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  1. #1
    Courage is immortality Valiant's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Not identifying with the "Four Temperaments".

    You've got that problem, too?
    I am an ENTJ. Yet, I have a hard time seeing how ENTJs fit in with all but the INTJs.

    A four-type group that i'd be able to identify with would consist of:

    ENTJ
    INTJ
    ENFJ
    INFJ

    In short: NJs.

    Re-making it would actually give more symmetry in the MBTI landscape.


    xSxJ's
    xSxP's
    xNxJ's
    xNxP's

    Another idea. These types seem to have more in common than they do with at least half of those in their own temperament:

    ENTP
    ENFP
    INFP
    INTP


    I'm having a hard time pinpointing exactly what I am trying to express here.
    I'm not trying to alienate anyone... Just stating that the current temperaments seem a little off. For example... The ENTP and the ENTJ share three preferences, but when looking at behavior... Big, huge difference.
    Yes, both are extroverted. Yes, both are intuitive. Yes, both are thinkers...
    But that J/P divide is seriously a big thing. It makes P's do what P's do, and J's do something useful (hehe).

    I think the "Idealists" and "Rationals" thing is a sham, to be honest.
    It's all got to do with what people go about doing and how they do it, why they do it.
    NJs, for example... We do what needs to be done, and most things we do have a reason behind it. Sure we can do silly things, too, but common sense is almost as strong as in the SJ-department, even if we approach things a bit differently.

    NPs on the other hand... You're plain crazy
    That can be good, but it's very frustrating when we can't depend on you without holding you at gunpoint. You're even worse than the SPs, because you're not as conventional, and nothing you do has a foundation in common sense, rules/law, tradition or even logic.


    What I am saying is that while how different Js might have different methods to arrive at what is often the same point.
    P's doesn't really know the meaning of "point" They don't want what the J's want at all most of the time, even if they'd probably be able to understand the J's reasoning if they think somewhat alike sometimes, if they accidentally managed to agree on something instead of acting like mules with either a lack of interpersonal skills or emotional problems, on crack and whiskey.


    And yes, I am aware that I am biased and overly critical.
    It's not super-serious. But NPs really do tick me off enormously sometimes.

    Besides all that...
    Does anyone agree that the NJ, SJ, NP, SP order?

    Mightier than the tread of marching armies is the power of an idea whose time has come

  2. #2
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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  3. #3
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    This is interesting. But that's how one would externally deal with the world. I think when it comes to what's in the mind the initial might be better. I would certainly doubt an INTJ and ENFJ might think in the same way although the conclusion would end up the same.

  4. #4
    Protocol Droid Athenian200's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    This is interesting. But that's how one would externally deal with the world. I think when it comes to what's in the mind the initial might be better. I would certainly doubt an INTJ and ENFJ might think in the same way although the conclusion would end up the same.
    Really? I had always thought the opposite, that NTJs and NFJs think similarly, but show different faces to the world.

    For instance, INTJs and INFJs... we tend to have a strong analytical side, and a strong emotional side. But the INTJ applies their analytical side to the world, makes it their main face, while covering up the emotional side, keeping it a private, secondary thing shared only with a trusted few. While the INFJ applies their emotional side to the world and appears good, covering up their critical side and using it mostly to refine and perfect their responses, sharing it only with certain people or groups where critical expression is well-received.

  5. #5
    Listening Oaky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Really? I had always thought the opposite, that NTJs and NFJs think similarly, but show different faces to the world.

    For instance, INTJs and INFJs... we tend to have a strong analytical side, and a strong emotional side. But the INTJ applies their analytical side to the world, makes it their main face, while covering up the emotional side, keeping it a private, secondary thing shared only with a trusted few. While the INFJ applies their emotional side to the world and appears good, covering up their critical side and using it mostly to refine and perfect their responses, sharing it only with certain people or groups where critical expression is well-received.
    I think that particular difference is one that defines the difference between an NT and an NF.

