri and A.H. Almaas. They say that the personality isn't the ultimate truth of who you are because personality is basically just the way your ego consciousness is constructed. So it's a set of mental ideas and images that you've identified with as who you are, although lots of them are false or inaccurate because they're outdated or mistaken, so how can some inaccurate ideas really have existence. For them, there is the Enneagram that points to the nine basic worldviews that shape the psychological personality (and its suffering), but there is another layer which is the nine aspects of your true being beyond personality.

    Maitri and Almaas have an Eastern disdain for the “self” and/or “personality”, which they view as confining illusions people cling to, especially in the West. There are roughly two main schools of the Enneagram. The Don Riso school, which focuses on ego improvement, and the more esoteric approach of Maitri and Almaas, which focuses on transcending the ego/self altogether – they veiw the Enneagram as a map you use to accompish this.
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    If things are not what they seem, and we are forever reminded that this is the case—then it must also be observed that enough of us ignore this truth to keep the world from collapsing. –Thomas Ligotti, The Mystics of Muelenberg

  3. #13
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilrobot View Post
    Maitri and Almaas have an Eastern disdain for the “self” and/or “personality”, which they view as confining illusions people cling to, especially in the West. There are roughly two main schools of the Enneagram. The Don Riso school, which focuses on ego improvement, and the more esoteric approach of Maitri and Almaas, which focuses on transcending the ego/self altogether – they veiw the Enneagram as a map you use to accompish this.
    In The Wisdom of the Enneagram, Riso and Hudson do actually stress catching the habits of the personality as they arise so that you don't have to act them out and can stop clinging to them, and they cite Almaas as one of their teachers and influences. The idea is that when observing and accepting non-judgmentally our thoughts and feelings and so seeing the motivations behind them (i.e. when mindful), we are much freer to choose whether to act out those of the personality this time, and find that we don't really want to anymore when we see them for what they are. They describe the process as not shedding the personality altogether, but making it more transparent and flexible, "something we drive instead of something that drives us". They basically say that the personality distracts us from and disguises our true selves. The margins are full of quotes like "we don't need to improve ourselves, we just need to let go of what blocks our heart" (Jack Kornfield).

  4. #14
    Feelin' FiNe speculative's Avatar
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    Yes, in a nutshell it seems like Riso & Hudson agree that it would be great to completely shed the personality, but that in reality this is not a realistic goal to shoot for...
    "How can I be, all I want to be,
    When all I want to do is strip away these stilled constraints
    And crush this charade, shred this sad, masquerade"
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGeq5v7L3WM

  5. #15
    Senior Member the state i am in's Avatar
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    spirituality is about enlightenment, awareness, etc.

    all mystical religions have this as the centerpiece. they are focused on a form of communion that creates awareness thru connection. it's also especially feely bc it creates a holistic sense of belonging, feeling your place, finding your own liberation from yourself, your past, etc. you find a way to absorb the world and affirm it even in its most glaring contradictions. you find a way to identify with the parts of the world that were once seen as foreign, threatening, and decidedly OTHER to the ego.

    i think this thread is awesome and the fruit of the holy spirit and the kaballah links are really consuming. the idea of a MAP is very strange but makes sense. the lazy tao analogies "the Way" etc.

    spiritual enlightenment is thru art, ritual, and religious expression. it is founded on a perceptual experience, a sudden flash of insight or intuition, a glimpse of something greater. it is existential and metaphysical. it is fucking cosmic. that these things can only be represented on a map, that there is a journey that must be undertaken, is to say that our capabilities for experiencing them are predicated on a journey thru time, for we cannot seem them in their simultaneity in one glimpse, grasp their eternal nature, their unfolding, etc.

  6. #16
    Senior Member compulsiverambler's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by speculative View Post
    Yes, in a nutshell it seems like Riso & Hudson agree that it would be great to completely shed the personality, but that in reality this is not a realistic goal to shoot for...
    They see the goal as to shed it in as much as the personality is defined as a set of defence mechanisms, habitual responses and unchallenged beliefs (which is what the Enneagram types all are). The inborn temperament that contributed to the development of these things and the 'true self' will always remain, according to what I gather they believe.

  7. #17
    Senior Member Chloe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jennifer View Post
    Meh. I dislike Palmer.

    I always recommend Riso and Hudson, from a systematic viewpoint. They have the most "coherent" vision of the Ennegram. Palmer seems to be partly cobbled together by hearsay and astrological-style commentary. But with their background Catholicism, you're going to see spirituality and psychology intertwined.

    Really? So what do you think of Maitri? Same as Palmer?

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