  6. #6
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Really? I had always thought the opposite, that NTJs and NFJs think similarly, but show different faces to the world.
    I have always thought NFJs and I understand each other. We think alike, and I've sometimes experienced we feel alike about a lot of things. But to the world, we behave very differently. Our top skills are very different. People often say me and my ENFJ friend are exact opposites, but when we talk one on one, we understand each other very well. And we're not even that good of friends.

    EDIT: Then again, ENFJs are known to be excellent people-readers. He might just be rubbing me the right way to get along with me.

  7. #7
    Pose! Salt n' pepper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ragingkatsuki View Post
    I think that particular difference is one that defines the difference between an NT and an NF.
    Yes. I question my ENFJs decisions and motivations A LOT. And he thinks I'm mechanical.

  8. #8
    Senior Member mockingbird's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Athenian200 View Post
    Really? I had always thought the opposite, that NTJs and NFJs think similarly, but show different faces to the world.

    For instance, INTJs and INFJs... we tend to have a strong analytical side, and a strong emotional side. But the INTJ applies their analytical side to the world, makes it their main face, while covering up the emotional side, keeping it a private, secondary thing shared only with a trusted few. While the INFJ applies their emotional side to the world and appears good, covering up their critical side and using it mostly to refine and perfect their responses, sharing it only with certain people or groups where critical expression is well-received.
    Funny you should mention this. I'm married to an INTJ and everyone perceives him as the evil one and me as the angelic one. What they don't realize is that all those ascerbic comments he makes that I correct him for are actually the same things that I'm thinking. I'm just pissed that he is saying them and creating strife.

    But does this really create a greater similarity between me and him than there is between me and an INFP or ENFP? I don't know. My INTJ doesn't get stressed by conflict like I do, obviously. He also doesn't allow his emotions to get in the way of his logical thought process in the way that I often do. This isn't true every time, but it usually is.

    I think the main difference between us though, is that he will usually use his emotions to evaluate what he has already perceived rationally, and I will use logic to evaluate what I have perceived emotionally. We often reach the same conclusions, but our processes are very different.

    I guess it all depends on which difference is more significant to you. The thought process or the end result.
    Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a banana.
    ~ Groucho Marx

  9. #9
    Habitual Fi LineStepper JocktheMotie's Avatar
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    The temperaments are sorted in such a way that make perfect sense in Keirsey's system. If you do not agree that the way Keirsey defines each type is the correct way, then you obviously will not agree with how he sorts his temperaments. NTs are together because they all use abstract language and exhibit utilitarian tool usage. As a contrast, all SPs use concrete language and utilitarian tool usage, not just STs. NFs and SJs all exhibit cooperative tendencies in regards to groups and problems. That's why they're sorted in such a way. Not because the letters match up.

    I think it was a mistake for Keirsey to use MBTI terminology with his system, because it leads to exactly this kind of confusion.



  10. #10
    Senior Member Moiety's Avatar
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    Yes, I feel I have more in common with other NPs than with NFJs. So yeah, I agree for the most part. Besides, why separate SJs and SPs by their perception functions and then not do the same for the other ones?

    Another possibility is dividing it terms of judging functions : TP TJ FP FJ, but I think how we see the world influences how we act and not as much the other way around.

    EDIT

    Quote Originally Posted by JocktheMotie View Post
    The temperaments are sorted in such a way that make perfect sense in Keirsey's system. If you do not agree that the way Keirsey defines each type is the correct way, then you obviously will not agree with how he sorts his temperaments. NTs are together because they all use abstract language and exhibit utilitarian tool usage. As a contrast, all SPs use concrete language and utilitarian tool usage, not just STs. NFs and SJs all exhibit cooperative tendencies in regards to groups and problems. That's why they're sorted in such a way. Not because the letters match up.

    I think it was a mistake for Keirsey to use MBTI terminology with his system, because it leads to exactly this kind of confusion.
    Interesting. I had never heard of this before. I don't see how an ESFP is any less fond of cooperative tendencies than an ENFP though (as an example):

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